Knowing what we know - who do you draft in a re-draft? 18 yr old Crosby or 18 yr old McDavid?

[Caps8112]

If you want me to quantify it, I cannot. It's just an eye test concept of watching Crosby play with less heralded guys like Kunitz for a longer period of time and making do. Eye tests can be wrong. However, you saying there's no evidence Crosby elevates his teammates more than the other greats, and I think the opposite is true as well. There is no evidence he doesn't elevate his teammates less either.

Like it was mentioned, I believe the two are relatively on par. The difference between the two when I mention it is preference to keep elevating others vs the ability to elevate others. Again, eye test based on the path the guys he played with took to reach the NHL.

McDavid has been able to do the same with guys like Yakupov, Pulujarvi and Chiasson. I never meant one is significantly more capable of elevating than the other. I said that based on track records of the rosters so far, Crosby playing with less heralded guys has been a constant vs McDavid being on a line with the best the roster has to offer and certain guys are pulled off his line after a while.

This creates an assumption is that McDavid prefers playing without anchors on his line and doesn't prefer elevating "nobodies". IIRC, McDavid has played a lot with guys drafted in the top 5 (Hall, RNH, Pulujarvi, Yakupov, Draisaitl etc.), even if some of the others were nobodies and busts. But Crosby doesn't seem to care about that and is more willing to invest in longer term relationships with his wingers, even if they are unheralded (Guentzel, Kunitz, Dupuis, Sheary etc. mostly undrafted guys).

Again, it is merely an assumption. A deduction purely based on eye test and the stories of the players they've played with.

understand what you are saying but Kunitz is always a terrible example of this that gets used a lot. Kunitz was a good player in anaheim long before the pens. His 3rd and 5th best seasons were with anaheim and he was already a 20+ goal scorer regularly. Even his best year with Crosby 13-14 was only 8 pts more then his best year in anaheim playing with Selanne. The 3 guys you mentioned for Mcdavid literally could not play in the NHL.

 

[Voight]

I'm drafting crosby without a thought

 

[Haatley]

Crosby knows how to win games. I go with him. If Crosby entered his prime now, with all the rule changes that have been made to increase scoring, he would have at least close to Mcdavid's current production.

 

[Voight]

People forget how different the game was for much of Crosby's career. Just the constant blatant head shots and cheap shots that were so prevalent. McDavid certainly wouldn't be allowed to dance around every night unimpeded the way he is now. That's my biggest reason for taking Crosby, he is suited for any era.

No hes not. Considering he missed like 14 months from when eh ran into Steckels shoulder, Sid would've missed like 2 years if he was laid out by Stevens.

Crosby would've had a very rough go physically had he played in other eras.

 

[Voight]

Find someone that loves you as much as Midnight Judges loves Crosby threads.

Find someone who loves you as much as Nathaniel Skywalker loves Sidney Crosby.

 

[Felidae]

Imagine peak Crosby on the current Oilers vs mcdavid on the 08-17 penguins.

It's not close. Mcdavid

Crosby has led his club to three Cups. My team has no Cups. McDavid has no Cups. Definitely want Crosby.

Funny how the first 2 posts choose differently but with equally ridiculous reasoning.

 

[surixon]

Maroon, Hyman, RNH and I am sure there are others. Now there a few that didn't work. Some of the old core Eberle and Hall to mention a few.

The last 2 year Edmonton has had more than all the previous years but no one on MAF level in net . Pens also have had better D. I think Edmonton is still a couple of pieces away from winning it all. A goalie and a top pairing RD

I mean MAF wasn't anything special in Pittsburgh. He was a league average or slightly above league average starter. A good goalie but not a super star. They won two cups without him in net.

He actually hit a higher level as a star goalie after he left Pittsburgh.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

You're paying too much attention to stats. It has to do with the human aspect to the style of games they play, especially Crosby with his grinding play. If you're a bottom 6 player and watching Crosby play your game, holding onto the puck and making plays while getting abused in the corners and around the net, that's going to make you work that much harder. The common theme with the Pens has always been making use of nobodies and fitting them into roles where they contribute through effort

damn, must have lost his elite "leadership skillz" the past few seasons then

 

[Figgy44]

understand what you are saying but Kunitz is always a terrible example of this that gets used a lot. Kunitz was a good player in anaheim long before the pens. His 3rd and 5th best seasons were with anaheim and he was already a 20+ goal scorer regularly. Even his best year with Crosby 13-14 was only 8 pts more then his best year in anaheim playing with Selanne. The 3 guys you mentioned for Mcdavid literally could not play in the NHL.

Agreed. But then we also have Guentzel, Dupuis and Sheary as additional examples. Kunitz is just one of the more obvious ones. If not undrafted, it was Guentzel, third round 77th OA. I don't know if Hornqvist played with Crosby, but the last guy in the same draft as Sid on the roster. Lots of dudes that took the long path to the NHL. Crosby did also have guys like Malkin, Kessel and Staal on the team, but they didn't constantly put them on a line together. While draft order doesn't matter after a while, it still says something for a player to take a longer route to the NHL and be a mainstay IMO.

I'm not saying this to disparage CMD. I'm just saying that by observation, it seems like CMD ends up with the elite group of the team's roster and goes to war with the other team. CMD prefers to play with the big guns on the team. Crosby by comparison, spends a lot of times with the dudes with the longest paths to the NHL and seemingly takes a regular platoon onto the battle field. Crosby seems to prefer playing with guys with more hunger.

I mentioned that I think it was an org's or a coach's doing more than perhaps Crosby or CMD's doing and that in a different timeline, I think it could be reversed. But I've already seen what Crosby is like and if I choose, I'd choose him over CMD and likely anguish over the decision until both retire in this theoretical scenario.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Dupuis was a defensively responsible 20 goal player before going to the Pens. He had his best season (59 points) in 2012. Crosby played 22 out of 82 games that year.

This is not an example of a player being elevated by Crosby more than other elite players.

Same goes for Jake Guentzel - he had no problem being over a PPG away from Crosby in 2019-2020, but he's under a PPG playing with Sidney Crosby. In fact Guentzel had 29 points in 22 games while Sid was out in 19-20.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Guentzel is the exact opposite of a good case for Crosby elevating other players. His production is LOWER or approximately the same with Sid than away from Sid over the past 6 years, but here people are saying the exact opposite. (And no I'm not saying Sid makes him worse - it's probably happen stance. But again, the data doesn't remotely back up the lore).

Sheary is the best example if ever Sid elevated someone else. Sheary is also a decent player in his own right and has managed some success outside of Pittsburgh. In Washington he never got the opportunity to consistently play on Ovie's line but when he did, his scoring was pretty good.

 

[pi314]

I mean MAF wasn't anything special in Pittsburgh. He was a league average or slightly above league average starter. A good goalie but not a super star. They won two cups without him in net.

He actually hit a higher level as a star goalie after he left Pittsburgh.

Fleury single-handedly lost more playoff runs than he won.

 

[Regal]

Dupuis was a defensively responsible 20 goal player before going to the Pens. He had his best season (59 points) in 2012. Crosby played 22 out of 82 games that year.

This is not an example of a player being elevated by Crosby more than other elite players.

Same goes for Jake Guentzel - he had no problem being over a PPG away from Crosby in 2019-2020, but he's under a PPG playing with Sidney Crosby. In fact Guentzel had 29 points in 22 games while Sid was out in 19-20.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Guentzel is the exact opposite of a good case for Crosby elevating other players. His production is LOWER or approximately the same with Sid than away from Sid over the past 6 years, but here people are saying the exact opposite. (And no I'm not saying Sid makes him worse - it's probably happen stance. But again, the data doesn't remotely back up the lore).

Sheary is the best example if ever Sid elevated someone else. Sheary is also a decent player in his own right and has managed some success outside of Pittsburgh. In Washington he never got the opportunity to consistently play on Ovie's line but when he did, his scoring was pretty good.

You always make these kinds of posts but entirely use games played without any context (such as playing with Malkin in the games Crosby misses, a player being better in some years than others or player deployment), or actually looking deeper at the ice time numbers.

You say Dupuis was a 20 goal scorer before the Pens but he scored exactly 20 once, in a year where he received PP time and scored 6 goals and 13 points on the PP. He had 4 goals and 7 points on the PP in his entire time in Pittsburgh. His stat line at ES in his seasons before Pittsburgh average to 11 goals and 22 points. Plus ~8-10 points on the PP. His time in Pittsburgh he averaged 18 goals and 42 points per 82 at ES. His production nearly doubled at ES in slightly more minutes, he just stopped getting regular PP time.

In his first 11-12, Dupuis scored almost all of his points at ES. 55 of 59 points along with 3 SH and 1 PP. He played 138:28 with Sid at ES, scoring 15 points and played 1026:15 at ES, scoring 40 points. So he had a whopping 6.50 P/60 with Sid and 2.34 P/60 without him. In the 5 years from 08-09 to 12-13, Dupuis had a 2.87 P/60 with Sid and a 2.03 P/60 without him.

Now almost every non top line player is going to score more with elite talent over the long haul, so I’m not sure if Dupuis is indicative of anything Sid did more than what McDavid can do for someone like Maroon, but Sid undoubtedly made Dupuis better.

 

[gritdash60]

Crosby all day, you don't bet against Crosby. To me Sid is in the top5 all time, if not #1, he came and turned a franchise that was looking for help into a powerhouse. McDavid to me has the best skating and skills of all time, but he hasn't won, so easy pick for me.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You always make these kinds of posts but entirely use games played without any context (such as playing with Malkin in the games Crosby misses, a player being better in some years than others or player deployment), or actually looking deeper at the ice time numbers.

You say Dupuis was a 20 goal scorer before the Pens but he scored exactly 20 once, in a year where he received PP time and scored 6 goals and 13 points on the PP. He had 4 goals and 7 points on the PP in his entire time in Pittsburgh. His stat line at ES in his seasons before Pittsburgh average to 11 goals and 22 points. Plus ~8-10 points on the PP. His time in Pittsburgh he averaged 18 goals and 42 points per 82 at ES. His production nearly doubled at ES in slightly more minutes, he just stopped getting regular PP time.

In his first 11-12, Dupuis scored almost all of his points at ES. 55 of 59 points along with 3 SH and 1 PP. He played 138:28 with Sid at ES, scoring 15 points and played 1026:15 at ES, scoring 40 points. So he had a whopping 6.50 P/60 with Sid and 2.34 P/60 without him. In the 5 years from 08-09 to 12-13, Dupuis had a 2.87 P/60 with Sid and a 2.03 P/60 without him.

Now almost every non top line player is going to score more with elite talent over the long haul, so I’m not sure if Dupuis is indicative of anything Sid did more than what McDavid can do for someone like Maroon, but Sid undoubtedly made Dupuis better.

Yes but the difference between McDavid and Sid is the entirety of the point here. Crosby fans are claiming Sid does something extra for other players that McDavid does not. It is unfounded, and simultaneously taken as foundational fact and used as the key rationale for choosing Sid over McDavid despite McDavid's tangibly higher individual accomplishments.

Crosby is not unique in elevating other players. Every all-time great does that. Malkin elevates the same exact players Crosby has to a similar degree, but you rarely hear people making that claim for Malkin.

 

[Victorias]

Crosby all day, you don't bet against Crosby. To me Sid is in the top5 all time, if not #1, he came and turned a franchise that was looking for help into a powerhouse. McDavid to me has the best skating and skills of all time, but he hasn't won, so easy pick for me.

So, is Malkin top 5 as well? Or Patrick Kane? Hawks had a much longer Cup drought and he helped bring them 3.

 

[authentic]

No hes not. Considering he missed like 14 months from when eh ran into Steckels shoulder, Sid would've missed like 2 years if he was laid out by Stevens.

Crosby would've had a very rough go physically had he played in other eras.

Crosby took more physical punishment than any star player since Lemieux. Most of that time he missed was due to a misdiagnosed neck injury that they thought was a concussion, and the Steckel hit was largely a flukey play anyway.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby>mcdavid sorry oilers fans

 

[Maitz]

Crosby has 3 SC rings. Crosby

 

[LightningStorm]

Where does the idea that Crosby has a great two-way game come from? It's not true now, and it certainly wasn't true back when was the best player in the league (think 06-07).

Some of you people talk about him like he has the two-way game of Pavel Datsyuk.

Because the media wasn't ready to let go of him being the best player in the world when he was no longer competing for scoring titles. Also used to justify his Lifetime Achievement Conn Smythe win in 2016. He's not a bad defensive player, but also not someone I'd label a "two-way player."

 

[sting101]

Crosby easily.

Now lets celebrate all the Cups and Gold medals

 

[Voight]

Because the media wasn't ready to let go of him being the best player in the world when he was no longer competing for scoring titles. Also used to justify his Lifetime Achievement Conn Smythe win in 2016. He's not a bad defensive player, but also not someone I'd label a "two-way player."

Exactly... perfect example is 2019 when he finished 4th in Selke voting (somehow ending up with 3 more 1st place votes than Bergeron) ahead of Couts & Barkov. His media fanboys went all-in on the "two-way player" narrative.

Crosby all day, you don't bet against Crosby. To me Sid is in the top5 all time, if not #1, he came and turned a franchise that was looking for help into a powerhouse. McDavid to me has the best skating and skills of all time, but he hasn't won, so easy pick for me.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

yOu kNow WhAt, LeT's nOt tAke tHe 5-TiMe aRt RoSs wInNeR aNd 2-TiMe rUnNeR uP iN sEvEn HeALtHy sEaSoNs

 

[biturbo19]

Crosby pretty easily. McDavid is the more dominant offensive player but I always felt like Crosby did more to elevate his linemates and make everyone else better. His leadership and all around play are the difference maker for me.

Yeah. For as dominant as McDavid is today, it never really feels like he's directly elevating his linemates the way prime Crosby did.

Part of it is the two-way play. Part of it is just that McDavey has come along at the exact moment where his style of play is being opened up around the league. Crosby did what he did and was the clear cut best player in the world at a time where he had to be physically dominant to score the way he did. He was an absolute animal in fighting through checks, tugs, grabs, hooks, etc. He's not a big guy, but he was physically imposing nonetheless in that way he had the strength and skating to just own the puck and even the big physical defencemen with all the liberties they were allowed to take, still couldn't actually contain him.

McDavid is playing in arguably the softest era of the NHL we've seen. Speed kills and he obviously has that in spades. Defenders have limited tools in slowing guys down and containing them. He doesn't have to fight through tight checking and fringe penalties remotely the same way Crosby did.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ha! Now Crosby is "physically dominant" and "physically imposing" lol.

Holy cow people will say anything.

 

[Skolman]

Ha! Now Crosby is "physically dominant" and "physically imposing" lol.

Holy cow people will say anything.

Crosby fan boys are a unique breed.