Kopitar; For or Against a trade if it comes to it?

[damacles1156]

This happens when you play a defensive system and have garbage wingers like Brown/Lewis/Williams.

It is impressive to see someone be so wrong and just keep going.

Kopitar scored 34 goals with Ryan Smyth and Dustin Brown as his wingers before.

The Winger excuse is just that, an excuse.

Kopitar is capable of scoring 30+ goals a year regardless of Wingers, I truly believe that. The only person or thing stopping him, is himself.

On a side note, I am going to be glad when the GM's (trashcan) Eight year contracts in the new CBA. Eight years is just too long, when most of the players hit UFA at age 27/28/29.

 

[Reclamation Project]

Five years max would be awesome. Never gonna happen though.

 

[damacles1156]

Five years max would be awesome. Never gonna happen though.

The GM's will push for Five, but probably settle on Six years, just like an NFL model. The next CBA is going to be a war again. Having players locked up to big cap dollars until ages 34/35, is just salary cap suicide.

 

[KingsFan7824]

This happens when you play a defensive system and have garbage wingers like Brown/Lewis/Williams.

Kopitar had 29 goals in 13-14. Brown and Williams had basically the same stats in 13-14 as they did in 14-15, but Lewis jumped up 14 points.

What helped to bring Kopitar's goals and shots down to career lows in a full season is probably having Gaborik on his wing. That combo worked so well in the 2014 playoffs, but Kopitar didn't score a goal after Game 7 against Anaheim. He went 12 games without a goal, and the Kings still outscored the Hawks, and won the Cup. Maybe more amazing than 3 Game 7 road wins. Unless the Kings are getting Gaborik and Williams type production in the 2014 playoffs again, you sort of need your #1 center to score here and there.

Kopitar can't average fewer shots per game than Lewis. Not unless his sh% is at like 20%.

 

[likid]

I think what likid is saying is that loyalty is more important than brass tacks, not that money and term is literally not important. I.e., playing hardball with Kopitar now sort of implies that he's not worth rewarding, and that after January, it won't matter if DL breaks the bank for him, the relationship will have already taken its damage.

Yes, that was my point and I appologise if my English is not good enough to clearly explain what I wanted to tell.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Yes, that was my point and I appologise if my English is not good enough to clearly explain what I wanted to tell.

No I got it, no worries!

You mean 16 goals in 82 games guy? No matter how hard you try to deflect the 100 shots less in the season, and too few goals last season, it happened. That kind of play from Kopitar will not keep the Kings at a contending level.

Dean obviously has an offer on the table, as does Kopitar's agent. We don't know if the two sides are attempting to meet in the middle, or if they are standing by their original offers. Some of you see that, if it is the situation, as Dean playing hardball. I say that's Kopitar's agent needing to get a reality check. The agent could be playing hardball as well.

Hardball by Dean would be saying that he refuses to negotiate at all until Kopitar proves something this season. Right now it's simply a case of Dean saying he doesn't like the agent's proposed contract.

I'ts not a deflection, I'm with you there, and I think Kopitar's 'playmaking' is a result of his shooting. I'm just pointing out some important info from last season as you're using it as evidence that I disagree with, such as 'goals' as the measure of 'total offense' and a signal of Kopitar's decline.

That being said, to the others suggesting it's his linemates' fault, others have already pointed out he's put up more with less, so I'm not buying that either. Obviously his total points come down if his linemates can't finish, and last year was a complete circus in every way anyway, but with former 30- and 40-goal scoring linemates, I'm not so certain it's effective to evaluate Kopitar on goals alone. Total points is my measure for his success this year and I think it's clear to see why, but yes, I'd also think it's most important for his shots to go up.

 

[Fishhead]

The fatigue factor for last season is being underestimated here. It was one of the first things that Jim Fox talked about on the telecast last night. Even Justin Williams has mentioned this before in an interview, and he is the last person that makes excuses.

It's why numbers were pretty much down across the board for everyone, except for those that had plenty of room for upward mobility. Think of the minutes our top guys have played over 3 years in a demanding system. Then throw in everything else that went wrong last year. Kopitar's numbers from last year shouldn't be ignored, but surely taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Trolfoli]

Kopitar scored 34 goals with Ryan Smyth and Dustin Brown as his wingers before.

The Winger excuse is just that, an excuse.

Kopitar is capable of scoring 30+ goals a year regardless of Wingers, I truly believe that. The only person or thing stopping him, is himself.

On a side note, I am going to be glad when the GM's (trashcan) Eight year contracts in the new CBA. Eight years is just too long, when most of the players hit UFA at age 27/28/29.

Are you serious with this ****? Look at the 70's line... a lot of their shots are generated from their line mates making a play and passing the puck to set up a good chance. When you have guys like Lewis, who can't pass, or Brown who won't pass, Kopitar isn't going to be getting the puck in scoring areas. The result is Kopitar either goes 1 on 4 (with the Kings breakout the other team is back on defense) or sitting back in a defensive position. If you want more out of Kopitar get him some ****ing help. Not to mention it's difficult to sustain offensive zone pressure with guys like Brown/Lewis.

When Kopitar was lighting it up with Smyth/Brown was that before he was recognized as one of the top centers in the league that teams covered specifically in their game plans?

Edit: Gaborik will set Kopitar up for some chances, but when was the last time anyone saw Brown/Lewis set up a decent chance for Kopitar vs putting a bad shot on goal. Lewis generating more shots per game is exactly what I'm talking about (if that's true). Kopitar needs guys that will pass him back the puck.

Not to mention when you have a player like Kopitar struggling the team needs to ask how to improve things.

Brown/Lewis both had **** years last year. Ok it was Lewis' best year ever, and still ****. Hence the Lucic trade.

 

[PJ Kings Hockey]

No I got it, no worries!



I'ts not a deflection, I'm with you there, and I think Kopitar's 'playmaking' is a result of his shooting. I'm just pointing out some important info from last season as you're using it as evidence that I disagree with, such as 'goals' as the measure of 'total offense' and a signal of Kopitar's decline.

That being said, to the others suggesting it's his linemates' fault, others have already pointed out he's put up more with less, so I'm not buying that either. Obviously his total points come down if his linemates can't finish, and last year was a complete circus in every way anyway, but with former 30- and 40-goal scoring linemates, I'm not so certain it's effective to evaluate Kopitar on goals alone. Total points is my measure for his success this year and I think it's clear to see why, but yes, I'd also think it's most important for his shots to go up.

Kopi is our top point-getter year after year, which is one of the reasons he is so valuable to the team. But we also have to look at goals scored in those crucial times. There is a value to being "clutch." Jason Lewis did a piece on this: Impact Plays, Timeliness, and the Mystique of Justin Williams Kopi was tops is impact playmaking by a little, but 4th in impact goals, being lesser than Gaborik, Carter and Toffoli by a bigger margin. I'd ask Jason to tell me if Kopi has been as clutch in the last season as before. Does it matter that he's not scoring those impact goals himself that we'd expect a 1C to score?

Kopitar is so talented and valuable that it's frustrating to see him not perform as well as a lot of us think he can.

 

[damacles1156]

Are you serious with this ****? Look at the 70's line... a lot of their shots are generated from their line mates making a play and passing the puck to set up a good chance. When you have guys like Lewis, who can't pass, or Brown who won't pass, Kopitar isn't going to be getting the puck in scoring areas. The result is Kopitar either goes 1 on 4 (with the Kings breakout the other team is back on defense) or sitting back in a defensive position. If you want more out of Kopitar get him some ****ing help. Not to mention it's difficult to sustain offensive zone pressure with guys like Brown/Lewis.

When Kopitar was lighting it up with Smyth/Brown was that before he was recognized as one of the top centers in the league that teams covered specifically in their game plans?

Edit: Gaborik will set Kopitar up for some chances, but when was the last time anyone saw Brown/Lewis set up a decent chance for Kopitar vs putting a bad shot on goal. Lewis generating more shots per game is exactly what I'm talking about (if that's true). Kopitar needs guys that will pass him back the puck.

Not to mention when you have a player like Kopitar struggling the team needs to ask how to improve things.

Brown/Lewis both had **** years last year. Ok it was Lewis' best year ever, and still ****. Hence the Lucic trade.

I am convinced you haven't watched the Kings at all the past decade

Kopitar was more draped with D (before!!) his rise to star Center, Kopitar was all the Kings had, back in the 2006-2010 days.

Kopitar has more freedom now then he has ever had on the ice, is also more of a complete player. Gaborik is the best winger Kopitar has ever had. Jeff Carter is the best second line Center the Kings have ever iced in the past decade and a half.

Where have you been for the past two decades ?

Stop with this garbage of Kopitar doesn't play with any good players, and the opposing D only has to cover Kopitar. The only person stopping Kopitar from having offensive success, is himself.

 

[Trolfoli]

I am convinced you haven't watched the Kings at all the past decade

Kopitar was more draped with D (before!!) his rise to star Center, Kopitar was all the Kings had, back in the 2006-2010 days.

Kopitar has more freedom now then he has ever had on the ice, is also more of a complete player. Gaborik is the best winger Kopitar has ever had. Jeff Carter is the best second line Center the Kings have ever iced in the past decade and a half.

Where have you been for the past two decades ?

Stop with this garbage of Kopitar doesn't play with any good players, and the opposing D only has to cover Kopitar.

It's really easy, Kopitar can't go out and produce at a high level when he has guys like Lewis/Brown tanking the line. It is simply too much to ask to get the hardest matchups while carrying scrubs and still be expected to produce.

By all means result to attacking me instead of grasping a really simple concept.

I'm glad you've moved past the "Pearson isn't an NHL player".


Edit: Maybe Kopitar has just bought into the "Sutter defense only" system?

Still lead the team in scoring, with the anchors known as Brown/Lewis

 

[damacles1156]

It's really easy, Kopitar can't go out and produce at a high level when he has guys like Lewis/Brown tanking the line. It is simply too much to ask to get the hardest matchups while carrying scrubs and still be expected to produce.

By all means result to attacking me instead of grasping a really simple concept.

I'm glad you've moved past the "Pearson isn't an NHL player".

Except that Kopitar has already done that, produce with scrubs like you harp on.

Career years (with scrubs, as you put it)

You don't have a point to make at all, you're just rambling about nothing at this point.

 

[damacles1156]

I mean, Ive read it all in this thread.

Kopitar is now the victim of having a, 40G(former) scorer on his wing in Gabo, and what use to be perennial 20+G scorers in Williams and Brown.

But it's Sutter/Lombardi/Lewis fault...Cause Kopitar played a whole, What ? maybe 25 games total, (combined) over the last Seven years with Lewis on his Wing ?

Absolutely, RIDICULOUS.

 

[Fishhead]

Even with good players in good situations Kopitar wasn't shooting.

Here is a breakdown of shots per minute on the powerplay last year:

Muzzin: .24
Sekera: .23
Williams: .22
Gaborik: .21
Doughty: .21
Carter: .18
Toffoli: .18
Martinez: .17
Brown: .15
Richards: .15
McBain: .15
Pearson: .11
Kopitar: .11
Stoll: .10

One shot every 5 powerplays is ridiculous given his tools.

 

[theMajor]

I don't see why. It's not an anti-Kopitar post. Some of you are so in love with the players (e.g. Mike Richards) that as soon as someone suggests that they might be slipping a bit, the cheese slips off your cracker. Most people agree that 8 years and $72M is overpayment.

It's a question of is Kopitar going to be able to maintain a level of play that makes the Kings Stanley Cup contenders for the next 3-4 seasons.

Let's see what he does the first 3-4 months of the season, or if he comes out guns blazing maybe sooner, before Dean hands over the keys to the vault.

it has nothing to do with 'being in love with players' and everything to do with paying him what he's earned. 5 years @ 9 mil a year is an open handed slap to the face. Im a Kings fan first and foremost, and I like to think Im looking at this situation objectively. there are 29 other teams in the league that would offer Kopitar better than 5 years @ 9 per. Kopitar had an off season last year, much like most of the Kings. using that one season as a barometer predicting his 'decline' is absolutely insane. Kopi has largely been THE workhorse in the LA Kings org since he signed here. he's earned every right to be paid fairly, which Im sure he will be.

 

[damacles1156]

it has nothing to do with 'being in love with players' and everything to do with paying him what he's earned. 5 years @ 9 mil a year is an open handed slap to the face. Im a Kings fan first and foremost, and I like to think Im looking at this situation objectively. there are 29 other teams in the league that would offer Kopitar better than 5 years @ 9 per. Kopitar had an off season last year, much like most of the Kings. using that one season as a barometer predicting his 'decline' is absolutely insane. Kopi has largely been THE workhorse in the LA Kings org since he signed here. he's earned every right to be paid fairly, which Im sure he will be.

Dustin Brown earned his contract. (folks want his contract gone)

Mike Richards earned his from Philly.

Scott Gomez earned his as well, so on and so forth.

Brad Richards ETc.

 

[Captain Mittens*]

Even with good players in good situations Kopitar wasn't shooting.

Here is a breakdown of shots per minute on the powerplay last year:

Muzzin: .24
Sekera: .23
Williams: .22
Gaborik: .21
Doughty: .21
Carter: .18
Toffoli: .18
Martinez: .17
Brown: .15
Richards: .15
McBain: .15
Pearson: .11
Kopitar: .11
Stoll: .10

One shot every 5 powerplays is ridiculous given his tools.

I think it's time to put one of those good dog/bad dog collars around his neck and shock him when he doesn't shoot and give him a milk bone when he shoots

 

[theMajor]

Dustin Brown earned his contract. (folks want his contract gone)

Mike Richards earned his from Philly.

Scott Gomez earned his as well, so on and so forth.

Brad Richards ETc.

so because some players dont live up to their contracts, Kopi should be paid less than what he deserves? I dont understand what you are getting at.
plus, Kopitar is better than literally every player you just mentioned....

 

[kingsholygrail]

I'm more amazed that with 0 regular season games, people are already *****ing about Kopitar's performance for the upcoming season.

 

[scryan]

Even with good players in good situations Kopitar wasn't shooting.

Here is a breakdown of shots per minute on the powerplay last year:

Muzzin: .24
Sekera: .23
Williams: .22
Gaborik: .21
Doughty: .21
Carter: .18
Toffoli: .18
Martinez: .17
Brown: .15
Richards: .15
McBain: .15
Pearson: .11
Kopitar: .11
Stoll: .10

One shot every 5 powerplays is ridiculous given his tools.

Damn, Pearson lower then I woulda thought. I'm far to lazy to look up data, but would be curious to know how much PP time he got, and how many PP goals he sank.

I know he is not really one of our shooters, but I am big on the kid, and refuse to let you guys ignore that he went out last season as one of our highest scorers. Granted he had a hot streak to start (I know... always the first reply I get to that comment), but kid scores goals.

I don't pay enough attention to shorthanded or whatever, but interesting to see Toff and Carter mid pack. Interesting to see the guys leading are not necessarily the ones who put up quality shots (Muzzin, Drew)

Granted, it explicit says shots per minute... but are these actually shot attempts a la corsi, or recorded shots on goal?

I'm more amazed that with 0 regular season games, people are already *****ing about Kopitar's performance for the upcoming season.

His shots per minute were incredibly worrisome this offseason.

 

[damacles1156]

so because some players dont live up to their contracts, Kopi should be paid less than what he deserves? I dont understand what you are getting at.
plus, Kopitar is better than literally every player you just mentioned....

It means you should proceed with caution. when you are going to pay a player for past accomplishment; when the back half of his contract happens when the player is on the wrong side of 30 years of age.

 

[Kurrilino]

Kopitar would be at 9M, based on the contracts given to similar players.
So a Toews 10,5 is overpayment, 9M would be fair.

Wait what ???

Nikita Kucherov and Mark Stone make 9 Mill ?
Well Mark Stone has even 10 more goals so what do you wanna pay him 15 mil ??
Ondrej Palat is getting 3.3 mill. So i was generous offering Kopitar 3.8

 

[Kurrilino]

I'm more amazed that with 0 regular season games, people are already *****ing about Kopitar's performance for the upcoming season.

Well after his stellar season in 2015 and 3 preseason games with 0 points and -1 gainst bottom feeders i wonder why people getting concerned.

Same with Brown, Gaborik, Lucic.
Do you really think they wake up one morning and say to them self... hey what happened lately. I should really start to produce.
Too bad none of the coaches told me that.

I am more amazed that they are still pople who can't see that our complete way to play hockey is going nowhere doesn't matter who plays for us.

 

[Kurrilino]

And no matter how many times you try to say goals HE STILL LEAD THE TEAM IN SCORING. Just like he has for the past 7 years.

yep.. and Hall always leads the Oilers. I don't get the point.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Well after his stellar season in 2015 and 3 preseason games with 0 points and -1 gainst bottom feeders i wonder why people getting concerned.

Same with Brown, Gaborik, Lucic.
Do you really think they wake up one morning and say to them self... hey what happened lately. I should really start to produce.
Too bad none of the coaches told me that.

I am more amazed that they are still pople who can't see that our complete way to play hockey is going nowhere doesn't matter who plays for us.

Taking preseason games so seriously.