Traded Korpisalo (5 years/20M)

[swiftwin]

So, ostensibly you have to accept the idea that no GMs ever make mistakes then as well I guess?

This experiment was always interesting.

Milgram Shock Experiment | Summary | Results | Ethics

Milgram experiment, controversial series of experiments examining obedience to authority conducted by social psychologist Stanley Milgram.

www.simplypsychology.org

I'm always more partial to this experiment when it comes to self proclaimed experts on the internet:

Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Samsquanch]

If we get a forward back in the ADB trade this team has forward depth.

Norris, Formenton, Greig + mystery forward (presumably a capable middle six at least) - that's a big addition to our lineup in itself.

Yeah it would be nice to grab one or two more depth guys. But this is hardly as dire as most make it seem like.

 

[UglyPuckling]

No GM bats 1.000, they all make mistakes but I will trust the hockey people in place who have a lot more experience and knowledge then a bunch of would be GM's who makes trades and signed players on a message board, it's always easier to make trades and signed players when you're by yourself.

I agree, but I don't think the criticism by the majority of posters is about Korpisalo being a bad goalie. I think it's been more about the contract, and specifically the term. As I mentioned, some of what I mentioned in an earlier post was what former GM Brian Burke said i.e., too much term and $s unless Korpisalo plays as a starter. The other panelists agreed.

Like I said in another post, if Korpisalo plays well in 45+ (or even 45) games as the starter, I'll be happy.

 

[UglyPuckling]

Exactly and at some point you have to pull the trigger somewhere. Dorion made it pretty clear that there were net minders they liked (at least one) that could have potentially been explored via trade, but that Ottawa was on NTC lists.

Korpi was their top UFA choice based in the recommendations of both goalie coaches, the AGM, the pro scouts, Forsberg who has a history with him, and his own personal viewings in the playoffs last season.

He may not have been their first choice all things being equal on the trade front, but it does look like it was a well consulted move across the organization. That sounds promising at least.

In the end we only have the facts surrounding the move we did make, and very little on the moves we didn’t. We’ll never know if there was someone better we could have had unfortunately. We do no that Ottawa is not a desirable destination in general sadly, so even getting a guy like Korpi as a UFA is kind of a win in my books.

I like that his success last year seems like it could be his new lease on life after fixing his hips. Lots of potential for this to be the healthy guy going forward. We’ll have to wait and see.

Dorion giving one example isn't the same thing as knowing what the situation was with all of the alternatives. But, I do agree with the sentence that I bolded. It boils down to assumptions imho and how people want to interpret the little info that is actually available. I mean, I can't see how big the iceberg is below the surface, but I do know a lot of it is beneath the surface.

But, more importantly, I don't think the criticism by the majority of posters is about Korpisalo being a bad goalie. I think it's been more about the contract, and specifically the term. As I mentioned, some of what I mentioned in an earlier post was what former GM Brian Burke said i.e., too much term and $s unless Korpisalo plays as a starter. The other panelists agreed.

Like I said in another post, if Korpisalo plays in 45+ (or even 45) games as the starter, and plays well, I'll be happy with not only his performance but his contract as well.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

If we get a forward back in the ADB trade this team has forward depth.

Norris, Formenton, Greig + mystery forward (presumably a capable middle six at least) - that's a big addition to our lineup in itself.

Yeah it would be nice to grab one or two more depth guys. But this is hardly as dire as most make it seem like.

I don't want to be that guy, but I can't resist. Formenton is not coming back. Or at least the chances of it seem slim to none. Garrioch reported a 2nd was the ask last year and is now talking a 2nd or a 3rd recently. I believe he said Formenton wants out recently too. Only a matter of time before he's dumped to a US team for a 4th or 5th imo.

 

[Rodzilla]

I don't want to be that guy, but I can't resist. Formenton is not coming back. Or at least the chances of it seem slim to none. Garrioch reported a 2nd was the ask last year and is now talking a 2nd or a 3rd recently. I believe he said Formenton wants out recently too. Only a matter of time before he's dumped to a US team for a 4th or 5th imo.

This whole situation sucks. I really liked him as a player. (If he’s not guilty obviously) I thought he was very solid and played with an edge too

 

[UglyPuckling]

I'm always more partial to this experiment when it comes to self proclaimed experts on the internet:

Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I haven't claimed to be a self proclaimed internet expert but I did post something that Brian Burke said.

I've said this before, but I don't think the criticism by the majority of posters is about Korpisalo being a bad goalie. I think it's been more about the contract, and specifically the term.

Like I said in another post, if Korpisalo plays in 45+ (or even 45) games as the starter, and plays well, I'll be happy. And by happy, I mean happy with the contract and the performance.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Dorion giving one example isn't the same thing about knowing what the situation was with all of the alternatives. But, I do agree with the sentence that I bolded. It boils down to assumptions imho and how people want to interpret the little info that is actually available. I mean, I can't see how big the iceberg is above the surface, but I do know a lot of it is beneath the surface.

But, more importantly, I don't think the criticism by the majority of posters is about Korpisalo being a bad goalie. I think it's been more about the contract, and specifically the term. As I mentioned, some of what I mentioned in an earlier post was what former GM Brian Burke said i.e., too much term and $s unless Korpisalo plays as a starter. The other panelists agreed.

Like I said in another post, if Korpisalo plays well in 45+ (or even 45) games as the starter, I'll be happy with not only his performance but his contract as well.

Yeah by the sounds of it they will tandem the two, so 40 games a piece give or take some streaks and injuries perhaps?

Might be the way to go to have two good tenders making the same as one star guy who has to play more.

As for term, I’m not going to fret over it, it’s the Ottawa tax as far as I’m concerned, everyone seems to need the extra perks.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Brian Burke was saying some of the same things I did about Korpisalo's contract being too long & too expensive if he was a backup or a 1b versus a starter. So, I think I was doing that and would agree with getting some info from someone with experience in the industry.

Like I said, if JK plays well as a starter even if its 45+ games started for multiple years, then I'm OK with the contract.

I guess I do wonder what the thinking is on Sogaard and Merilainen though given the term of the JK contract.

neither are ready for a full time job in the NHL…. Both will benefit from a couple of seasons, or more, in the AHL.

 

[SpezDispenser]

No they're attempting to set expectations low so that when Dorion hops over the bar they've placed on the ground they can trumpet about it on here.

Won't need to trumpet anything. Andlauer has zero allegiance to Dorion and he'll be gone by this time next year guaranteed.

 

[Samsquanch]

I don't want to be that guy, but I can't resist. Formenton is not coming back. Or at least the chances of it seem slim to none. Garrioch reported a 2nd was the ask last year and is now talking a 2nd or a 3rd recently. I believe he said Formenton wants out recently too. Only a matter of time before he's dumped to a US team for a 4th or 5th imo.

I'll be that guy on the other side. And if there's no new charges (which there are not), I'm not ready to cancel his future out as a Senator.

It was an ugly situation for a bunch of stupid kids. It was disappointing and really shady. But it's also not worth ruining his entire life over either. People make mistakes at that age. Horrible ones. And redemption is entirely possible. These situations can be used to teach and to educate others about these kinds of dangers.

And until he's traded for something else, or unless any new developments come to light, I'm considering Formenton a possible part of the Senators future.

 

[UglyPuckling]

Yeah by the sounds of it they will tandem the two, so 40 games a piece give or take some streaks and injuries perhaps?

Might be the way to go to have two good tenders making the same as one star guy who has to play more.

As for term, I’m not going to fret over it, it’s the Ottawa tax as far as I’m concerned, everyone seems to need the extra perks.

If it's a 1a & 1b situation, and both tenders play well (over the contract years), I think it's a little over priced, but the performance and reliable goaltending is the main thing. We will just have to find a little extra cost savings and value elsewhere which I think is plausible.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I don't mind the $4M AAV but 5 years is way too long IMO. I would've been okay with 2 mayyyybe 3 years tops just to mitigate the risk of the signing. Yes, Korpisalo is coming off a pretty good year but he was rather average to below average in seasons prior.

I guess what bothers me the most about the signing is
1) Although Forsberg is recovering from a serious injury, this signing is committing a significant amount of money and term into a goalie that is not a clear upgrade from a healthy Forsberg; and
2) There were rumblings that if we were unable to find a suitable option in net, that Soogard would get promoted full-time to the roster and play in the NHL. Pierre also mentioned in a press conference that he wrote in his notes that Mads was "NHL ready", after watching him play some games last year. Given that context, what is the vision of this signing? You're going to bring in an average vet that blocks your NHL ready young goaltender for the next 5 years? If Soogard takes over the starting job, then you're saddled with an expensive backup with term.

I just find the signing lacks evaluation and foresight. I really hope I'm wrong and that Korpisalo progresses, but it wouldn't surprise me if we find ourselves in another Matt Murray situation in 3 years.

Commenting that a goaltender prospect is NHL ready, is what all GMs are going say….but we all know very few goaltenders start off in the NHL at such a young age, and stick long term…. The vast majority require years of development in the AHL, and MS has youth on his side, and two full seasons in the AHL will work well in the long run, for both MS and the organization….. can’t understand why people want to rush young players into the NHL before they’re ready.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I'll be that guy on the other side. And if there's no new charges (which there are not), I'm not ready to cancel his future out as a Senator.

It was an ugly situation for a bunch of stupid kids. It was disappointing and really shady. But it's also not worth ruining his entire life over either. People make mistakes at that age. Horrible ones. And redemption is entirely possible. These situations can be used to teach and to educate others about these kinds of dangers.

And until he's traded for something else, or unless any new developments come to light, I'm considering Formenton a possible part of the Senators future.

That's fair. I am not going to get in to the specifics as part of my argument for why I think the writing is on the wall, it's the communication from the org and Garrioch all along the way. He's never really addressed by the team much or talked about as an impending addition to the lineup, etc. basically no elaboration, all while Garrioch has been setting the table for what the ask is since last year, and has now lowered it slightly. And now the line recently was Formenton wants a change iirc.

I just don't see it personally, but I am just a guy typing on the internet, so who knows. I'm not writing off him being in the NHL again, just not on this team and personally, I'd put money on that.

 

[Sun God Nika]

It’s extremely hard to give Dorion the benefit of the doubt with goalies.

Trading away Gustafsson, spending assets on Murray and giving him a stupid contract. Cam Talbot. Being part of the management group that dropped Lehner and Bishop to keep Anderson and the Condon and Hammond contracts.

All we can do is give korpi a chance. Goalies usually have their best seasons for the period we have him locked up under and he just had a good year last year. Part of his past is playing in one of the worst teams in the league for a long period of time but he still managed to have flashes of success. I am not expecting him to be a vezina .930 save percentage goalie. But I can see him being what Anderson was which was a goalie you couldn’t blame your losses on and did his job. Unless the opponent made lots of wrap around attempts

If we get a forward back in the ADB trade this team has forward depth.

Norris, Formenton, Greig + mystery forward (presumably a capable middle six at least) - that's a big addition to our lineup in itself.

Yeah it would be nice to grab one or two more depth guys. But this is hardly as dire as most make it seem like.

Formenton isn’t coming back . Reporters aren’t even asking dorion about him

 

[UglyPuckling]

neither are ready for a full time job in the NHL…. Both will benefit from a couple of seasons, or more, in the AHL.

Yes, I agree that these two young tenders need some more seasoning. I guess they could be thinking that it's Forsberg that one of the young tenders would replace. Got to give Sogaard some more games on the big club at some point of course, but they could give some games and bring him along slowly. I'm kind of intrigued by Merilainen too, but I haven't seen much of him to have any idea on whether he'll pan out. The fact that they had to throw Sogaard out there at the end of the year with the 2 starters being injured was a little dicey and not ideal.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Nobody really knows exactly what the market and the alternatives were. Regardless of anybody's position, it's all based on assumptions. Lots of good discussion on this even on this page.

well I would suggest that PD, who has been GM for many years, and a head scout before that, in his capacity of GM, making calls and inquiries about goaltenders a lot over the past couple of seasons, would know what the alter natives were, based on discussions with other GMs of agents of UFAs, and he has made as much of an informed decision as could be made.

No one posting on this site has talked to Agents of GMs and has even an inclination of who was available via trade, and for how much.

 

[Samsquanch]

That's fair. I am not going to get in to the specifics as part of my argument for why I think the writing is on the wall, it's the communication from the org and Garrioch all along the way. He's never really addressed by the team much or talked about as an impending addition to the lineup, etc. basically no elaboration, all while Garrioch has been setting the table for what the ask is since last year, and has now lowered it slightly. And now the line recently was Formenton wants a change iirc.

I just don't see it personally, but I am just a guy typing on the internet, so who knows. I'm not writing off him being in the NHL again, just not on this team and personally, I'd put money on that.

I get that the writing is on the wall. But I also feel like time heals wounds. And if he hasn't he traded yet, there could come a point in time that both sides are willing to come to an agreement together. And perhaps address the issue head on in some way or another.

Wishful thinking I know. But I would like to think we can add another depth forward somehow with his value and/or cap hit if it's not him in the lineup.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Nobody mentioning how Jarry got alot more than Korpisalo, gor the same term?

Jarry was worse than Korpisalo last year and has fewer NHL career games played.

Doesn’t fit the anti PD narrative….

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Shouldn't have trusted Dorion with signing another goalie to a long term deal. Would have preferred a budget signing on a one year deal.

Assen na yo!

Sumimasen

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I get that the writing is on the wall. But I also feel like time heals wounds. And if he hasn't he traded yet, there could come a point in time that both sides are willing to come to an agreement together. And perhaps address the issue head on in some way or another.

Wishful thinking I know. But I would like to think we can add another depth forward somehow with his value and/or cap hit if it's not him in the lineup.

Fair enough. I get hoping, I just think the probability is incredibly low and ultimately he will want a move almost more than anyone. He can go to a nice quiet US city where hockey is an afterthought and I'm sure that's very much preferable to coming to camp in Ottawa and facing question after question about it.

My concern at this point is Bruce said the ask is down to a 3rd and Formenton wants to move. He's a young player available that was fresh of a 20+ goal season and doesn't have the bargaining power for much pay, yet he's still here. It seems not just keeping him but getting value for him is also out the window for whatever reason. That combined with the other JD's sort of skating by it all, makes me think something in the inner circles is known about his role specifically that we aren't privy to, but that's just a guess.

Doesn’t fit the anti PD narrative….

Kyle Dubas is the GM of the Pittsburgh Penguins.

 

[UglyPuckling]

well I would suggest that PD, who has been GM for many years, and a head scout before that, in his capacity of GM, making calls and inquiries about goaltenders a lot over the past couple of seasons, would know what the alter natives were, based on discussions with other GMs of agents of UFAs, and he has made as much of an informed decision as could be made.

No one posting on this site has talked to Agents of GMs and has even an inclination of who was available via trade, and for how much.

Well, when Dorion doesn't even ask Debrincat about an extension, I guess people are bound to wonder what he does versus what he doesn't do. By the appearances, it looks like he gets locked on to a specific target. He did this with Duchene as well. And, then there's the Murray situation. But, at any rate, people are making a lot of assumptions regardless of which side of the argument they are on.

 

[Yak]

Goalies are so hard to predict. Although Dorion picking the wrong goalie is always a easy win.

Korpo was best of the UFA goalies and he got him in a over payment. Let's face it, it's only way we get UFA's to come here. Dorion said their were some for trade but we were on their no trade list. Makes getting a good goalie tough to obtain.

If we can get a Healthy Korpo-Forsberg tandem we will make the playoffs.

Looking at the playoffs a lot of the 'elite' goalies don't always get you their. Is not always the case but this is the cards we have been dealt.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Goalies are so hard to predict. Although Dorion picking the wrong goalie is always a easy win.

Korpo was best of the UFA goalies and he got him in a over payment. Let's face it, it's only way we get UFA's to come here. Dorion said their were some for trade but we were on their no trade list. Makes getting a good goalie tough to obtain.

If we can get a Healthy Korpo-Forsberg tandem we will make the playoffs.

Looking at the playoffs a lot of the 'elite' goalies don't always get you their. Is not always the case but this is the cards we have been dealt.

It's a hard reality to accept that you don't get a sure thing to contend with.

We basically have 3 or 4 names in a blender, for now it's primarily, Forsberg, Sogaard and Korpisalo, and we just need to hope 1 of the 3 (or another surprise) really takes the reigns.

 

[Laphroaig]

Initially I wasn't overly thrilled with this signing but after reading 18 pages of comments I've realized that not one poster has proposed anything better that would meet with the approval of the posters here. Can you imagine the crying that would be taking place if we'd done nothing?