Value of: Kotkaniemi extension

[jfhabs]

By your definition Sebastian Aho is sheltered, too, and thus not any good and doesn't drive play.

Numbers from Evolving-Hockey.

Way to go, that's how to have a healthy hockey discussion.
Sure, KK is one of your best play driver, not sheltered at all, elite boardplay.
Good talk!

 

[jfhabs]

By your definition Sebastian Aho is sheltered, too, and thus not any good and doesn't drive play.

Numbers from Evolving-Hockey.

Way to go, that's how to have a healthy hockey discussion.
Sure, KK is one of your best play driver, not sheltered at all, elite boardplay.
Good talk!

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Way to go, that's how to have a healthy hockey discussion.
Sure, KK is one of your best play driver, not sheltered at all, elite boardplay.
Good talk!

Way to go, that's how to have a healthy hockey discussion.
Sure, KK is one of your best play driver, not sheltered at all, elite boardplay.
Good talk!

Listen man... We got it... you don't watch the Canes or know what you're talking about here... the post was bad enough the first time... you really didn't need to repeat it.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

View attachment 496046

You don't know what that stat means.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

You don't know what that stat means.

 

[jfhabs]

You don't know what that stat means.

Please enlightened us, because I used the definition from Hockey-reference which seems pretty clear...
The coaching staff is clearly sheltering him, I'm not sure how you can come to another conclusion. They are very careful in how they deploy him.

 

[jfhabs]

Listen man... We got it... you don't watch the Canes or know what you're talking about here... the post was bad enough the first time... you really didn't need to repeat it.

Haha you're such a homer man. KK isn't what you say he is.
I've been a fan of his since the habs drafted him, but he's not what you're saying he is right now by any metric. He's simply not there yet. He might get there one day.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Please enlightened us, because I used the definition from Hockey-reference which seems pretty clear...
The coaching staff is clearly sheltering him, I'm not sure how you can come to another conclusion. They are very careful in how they deploy him.

View attachment 496061

Read that formula. He doesn't start 68.8% of his shifts in the offensive zone.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Please enlightened us, because I used the definition from Hockey-reference which seems pretty clear...
The coaching staff is clearly sheltering him, I'm not sure how you can come to another conclusion. They are very careful in how they deploy him.

View attachment 496061

Your claim is that he starts in the offensive zone 68.8% of the time. The denominator in Hockey Reference's calculation is offensive and defensive zone faceoffs. @FlyguyOX posted a chart indicating that nearly as great of a percentage of his faceoffs are in the neutral zone.

The metrics are getting more in depth over time. Shifts obviously don't always stop and end with a faceoff. Of all his zone starts, presumably 5v5, only 13.36% of them started in the offensive zone. 63.98% of those starts were on the fly.

Also, using all situations can skew numbers as well. Kotkaniemi gets a regular PP shift, but doesn't play on the PK. As a result, he will be on the ice for more offensive zone faceoffs than defensive zone faceoffs overall than just 5v5.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

It's worth noting that since the mini pause that the team has played him on the wing again, where he's more needed. His center? The player that eats the toughest minutes on the team: Jordan Staal.

It may not be that the coach doesn't trust him. An alternative explanation is that Kotkaniemi will get deployed like a 4th liner when centering the 4th line.

 

[jfhabs]

Read that formula. He doesn't start 68.8% of his shifts in the offensive zone.

I know it doesn't acount for neutral zone faceoff, but the comparable between dzone vs ozone.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I know it doesn't acount for neutral zone faceoff, but the comparable between dzone vs ozone.

Or on the fly starts. Glad you see the light.

 

[Heffyhoof]

I know it doesn't acount for neutral zone faceoff, but the comparable between dzone vs ozone.

You know your stat is obviously flawed, even without accounting on the fly starts, but you still use it to try dunk on KK and prove a point. Bitter Habs fan as usual, surprised you haven't called him Bambi yet.

 

[Tryamw]

yea cause having KK instead of Dvorak and The Habs would be near the top of the league, what a bunch of nonsense.

6.1 for him was insane and The Habs had no choice but to let him go. Habs haters and Canes fans can laugh all the like but the facts are the facts, he is now on a really good team and he is putting up 3 line numbers at best.

Why would I laugh. 6.1 was technically doable by Montreal but yeah it would have been a poor use of $$$.
If the Canes didn't want Jasperi then they could have made the offer at $1 less the the next stage of compensation. I bet that Montreal would have matched that since a 2nd that reward is just terrible. If I recall the compensation wrong the point still remains.
JK short of a crazy year was not going to earn the contract.

 

[Chrispy]

Please enlightened us, because I used the definition from Hockey-reference which seems pretty clear...
The coaching staff is clearly sheltering him, I'm not sure how you can come to another conclusion. They are very careful in how they deploy him.

View attachment 496061

Kotkaniemi is averaging just over 16 shifts a game on the season according to hockey-reference.

According to FlyguyOX's statistics, that means on average Kotkaniemi gets:

10.3 shifts per game starting on the fly
2.15 shifts per game starting in the offensive zone
2.59 shifts per game starting in the neutral zone
1.08 shifts per game starting in the defensive zone.

So yes, the ratio is just over 2:1 for offensive zone starts to defensive. And that 68% ratio is the difference of one more shift in the offensive zone than in the defensive zone per game out of 16 shifts.

Those are the numbers behind your "sheltered" statistics.

 

[FlyguyOX]

Kotkaniemi is averaging just over 16 shifts a game on the season according to hockey-reference.

According to FlyguyOX's statistics, that means on average Kotkaniemi gets:

10.3 shifts per game starting on the fly
2.15 shifts per game starting in the offensive zone
2.59 shifts per game starting in the neutral zone
1.08 shifts per game starting in the defensive zone.

So yes, the ratio is just over 2:1 for offensive zone starts to defensive. And that 68% ratio is the difference of one more shift in the offensive zone than in the defensive zone per game out of 16 shifts.

Those are the numbers behind your "sheltered" statistics.

per 60 numbers (highly recommending to Evolving-Hockey's great work BTW):

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

The only thing that's different in Montreal and New York right now is the Rangers can count on Panarin, Zibanejad and Fox. In Montreal, we expect 20 yo to be saviors.

So just a Hart contender and Norris winner?

 

[jfhabs]

Kotkaniemi is averaging just over 16 shifts a game on the season according to hockey-reference.

According to FlyguyOX's statistics, that means on average Kotkaniemi gets:

10.3 shifts per game starting on the fly
2.15 shifts per game starting in the offensive zone
2.59 shifts per game starting in the neutral zone
1.08 shifts per game starting in the defensive zone.

So yes, the ratio is just over 2:1 for offensive zone starts to defensive. And that 68% ratio is the difference of one more shift in the offensive zone than in the defensive zone per game out of 16 shifts.

Those are the numbers behind your "sheltered" statistics.

I didn't realize he was deployed on faceoffs so little, true.
It's normally a good stats to evaluate if a player is sheltered or not.
It just means, in his specific scenario the stat I use wasn't the most accurate.
However it doesn't mean he isn't sheltered (he is from the eye test), perhaps other stats like quality of competition might show it?
Do you think he's not being sheltered? I've watched 10+ Canes games this year and he was for sure in those games. He was in Montreal too (because the coaching staff didn't trust him defensively)

He has offensive tools, but he's still lacking in the skating department which makes his defensive game pretty underwhelming. He's still lagging on the play, just like he's been in Montreal.
To me he's the same player he was for the last few years, only playing with a better team creating a little more results.

Reading some of the Canes fans here, it almost feels like he's underpaid at 6.1M.
He's a young player with potential and I've liked him from the start, but he hasn't shown much improvement on his biggest weakness since being drafted.

 

[jfhabs]

You know your stat is obviously flawed, even without accounting on the fly starts, but you still use it to try dunk on KK and prove a point. Bitter Habs fan as usual, surprised you haven't called him Bambi yet.

I'm not bitter at all and I quite like KK. Just don't agree he's a dominant/impactful player right now.

 

[jfhabs]

Or on the fly starts. Glad you see the light.

haha thanks
It's still a normally good stat to evaluate if a player is sheltered or not. Just not in this specific scenario since he's deployed on the fly most of the time.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

haha thanks
It's still a normally good stat to evaluate if a player is sheltered or not. Just not in this specific scenario since he's deployed on the fly most of the time.

Honestly, almost all players are deployed on the fly most of the time.

 

[Chrispy]

I don't think he's being sheltered. I think he's being bounced everywhere. He stepped in for Staal during a Covid absence and played well with Fast and Teravainen. He played some 4C in place of Stepan and gave the 4th line more of an offensive boost. He's also played LW on Aho's line and Trocheck's line.

If I had to pick a word to describe how Kotkaniemi has been used in Carolina, it would be randomly. But I think that's Brind'Amour trying to find a good fit for him early in the season and then trying to make due through Covid absences.

If your claim is he's sheltered unless he plays 1C or 2C, those roles are not available in Carolina barring injury.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I didn't realize he was deployed on faceoffs so little, true.
It's normally a good stats to evaluate if a player is sheltered or not.
It just means, in his specific scenario the stat I use wasn't the most accurate.
However it doesn't mean he isn't sheltered (he is from the eye test), perhaps other stats like quality of competition might show it?
Do you think he's not being sheltered? I've watched 10+ Canes games this year and he was for sure in those games. He was in Montreal too (because the coaching staff didn't trust him defensively)

He has offensive tools, but he's still lacking in the skating department which makes his defensive game pretty underwhelming. He's still lagging on the play, just like he's been in Montreal.
To me he's the same player he was for the last few years, only playing with a better team creating a little more results.

Reading some of the Canes fans here, it almost feels like he's underpaid at 6.1M.
He's a young player with potential and I've liked him from the start, but he hasn't shown much improvement on his biggest weakness since being drafted.

He's not underpaid at $6.1 million. He's overpaid. Well overpaid. It still doesn't mean he isn't playing well.

He hasn't been a liability at all defensively or at least not one that any of us Canes fans seem to notice, but maybe he could be more engaged there. Canes lead the league in goals against by a good margin so it's not really much of a team issue at the moment.

Honestly, in the neutral and offensive zone he is VERY noticeable. Whether he puts up points or not he is always playing physical, being a net front presence and heavy on the forecheck. That's not Canes fans blowing smoke up your ass. He is noticeable on that front pretty much every game you tune in to.

You can stop now though. You've made your 'point'.

 

[jfhabs]

He's not underpaid at $6.1 million. He's overpaid. Well overpaid. It still doesn't mean he isn't playing well.

He hasn't been a liability at all defensively or at least not one that any of us Canes fans seem to notice, but maybe he could be more engaged there. Canes lead the league in goals against by a good margin so it's not really much of a team issue at the moment.

Honestly, in the neutral and offensive zone he is VERY noticeable. Whether he puts up points or not he is always playing physical, being a net front presence and heavy on the forecheck. That's not Canes fans blowing smoke up your ass. He is noticeable on that front pretty much every game you tune in to.

You can stop now though. You've made your 'point'.

40 hits in 31 games... and yes his team makes up for his error defensively. Even your gm said he wasn't good early in the season.

My opinion is different from yours, that's fine. No need to act like a child

 

[jfhabs]

I don't think he's being sheltered. I think he's being bounced everywhere. He stepped in for Staal during a Covid absence and played well with Fast and Teravainen. He played some 4C in place of Stepan and gave the 4th line more of an offensive boost. He's also played LW on Aho's line and Trocheck's line.

If I had to pick a word to describe how Kotkaniemi has been used in Carolina, it would be randomly. But I think that's Brind'Amour trying to find a good fit for him early in the season and then trying to make due through Covid absences.

If your claim is he's sheltered unless he plays 1C or 2C, those roles are not available in Carolina barring injury.

That's not my point at all.
Staal is playing the tough matchup for you guys as a 3rd liner.
Imo he was put on Aho and Trotcheck line to make the move look good, but it backfired early on because he can't keep pace with these guys right now (specially Aho).
Its was the same scenario in Montréal, he was bounced around, trying to find the good fit for him...