Kyle Dubas appreciation / hot seat discussion ***Mod warning in OP***

[Morbo]

I'm a Habs fan that lives in Toronto. I don't hate the Leafs but I'm basically indifferent. I like to think I'm pretty unbiased when it comes to the Leafs.

This is basically the best Leafs roster I can remember. You guys are complaining about a $1M over-payment to some of the best players in the entire league. I used to squint at the Leafs roster and grimace at your top players.

I hope that provides some perspective.

Probably not, but a sincere thanks for trying.

 

[NightTrain1]

I mean at some point logic has to penetrate the heads of even the most stubborn....yes? no?

How about this then. At least for this season only lets look at the 3 mill over-payment for THREE STARS, and then remove the 2.75million that Dubas got Colorado to retain on the 9th highest scoring defense-man of the past three season combined.

 

[LeafsLegendAkiBerg]

Considering Muzzin was acquired for last year's playoff run plus this season and this season's playoff run is also better use of assets as well instead of one playoff run

On top of that, Muzzin is a top 4 defenseman which has way more value than a 4th line center, especially one like Plekanec. The only way Cynic's comparison would kind of make sense is if those 4th line centers were top 6 forwards that had two years on their contract. Just a really bad faith comparison all around.

 

[Pocket Hercules]

With all the Dubas negativity due to RFA signings, here is my list of Leaf GMs since 1970 (worst to best),

Gord Stellick (Courtnall for Kordic)
John Ferguson Jr. (Rask for Raycroft and then trades for Toscola)
Floyd Smith (1991 1st round pick (#3-Scott Niedermayer) for Tom Kurvers)
Brian Burke -Seguin, Hamilton and Knight for Kessel -no playoff appearances
Jerry MacNamarra -Meh -3 playoff appearances in 7 seasons
Dave Nonnis -Meh -1 playoff appearance and the Phaneuf extension
Punch Imlach -destroys the team by trading McDonald to spite Sittler and subsequently trade Sittler
Ken Dryden -Lots of talk and 1 playoff appearance
Kyle Dubas (current GM -moves up or down based on future performance)
Lou Lamirello -lays groundwork for current team
Jim Gregory -8 playoff appearances but trades Carlyle and Ferguson for Burrows after beating #1 seed Islanders
Cliff Fletcher -acquired Doug Gilmour and Mats Sundin in blockbuster deals - 4 playoff appearances
Pat Quinn -1 division title and 4 playoff appearances in 4 seasons

Great coach, mediocre GM imo.

 

[KPower]

I'm a Habs fan that lives in Toronto. I don't hate the Leafs but I'm basically indifferent. I like to think I'm pretty unbiased when it comes to the Leafs.

This is basically the best Leafs roster I can remember. You guys are complaining about a $1M over-payment to some of the best players in the entire league. I used to squint at the Leafs roster and grimace at your top players.

I hope that provides some perspective.

There’s a small number of leaf fans that hate the leafs or life in general.

Or both.

 

[ToneDog]

Great coach, mediocre GM imo.

Fletch would have been #1 had he not required Wendel and traded for Stempniak. I do not recall any dumb moves by Quinn but yeah he was a better coach than GM. Overall Leafs have not had many good GMs since the original Imlach. The bar is not too high for Dubas to surpass.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Fletch would have been #1 had he not required Wendel and traded for Stempniak. I do not recall any dumb moves by Quinn but yeah he was a better coach than GM. Overall Leafs have not had many good GMs since the original Imlach. The bar is not too high for Dubas to surpass.

Original Fletcher was good. Fletcher part deux was horrendous. Apart from the Stempniak thing he also killed trade value on our players, publicly belittled them, and managed to leave us with MORE money committed to players than what he started with and did so with the likes of Hollweg etc. Oh and traded for a player who upon listening to who he described was not even the same player he thought he landed.

Utter mess the second time around. Fletch really does need his two tenures dealt with separately.

Not sure how to rank Lou. Only 5 players in the organization from Lou's tenure (2 current NHLers - one of which was 1st overall), looking like NHLers, maybe a couple more.

 

[deprw]

Fletch would have been #1 had he not required Wendel and traded for Stempniak. I do not recall any dumb moves by Quinn but yeah he was a better coach than GM. Overall Leafs have not had many good GMs since the original Imlach. The bar is not too high for Dubas to surpass.

Add signing Jeff Finger as Kurt Sauer to that list. It was bizarre move back then and I think Jeff Finger felt that he had won in a lottery. Second tenure of Cliff Fletcher wasn't that great in overall, but it was at the darkest of times, so I wouldn't rate his legacy trough that. In his prime Fletcher was money for us.

In overall when we look that list, it's debatable if we can get better GM if we're going to get rid of Kyle Dubas (if we roll the dice). I can't think better and available GM candidate at the moment. In hindsight all those previous GMs have made costly mistakes, but haven't shown anything exceptional (I say Fletchers first tenure waste really close to that).

What I like about Dubas is that we groomed him. He has shared philosophy with Shanahan, that we should build from ground up and look the whole picture. We have good development system in place, great farm system and great team in place. Dubas has been building our foundation.

Would I like to change that now? Never. I hope Lou could have handled those big RFA negotiations, but in big picture I wouldn't change Dubas to Lou. Yet to be seen if Mark Hunter is better GM, if he ever get to that point, that there is a team knocking on his door and his willing to leave London for that.

 

[ACC1224]

Fletch would have been #1 had he not required Wendel and traded for Stempniak. I do not recall any dumb moves by Quinn but yeah he was a better coach than GM. Overall Leafs have not had many good GMs since the original Imlach. The bar is not too high for Dubas to surpass.

Fletcher is dead to me after the Sundin fiasco.
I'll give him my annual 'boo' tomorrow night.

 

[Foxtail]

The 2015 draft picks deserve to be fully attributed to Hunter. That wasn’t Dubas. So remove Marner and Dermott at the very least.

Not to nit pick here but didn't Hunter want Konecny but Dubas and his analytics won out and they picked Dermott instead ? I believe Hunter stated this.

 

[93LEAFS]

Not to nit pick here but didn't Hunter want Konecny but Dubas and his analytics won out and they picked Dermott instead ? I believe Hunter stated this.

No, Dubas won out on the trade down. Fully Hunters pick though.

 

[Foxtail]

No, Dubas won out on the trade down. Fully Hunters pick though.

Ahh ok but Hunter was after Konecny before the trade down correct?

 

[93LEAFS]

Ahh ok but Hunter was after Konecny before the trade down correct?

Yes.

 

[Foxtail]

Yes.

Ok so then they took Hunter's next on the list ? Makes sense as that was his main gig. It's too bad they couldn't have him stay, he has an eye for talent.

 

[Pocket Hercules]

Fletch would have been #1 had he not required Wendel and traded for Stempniak. I do not recall any dumb moves by Quinn but yeah he was a better coach than GM. Overall Leafs have not had many good GMs since the original Imlach. The bar is not too high for Dubas to surpass.

For one, he put Steve Sullivan on waivers because he was "too small". 2 years later, he ends up finishing with 75 pts as a Blackhawk. Could of used him during our cup runs. Trading away and not re-signing Yanic Perrault in both his tenures as a Leaf was pretty stupid considering he went down as one of best face-off in NHL history. Our drafting and development under him was also abysmal...and probably the worst in the league.

The Nolan trade was also pretty bad in retrospect as Nolan was on the shelf after a vicious cross-check to the back by Robyn Regehr when we traded for him -- and he had recurring back problems ever since. We ended giving up an inevitable Selke Nominee (Alyn MacCauley), a 30 goal Number #1 Centre (Brad Boyes), and a 1st round pick in return. Pretty bad looking back on it.

He did sign Mogilny, but he was tight with him during his Vancouver days. How much salesmanship and persuasion did he really need to bring him here?

Overall, with the resources he had at his disposal, and the pull he had with Larry T, he should of done alot when he was GM here.

 

[therealkoho]

I wonder if all this soul searching will do anything to change what should just remain buried in the past

The Seasons is about to start, get this negative horse-puckey out of your heads and let's get excited for what's about to happen

 

[rumman]

Fletch would have been #1 had he not required Wendel and traded for Stempniak. I do not recall any dumb moves by Quinn but yeah he was a better coach than GM. Overall Leafs have not had many good GMs since the original Imlach. The bar is not too high for Dubas to surpass.

Quinn had no time for Jason Smith who turned out to be a pretty darn good D man, that's all that immediately comes to mind for me.

 

[ToneDog]

Quinn had no time for Jason Smith who turned out to be a pretty darn good D man, that's all that immediately comes to mind for me.

Every GM is going to make mistakes. The key is not to make exceptionally dumb mistakes like Courtnall for Kordic, 1st for Kurvers, Kessel for 2 1sts and a second with no lottery protection, Rask instead of Pogge for Raycroft, Finger and Clarkson signings. So far, Dubas has not made any of those. His blunder will be the gifts he gave the 3 amigos if they do not win the SC.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Every GM is going to make mistakes. The key is not to make exceptionally dumb mistakes like Courtnall for Kordic, 1st for Kurvers, Kessel for 2 1sts and a second with no lottery protection, Rask instead of Pogge for Raycroft, Finger and Clarkson signings. So far, Dubas has not made any of those. His blunder will be the gifts he gave the 3 amigos if they do not win the SC.

Indeed. At the end of the day he has 2 contracts that you could reasonably argue as overpays and they belong to players that finished 16th and 22nd in the entire league in pts/gp at 21 and 22 years of age. Personally, I can live with that.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Add signing Jeff Finger as Kurt Sauer to that list. It was bizarre move back then and I think Jeff Finger felt that he had won in a lottery. Second tenure of Cliff Fletcher wasn't that great in overall, but it was at the darkest of times, so I wouldn't rate his legacy trough that. In his prime Fletcher was money for us.

In overall when we look that list, it's debatable if we can get better GM if we're going to get rid of Kyle Dubas (if we roll the dice). I can't think better and available GM candidate at the moment. In hindsight all those previous GMs have made costly mistakes, but haven't shown anything exceptional (I say Fletchers first tenure waste really close to that).

What I like about Dubas is that we groomed him. He has shared philosophy with Shanahan, that we should build from ground up and look the whole picture. We have good development system in place, great farm system and great team in place. Dubas has been building our foundation.

Would I like to change that now? Never. I hope Lou could have handled those big RFA negotiations, but in big picture I wouldn't change Dubas to Lou. Yet to be seen if Mark Hunter is better GM, if he ever get to that point, that there is a team knocking on his door and his willing to leave London for that.

I agree with most of what you have here but I don't understand why people think Lou would've done a better job of negotiating the RFA contracts. He just gave Brock Nelson a 6M AAV and he's only hit 50 pts once. And people think the Nylander contract was Dubas getting bent over. He also gave out a 3 yr , 6M contract to a 37 year old declining Marleau.

I think Nylander was over paid by about 400k but still think he is gonna be worth what he got. I think Matthews should have gotten the same contract as JT. So a 600k overpay. Marner I feel should be around what Rantanen got. Maybe 10M at the most.

So overall, I would rather overpay those 3 core players by a total of 2M than the over pay that Lou gave the likes of Nelson and Marleau.

 

[moon111]

Today's a new day. What Dubas does cannot be compared to the past. Everything has changed.
How many countless armies sent guys marching into the enemy after the machine gun was deployed?
Dubas has a unique situation which requires unique solutions.
He appears a lot less emotional in his decision making that I would be.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I agree with most of what you have here but I don't understand why people think Lou would've done a better job of negotiating the RFA contracts. He just gave Brock Nelson a 6M AAV and he's only hit 50 pts once. And people think the Nylander contract was Dubas getting bent over. He also gave out a 3 yr , 6M contract to a 37 year old declining Marleau.

I think Nylander was over paid by about 400k but still think he is gonna be worth what he got. I think Matthews should have gotten the same contract as JT. So a 600k overpay. Marner I feel should be around what Rantanen got. Maybe 10M at the most.

So overall, I would rather overpay those 3 core players by a total of 2M than the over pay that Lou gave the likes of Nelson and Marleau.

For whatever reason Lou has a tendency to overpay lesser lights or has beens in either dollars or term. Marleau, Zaitsev, Nelson, Komarov, Martin, etc. Like you, if I am overpaying anywhere, I'd want it to be on prime or entering prime stars. Guys like Kap and AJ got reasonable values. Key is to keep the pipeline full of depth, which to date Dubas has done masterfully.

 

[deprw]

I agree with most of what you have here but I don't understand why people think Lou would've done a better job of negotiating the RFA contracts. He just gave Brock Nelson a 6M AAV and he's only hit 50 pts once. And people think the Nylander contract was Dubas getting bent over. He also gave out a 3 yr , 6M contract to a 37 year old declining Marleau.

I think Nylander was over paid by about 400k but still think he is gonna be worth what he got. I think Matthews should have gotten the same contract as JT. So a 600k overpay. Marner I feel should be around what Rantanen got. Maybe 10M at the most.

So overall, I would rather overpay those 3 core players by a total of 2M than the over pay that Lou gave the likes of Nelson and Marleau.

I just feel that Lamoriello would have been better negotiator with Matthews and Marner, because of his experience. I don't know if he could have squeezed better deal from Nylander, but I think he could have done something with Matthews and Marner. In overall I believe that we made the right choice at the right time, when we chose Dubas over Lou or Hunter. I don't think that Lamoriello would have got this team together.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Fletcher is dead to me after the Sundin fiasco.
I'll give him my annual 'boo' tomorrow night.

That and he actually managed to f*** up a "tear down". Steen/Cola for Stempiak, Jeff Finger, trading up for Schenn... It was a lot of nonsense in a short period of time.

 

[Hustlr]

Don’t care what the haters say, we have a team built for now and the future. We haven’t had close to this in my entire lifetime. I’m not going to drive a good dude out of town.

What are we criticizing him for? Contracts? What else you got? Drafting? Please list your concerns below.