Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal

[OnTheRun]

But even Suzuki...he'd going to be making 7.8M next year, he's not likely to provide the immediate value on that deal in the short term, but the bet is he will through most of that deal.

He'll be making more than double what Dach is on a longer term. So by scale, I think the deal makes sense financially if you're going 4 years.

We'll agreed there hasn't been a marked improvement in his development, if there was, he wouldn't have been available.

But the Habs clearly think they can get him there.

I also don't think theyre the only ones who have that belief, I think anyone would have been way happier if Dachbwss acquired at this point last year, can so much change in 12 months?

Maybe...but I think there's alot to work with here, he's one of the players I'm most.looking forward to watching at camp.

The Habs already took the leap of faith by going out of their way to acquire him, not sure how it's in the team best interest to overcommit to a 4 years deal at the moment when it's Dach's turn to prove them right. 2 years deal now then extension in one and half year if he does well, that should be the natural order of things here.

 

[417]

The Habs already took the leap of faith by going out of their way to acquire him, not sure how it's in the team best interest to overcommit to a 4 years deal at the moment when it's Dach's turn to prove them right. 2 years deal now then extension in one and half year if he does well, that should be the natural order of things here.

I don't disagree with you, that's also the approach i would take.

I think a 2yr deal just makes sense for both sides.

But if the reported 4 year offer is what they agree on at 3.5M/yr, I don't have a problem with it, I quite like the player and I think it's a worthy gamble.

But I understand there's some moderate risk with that approach as well.

 

[ReHabs]

Salaries aren't tied to positions on the roster.

Of course they are. The more impactful a player is in terms of caphit per pts per TOI, the better for the team. Less impactful players (who are by definition more replaceable) play fewer minutes and should get smaller cap commitments.

 

[BLONG7]

Of course they are. The more impactful a player is in terms of caphit per pts per TOI, the better for the team. Less impactful players (who are by definition more replaceable) play fewer minutes and should get smaller cap commitments.

The new guys get this.................Bergevin, not so much...
Dach will be announced before camp, and we will be good to go.........still think 2 years would be better for all.

 

[salbutera]

The Habs already took the leap of faith by going out of their way to acquire him, not sure how it's in the team best interest to overcommit to a 4 years deal at the moment when it's Dach's turn to prove them right. 2 years deal now then extension in one and half year if he does well, that should be the natural order of things here.

But that’s the whole point… HuGo / MSL don’t believe acquiring Dach was a “leap of faith”, this wasn’t a Russian roulette move by hockey ops, they fully expect to have found a buy low high end asset which is why a 4-year deal is even being considered

The Habs off-season moves have Gorton leveraging Chris Boucher’s fingerprints all over them, I would love to know what his analysis predicted

 

[cphabs]

I still remember that hat-trick he had against Nashville with the OT winner. I was too young to be familiar with his time in NJ and Montreal pre-surgery but the way he came back was glorious.

And? We let him walk for nothing… unbelievable if you ask me.

 

[417]

Of course they are. The more impactful a player is in terms of caphit per pts per TOI, the better for the team. Less impactful players (who are by definition more replaceable) play fewer minutes and should get smaller cap commitments.

But this has nothing to do with what I wrote.

Salaries aren't tied to positions.

Brendan Gallagher is likely to be a 3rd line player this year making 6.25M.

Cole Caufield is likely to be a 1st line player making 880K.

 

[417]

The new guys get this.................Bergevin, not so much...
Dach will be announced before camp, and we will be good to go.........still think 2 years would be better for all.

But there's nothing to get there...salaries aren't tied to positions.

Nate McKinnon and Sean Monahan have basically the same cap hit.

Sean Monahan played on the 4th line...does that mean McKinnon is a 4th line player? Or that Monahan is a 1st line C.

 

[BLONG7]

But there's nothing to get there...salaries aren't tied to positions.

Nate McKinnon and Sean Monahan have basically the same cap hit.

Sean Monahan played on the 4th line...does that mean McKinnon is a 4th line player? Or that Monahan is a 1st line C.

You lost me..........
I was of the thought process, that the salaries should be tied to the best player down..............this is where I was going.

 

[417]

You lost me..........
I was of the thought process, that the salaries should be tied to the best player down..............this is where I was going.

This is about a previous post where that poster said that "a 4th line is "supposed" to make a 4-5M total".

To which I responded that salaries aren't tied to positions.

Yes of course, ideally, your best players should have the highest salaries and your lesser players, less.

But that's not quite how the system works.

 

[WeThreeKings]

This is about a previous post where that poster said that "a 4th line is "supposed" to make a 4-5M total".

To which I responded that salaries aren't tied to positions.

Yes of course, ideally, your best players should have the highest salaries and your lesser players, less.

But that's not quite how the system works.

Especially since a lot of GMs pay for past performance vs. indicators of future performance.

I've seen a lot of people hesitant on the Thompson contract but at least they are paying on the assumption he will replicate and grow over the contract vs a contract like Gallagher where you're paying someone for being underpaid on their previous contract, not paying them for what they are going to perform for you on that contract.

 

[417]

Especially since a lot of GMs pay for past performance vs. indicators of future performance.

Exactly...UFA deals tend to lean strongly towards paying for past performances.

Meanwhile, RFA deals tend to lean strongly towards paying for future performances.

Both have their own elements of risk/reward.

Unless you're signing a guy for 1 or 2 years, you're not likely paying "current" value for a player, which is why I keep saying that defining contracts as "bad" or "good" is really irrelevant and ignores the objectives and context of said contract.

I've seen a lot of people hesitant on the Thompson contract but at least they are paying on the assumption he will replicate and grow over the contract vs a contract like Gallagher where you're paying someone for being underpaid on their previous contract, not paying them for what they are going to perform for you on that contract.

Agreed...but I think that's a misunderstanding of how contracts work. Because Tage Thompson exploded last year which just so happened to coincide with his contract ending, the number it would cost to sign him for 7yrs was pretty much already set.

It's not like they could have signed him to a 7yr deal at 4M per year.

The knee jerk reaction from most after he signed that deal was almost universal, everyone shocked that a guy who more than doubled his career goal output in 1 season, is now going to make 7.1M.

But that's not just a random number the GM and agent came up with.

 

[BLONG7]

This is about a previous post where that poster said that "a 4th line is "supposed" to make a 4-5M total".

To which I responded that salaries aren't tied to positions.

Yes of course, ideally, your best players should have the highest salaries and your lesser players, less.

But that's not quite how the system works.

Right, ok..................I think it works though, if you have a GM who knows better what he is doing.
If a GM has several years of concurrent service, you would think he would be able to work that particular formula.........well at least the smarter ones. Shaping the roster so to speak if you have the vision.
Drouin and Gally are 11M between them, and based on performance, last year they are fourth line players, being paid top 6 money..................kinda of explains why we ended up in the basement..........
Just to use as an example, there are many in the case of MB.

 

[yianik]

But even Suzuki...he'd going to be making 7.8M next year, he's not likely to provide the immediate value on that deal in the short term, but the bet is he will through most of that deal.

He'll be making more than double what Dach is on a longer term. So by scale, I think the deal makes sense financially if you're going 4 years.

We'll agreed there hasn't been a marked improvement in his development, if there was, he wouldn't have been available.

But the Habs clearly think they can get him there.

I also don't think theyre the only ones who have that belief, I think anyone would have been way happier if Dachbwss acquired at this point last year, can so much change in 12 months?

Maybe...but I think there's alot to work with here, he's one of the players I'm most.looking forward to watching at camp.

It was 2012 that I was last this excited about camp.

But even Suzuki...he'd going to be making 7.8M next year, he's not likely to provide the immediate value on that deal in the short term, but the bet is he will through most of that deal.

He'll be making more than double what Dach is on a longer term. So by scale, I think the deal makes sense financially if you're going 4 years.

We'll agreed there hasn't been a marked improvement in his development, if there was, he wouldn't have been available.

But the Habs clearly think they can get him there.

I also don't think theyre the only ones who have that belief, I think anyone would have been way happier if Dachbwss acquired at this point last year, can so much change in 12 months?

Maybe...but I think there's alot to work with here, he's one of the players I'm most.looking forward to watching at camp.

This camp is exciting. Massive inflow of young prospects , a good few that are highly rated. Add in some young players like Dach and it certainly is something to which I am looking forward.

 

[417]

Right, ok..................I think it works though, if you have a GM who knows better what he is doing.
If a GM has several years of concurrent service, you would think he would be able to work that particular formula.........well at least the smarter ones. Shaping the roster so to speak if you have the vision.
Drouin and Gally are 11M between them, and based on performance, last year they are fourth line players, being paid top 6 money..................kinda of explains why we ended up in the basement..........
Just to use as an example, there are many in the case of MB.

Yes and no...sometimes there's no predicting guys falling off a cliff.

Did anyone think Sean Monahan would be given away along with a 1st round pick 3yrs ago when he was a PPG player? Certainly not the Flames or their fans.

His salary looked great then, 3 years later...no so much.

Was that deal handed out without vision? I don't think so.

I think why the Habs ended up in the basement goes alot deeper than just guys being in the 4th line and paid as top 6 players.

Brendan Gallagher made the same salary last year as he did when the Habs made the Cup finals (yes I know...Covid year, etc, etc).

 

[CHfan1]

Brendan Gallagher made the same salary last year as he did when the Habs made the Cup finals (yes I know...Covid year, etc, etc).

Gallagher’s cap hit was $3.75 million when they went to the finals, last season was the 1st year his new contract kicked in.

 

[417]

Gallagher’s cap hit was $3.75 million when they went to the finals, last season was the 1st year his new contract kicked in.

I stand corrected...you're right.

Thanks

But I think the broader point still stands.

Shit happens that changes the outlook on a contract from bad to good or vice versa and back again.

Maybe the Gallagher example was bad because anyone not emotionally attached to the player could have seen this coming.

 

[Peteux]

I may be late to bring that, but Basu wrote an article on Dach. In my opinion, Basu isn't the best to evaluate a player... I mean, it's Basu. I'm not very good to evaluate talent, I was very high on KK and Eller...

Still, I'm not that thrilled about what is in his article. He brings up that Dach is shying away from contact when the best play is a « small contact ». Dach isn't the physical type, but there's really bad clips in this article. Add to that his injury, his low production and low faceoff win percentage... I'm not that high on that trade. I hope he proves me wrong.

​

 

[BLONG7]

Yes and no...sometimes there's no predicting guys falling off a cliff.

Did anyone think Sean Monahan would be given away along with a 1st round pick 3yrs ago when he was a PPG player? Certainly not the Flames or their fans.

His salary looked great then, 3 years later...no so much.

Was that deal handed out without vision? I don't think so.

I think why the Habs ended up in the basement goes alot deeper than just guys being in the 4th line and paid as top 6 players.

Brendan Gallagher made the same salary last year as he did when the Habs made the Cup finals (yes I know...Covid year, etc, etc).

Agents are the cause of some of this havoc................$$$$$ and Term are both the root of this evil.

Bugs me to no end, when I guy gets both, and then mails it in....................there can be other issues, mainly injuries, but GM's are to blame for being bullied by agents.

Hughes will hopefully know better.

 

[sandviper]

I wish we knew what HuGo knows. Only cautiously optimistic until we start seeing what he can do.

Well, according to my sources the word from HuGo is either Dach is 100% healthy or he isn’t. Either way, his new deal looks to be 4 x $3.5, or not.

More news at 11.

 

[CHfan1]

Delete

 

[Runner77]

Well, according to my sources the word from HuGo is either Dach is 100% healthy or he isn’t. Either way, his new deal looks to be 4 x $3.5, or not.

More news at 11.

You’ve done good. You’ve made Darren Dreger proud.

 

[ZUKI]

The 4 years contact offer isn't more about his free agent statue ? after that they can keep him 8 seasons.
Just to ask

 

[OnTheRun]

The 4 years contact offer isn't more about his free agent statue ? after that they can keep him 8 seasons.
Just to ask

Well technically every contract are about FA status, since R/UFA status always need to be managed. In Dach case he will be UFA in 5 years.

 

[Sorinth]

It obviously makes sense for MTL to talk about a 4 year deal to see where the number is because it's obviously a chance to get a really efficient contract. The real question is how much do we believe that Dach will become a good player.

At the rumoured 3.5m all you really need from Dach is for him to be a good 3rd line center which is certainly possible so I'd probably do that deal even though I'm not Dach's biggest fan. Usually when a team trades for an RFA they end up giving the player the contract the player wants (Drouin, Anderson, Shaw as some recent examples). So I'd be curious if this rumoured deal is what Dach wants or whether he wants more of a show me deal so he can sign long term at a better salary.