Knowing what we know - who do you draft in a re-draft? 18 yr old Crosby or 18 yr old McDavid?

[Midnight Judges]

You're paying too much attention to stats. It has to do with the human aspect to the style of games they play, especially Crosby with his grinding play. If you're a bottom 6 player and watching Crosby play your game, holding onto the puck and making plays while getting abused in the corners and around the net, that's going to make you work that much harder. The common theme with the Pens has always been making use of nobodies and fitting them into roles where they contribute through effort

Ah so players are simply assumed to be working harder in Crosby's illustrious presence (even though there is zero statistical evidence for this).

So he's basically the world's greatest cheerleader. When Sid is on the bench, players on the ice are giving it 110%! But if McDavid is sitting there, meh not so much.

So yeah, fringe NHL players aren't primarily motivated by trying to stay in the NHL and make a career. They're probably not even trying their best unless Crosby is there.

 

[Despote]

Can't go wrong with either one. Sad that Crosby was robbed of some of his best years.

 

[Figgy44]

Perhaps you can be the first person in the history of HFBoards to show that Crosby actually elevates teammates more than McDavid or any other all time great.

This is one of the many things that gets said for Crosby that there isn't a scintilla of evidence for.



It directly disputes what you said. I guess I'll tie the points together a little more explicitly.

You claimed a prime Crosby would never miss the playoffs.

A prime Lemieux missed the playoffs. In fact it was more difficult to miss the playoffs back then.

Prime Lemieux >>> Prime Crosby.

Therefore a prime Crosby could certainly miss the playoffs.

(BTW this is true for all players because hockey is very much a team sport and it takes much more to win than any 1 player can provide).

If you want me to quantify it, I cannot. It's just an eye test concept of watching Crosby play with less heralded guys like Kunitz for a longer period of time and making do. Eye tests can be wrong. However, you saying there's no evidence Crosby elevates his teammates more than the other greats, and I think the opposite is true as well. There is no evidence he doesn't elevate his teammates less either.

Like it was mentioned, I believe the two are relatively on par. The difference between the two when I mention it is preference to keep elevating others vs the ability to elevate others. Again, eye test based on the path the guys he played with took to reach the NHL.

McDavid has been able to do the same with guys like Yakupov, Pulujarvi and Chiasson. I never meant one is significantly more capable of elevating than the other. I said that based on track records of the rosters so far, Crosby playing with less heralded guys has been a constant vs McDavid being on a line with the best the roster has to offer and certain guys are pulled off his line after a while.

This creates an assumption is that McDavid prefers playing without anchors on his line and doesn't prefer elevating "nobodies". IIRC, McDavid has played a lot with guys drafted in the top 5 (Hall, RNH, Pulujarvi, Yakupov, Draisaitl etc.), even if some of the others were nobodies and busts. But Crosby doesn't seem to care about that and is more willing to invest in longer term relationships with his wingers, even if they are unheralded (Guentzel, Kunitz, Dupuis, Sheary etc. mostly undrafted guys).

Again, it is merely an assumption. A deduction purely based on eye test and the stories of the players they've played with.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Find someone that loves you as much as Midnight Judges loves Crosby threads.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

SPICY THREAD.

 

[DearDiary]

Ah so players are simply assumed to be working harder in Crosby's illustrious presence (even though there is zero statistical evidence for this).

So he's basically the world's greatest cheerleader. When Sid is on the bench, players on the ice are giving it 110%! But if McDavid is sitting there, meh not so much.

So yeah, fringe NHL players aren't primarily motivated by trying to stay in the NHL and make a career. They're probably not even trying their best unless Crosby is there.

Players work harder for a lot of reasons, things like a defender making a big block or a goalie making a big save. It isn't just keeping their job

 

[The90]

Perhaps you can be the first person in the history of HFBoards to show that Crosby actually elevates teammates more than McDavid or any other all time great.

This is one of the many things that gets said for Crosby that there isn't a scintilla of evidence for.



It directly disputes what you said. I guess I'll tie the points together a little more explicitly.

You claimed a prime Crosby would never miss the playoffs.

A prime Lemieux missed the playoffs. In fact it was more difficult to miss the playoffs back then.

Prime Lemieux >>> Prime Crosby.

Therefore a prime Crosby could certainly miss the playoffs.

(BTW this is true for all players because hockey is very much a team sport and it takes much more to win than any 1 player can provide).

Not gonna lie, I didn’t read that. Crosby > mcdavid, though

 

[McSuper]

Indeed, Crosby took 60 point Kunitz and elevated him all the way up to 68 points.

That's a 13% improvement.

There is no way anyone can point to a player who had a 13% improvement playing with McDavid!

Maroon, Hyman, RNH and I am sure there are others. Now there a few that didn't work. Some of the old core Eberle and Hall to mention a few.

Or Crosby elevated his teams to better finishes.

The notion that McDavid hasn't had talent around him is getting ridiculous. He's played with more offensive talent the last number of years then Crosby has ever had up front on his team's.

The last 2 year Edmonton has had more than all the previous years but no one on MAF level in net . Pens also have had better D. I think Edmonton is still a couple of pieces away from winning it all. A goalie and a top pairing RD

 

[Victorias]

He was just voted the most complete player in the game by his peers this season.

Yeah, he’s won the last several years. However I found it odd that McDavid finished 4th in voting this year (after Crosby, Bergeron, and Barkov).

You have 2 Selke winners in between Crosby and McDavid. I’m not sure if Crosby is a complete player, but McDavid definitely isn’t, so who knows what to make of this vote…

 

[nowhereman]

I'm just here for the usual suspects trying everything in their power to s*** on Crosby. The mental gymnastics are Olympian in scale. This thread is more of a therapy couch than a debate.

 

[North Cole]

Crosby pretty easily. McDavid is the more dominant offensive player but I always felt like Crosby did more to elevate his linemates and make everyone else better. His leadership and all around play are the difference maker for me.

Interesting because you normally quote a lot of empirical stats in your posts, but in this instance it seems unmeasurable qualities push this into a not close territory.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I'm just here for the usual suspects trying everything in their power to s*** on Crosby. The mental gymnastics are Olympian in scale.

You think I shit on Crosby. I probably rank him as the 6th greatest player of all time.

I've never insulted or slandered Crosby. Crosby fans flat out slander Ovechkin, and every falsehood works for Crosby. Where do you rank Ovie? Some of you guys probably have him friggin 20th or some nonsense like that.

 

[blundluntman]

I have to be honest, I voted McDavid bc I think he's been better at his best and has been able to stay healthy, but aesthetically, I think I might've enjoyed watching Crosby at his peak a bit more. If I had to rely on the eye test, I'd really like to have Crosby play for my team. If health wasn't a factor, I really don't think you could go wrong with either player

 

[Connor McConnor]

Tough call, went with Connor but obviously that’s the minority decision

 

[Mrfenn92]

Both great f***ing players. But the answer is Crosby.

 

[The90]

You think I shit on Crosby. I probably rank him as the 6th greatest player of all time.

I've never insulted or slandered Crosby. Crosby fans flat out lie about Ovechkin. Where do you rank Ovie? Some of you guys probably have him friggin 70th or some crap like that.

Nobody has ovechkin 70th, just below crosby.

 

[Skolman]

Last time I checked, this wasn’t Oiler related. This is a discussion about a hockey player

If you’re more interested in a discussion about McDavid and the Oilers perhaps HFOil would better suit your needs, but this is a discussion about drafting Crosby or McDavid

Mcdavid plays for the Oilers, genius.

 

[ZDH]

Toews > Lemieux

Top 20 all time according to some totally unbiased hf folk.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

You think I shit on Crosby. I probably rank him as the 6th greatest player of all time.

I've never insulted or slandered Crosby. Crosby fans flat out slander Ovechkin, and every falsehood works for Crosby. Where do you rank Ovie? Some of you guys probably have him friggin 20th or some nonsense like that.

Dude, the vast majority of Pens fans have Crosby and Ovi right next to each other in an all-time ranking (5-8 range). This isn’t 2010 anymore. They’re both over the hill and both fanbases have chilled over the years. You don’t need to be on red alert 24/7 anymore.

P.S. the vast majority of Pens fans respect the shit out of Ovi, you’re delusional if you think all Crosby fans slander Ovi.

 

[Three On Zero]

Mcdavid plays for the Oilers, genius.

Astute observation! The relevancy of that to this topic is what?

 

[Skolman]

Astute observation! The relevancy of that to this topic is what?

"Last time I checked, this wasn't Oiler related"

Keep up.

 

[Three On Zero]

"Last time I checked, this wasn't Oiler related"

Keep up.

Again, what does Edmonton have to do with the thread? This is a discussion about McDavid or Crosby. Why try moving the goal posts for some weird narrative?

 

[wetcoast]

not sure what Jack Eichel has to do with anything but Vegas was a great team before he arrived, Jack just got on for the ride...dude didn't score a single goal in the Final nor in the last 8 games of the playoffs
insert any competent #1 center there and they still win

Eichel played a really complete game if he stays in Buffalo there would be less chatter about him.

being the #1 center on a sC team or for the purposes of this thread being the #1 center and captain of 3 SC teams means a lot to some people even if I think that the lack of a SC is way overblown being a winner just helps Crosby here.

ahh so Crosby's "excellent 2-way play and leadership" has resulted in 0 playoff wins and missing the playoffs....amazing

We are comparing 2 players here Crosby has played really well in the time period described his teams just didn't keep up.

The criticism about Matthews carries alot more wieght than Crosby playing well but not having the luck/counting stats and team success is more.

Call it a winners cushion or whatever but most people take it into account.

maybe, just maybe the team surrounding him...like McDavid dealt with for several years...just doesn't have it

Sure that's why it's more important to focus on individual accomplishments rather than team ones.

But that doesn't mean that Crosby and his 3 SC have zero weight here.

 

[wetcoast]

Again, there is no data that suggests Crosby does this any better than any other all time great. People just say things for Sid.

Alex Chiasson - a career healthy scratch - was a 22 goal player with McDavid and Draisaitl.

There are certainly arguments why one would prefer McDavid to Crosby but using Alex Chiasson is maybe reason # 458 or something....why even mention it?

 

[ThisIsMyAlibi]

The guy who wins and plays full length hockey. The Kid.