Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal part 2

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Scriptor

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I was liking his future at RW because he's so good along the wall but as a C he's using his body more, and doing a great job extending plays and showing that he can lead his own line in the top6.
Now, imagine if he actually had real skill on his wings?

Pretty convinced Caufield was gonna get 40 this season. Im quite convinced he can reach 50 in his career. He was scoring at a good rate despite playing hurt the whole time.

Dach has a good shot. If he keeps refining it and uses it more he will be such a duel threat with his passing abilities. The injury to Caufield may give him that chance to shoot more, particularly on the PP,
He first got injured right before Christmas in Dallas and it was no biggie. The second game, after Christmas was a bigger problem.

Playing hurt the whole time? Are we talking about the same player?
 

BaseballCoach

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Pretty convinced Caufield was gonna get 40 this season. Im quite convinced he can reach 50 in his career. He was scoring at a good rate despite playing hurt the whole time.

Dach has a good shot. If he keeps refining it and uses it more he will be such a duel threat with his passing abilities. The injury to Caufield may give him that chance to shoot more, particularly on the PP,

Now, imagine if he actually had real skill on his wings?
Dach reminded a poster (I forget whom) of Bobby Smith, albeit a RH version.

Imagine the havoc that could be created if Sean Farrell can play like Mats Naslund.
 
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DAChampion

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There is NO QUESTION that Brady Tkachuk and Tim Stutzle would have taken longer to reach star status, had they done a "costless" stint of a year or two or three in Junior/College/Europe/AHL, continuing to get away with moves/tricks that may not work in the NHL.

An unjustified non-sequitur.

Tkachuk was considered NHL ready on draft day, and there is no reason to think that scoring 80 points in the AHL would have slowed him down.

Btw using RANDOM CAPITALIZATION to support a weak argument has the opposite effect on any thinking reader.
 
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BaseballCoach

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An unjustified non-sequitur.

Tkachuk was considered NHL ready on draft day, and there is no reason to think that scoring 80 points in the AHL would have slowed him down.
Most hockey men considered Brady ready, but the ones who think "you can never do wrong sending a guy down" would say it doesn't matter. Always send everyone down because if you are wrong, nothing bad happens, and if you are right you avoided big disappointment.

Of course, the 'never wrong to demote" meme came out of Detroit during a 25 year period where they never drafted higher than 15OA. Easy to say that when you don't have the kind of draft picks where going down slows their development.

So could you say for yourself whether you think every single prospect should be held out of the NHL at 18 because there literally is nothing to lose and everything to gain?

And by the way, focusing on someone's use of capital letters instead of addressing their argument is not the best debate approach.

Do you think the Sens made a mistake with Brady and Stutzle, and the Canes with Svechnikov and the Devils with Hughes and Hischier? If you think that any of them were rightly kept in thge NHL, then I expect you to take issue with those who say it never costs anything to send a guy down.

Unless of course you just like their conclusion (Slaf go down) and don't care what argument is used.
 
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Mrb1p

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Most hockey men considered Brady ready, but the ones who think "you can never do wrong sending a guy down" would say it doesn't matter. Always send everyone down because if you are wrong, nothing bad happens, and if you are right you avoided big disappointment.

Of course, the 'never wrong to demote" meme came out of Detroit during a 25 year period where they never drafted higher than 15OA. Easy to say that when you don't have the kind of draft picks where going down slows their development.
Tkachuk was ready offensively, but maybe he wouldve learned to produce while being defensively responsible if he stayed in the NCAA anothwr year, instead of staying the exact same player.
 

BaseballCoach

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Tkachuk was ready offensively, but maybe he wouldve learned to produce while being defensively responsible if he stayed in the NCAA anothwr year, instead of staying the exact same player.
If the Sens are less capable of teaching defence than an NCAA coach, there is a problem. And why would the organization make someone their captain if he is not a responsible player?

Besides the coaching difference, why would the NCAA competition level spur better defensive play than NHL opponents?
 

Mrb1p

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If the Sens are less capable of teaching defence than an NCAA coach, there is a problem. And why would the organization make someone their captain if he is not a responsible player?

Besides the coaching difference, why would the NCAA competition level spur better defensive play than NHL opponents?
What the f*** kinda logic is that? Alex Ovechkin has been captain for more than a decade now. Mcdavid too.

I think Tkachuk was ready to make the jump personally, but lets say he stayed there one more year... what bad could've come of it?
 

DAChampion

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What the f*** kinda logic is that? Alex Ovechkin has been captain for more than a decade now. Mcdavid too.

I think Tkachuk was ready to make the jump personally, but lets say he stayed there one more year... what bad could've come of it?
I think that if a player is too good for their level, there is a risk of developing lazy habits. But I doubt that would have been the case for Tkachuk in the NCAA.
 

Mrb1p

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I think that if a player is too good for their level, there is a risk of developing lazy habits. But I doubt that would have been the case for Tkachuk in the NCAA.
Well, since that Brady scored 8 goals in his NCAA season, that probably wouldn't apply to him. But I wonder if he did develop that god awful defensive zone coverage and laziness in the NCAA, or if he played there would it have become worse or better.

On one side, did he learn to cheat to produce more in the NCAA ? Or did he start to cheat because the clip at which he was producing was good enough to land his team wins ? If he stayed one more year, could he have consolidated his offensive game to a higher level where he wouldn't need to cheat so much and be able to expand enough energy defending ? I think thats plausible, much more so than that year ruining him in some capacity.

Of course this all comes down to player development and/or (In the case of Bergevin lead teams..) the player. If I drafted Shane Wright, I would've sent him down with the goal to diversify his offensive game and impose his will on games, explain to him that playing a "pro" game and being content with moving the puck up ice and maybe notching a goal every few game is fine for a 4th liner, but not for a guy with his talent. Does he learn more from that than what happened this year? If you have someone working, like Adam Nicholas, Like Francis Bouillon, like Vincent Lecavalier, like whoever does the OHL job that Bouillon does, why can't he just sit down with the guy and say something like: "This will not work in the NHL, do not do it, its a waste of time and not why we sent you down, do this if you want to get better."

Its pretty funny how people that claim that rushing player doesn't exist and being in the NHL quick is the best way and or that development doesn't exist, also put their full trust in the management and say "They know better" but they can't contextualize that the teams hand goes a lot further than the 10/30 or Bell center.
 
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BaseballCoach

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Given the balance of evidence, as the team that drafted him, I have no doubt that Chicago would not re-rush him to the NHL if they could re-do things. Given what they knew by the end of Year3, they would have let him do another lap in the WHL in Year1 as the Habs/Knights had Suzuki.

Basically, they made a decision in Year1 that should be reserved for only the most important and ready young players.

I don’t think his development as a hockey player (ie a player who helps your team win games) was helped by playing in the NHL as early and often as he did.
On the contrary, if I were Hawks management, what I would have learned is that reducing his minutes and role in years two and three hurt Kirby's progress, and fooled us as to his actual ability. He was clearly able to give us more and we screwed up by not giving hium enough credit.
 

Scriptor

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I think that if a player is too good for their level, there is a risk of developing lazy habits. But I doubt that would have been the case for Tkachuk in the NCAA.
Or, as in Suzuki's case, you have one helluva year in your last season at a lower level, gain the confidence to know you can be a money player and a game changer and bring that to the highest level with you as a transformed player?

There is no right answer.
 

Scriptor

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He will, and for big money as he will have become our #1C by then.
That would be awesome if he could become a PPG+ C that is physically dominant with zone entries. He does well for the moment in that aspect of his game, but is still entering the O-zone on the periphery and not using his physical advantages enough to mix it up and gain the O-Zone through middle ice.

It's still early and that can come more and more with time.

How would a C-line like this, with the listed production. look?

Dach (85 points)
Suzuki (75 points)
Beck (60 points)
Evans ( 30 points)

I just don't know where we would fit in our franchise C drafted in 2023 and PLD when we acquire him? The wings, somewhere?

I think Suzuki could play wing, but he's too smart a player at C, IMO and much more involved in the play when playing that position.

Dubois - Dach (85 points) - Bedard/Fantilli/Carlsson/Dvorsky
Caufield - Suzuki (75 points) - Slafkovsky
Farrell - Beck (60 points) - Roy
Heineman - Evans ( 30 points) - Ylonen
 

SlafySZN

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That would be awesome if he could become a PPG+ C that is physically dominant with zone entries. He does well for the moment in that aspect of his game, but is still entering the O-zone on the periphery and not using his physical advantages enough to mix it up and gain the O-Zone through middle ice.

It's still early and that can come more and more with time.

How would a C-line like this, with the listed production. look?

Dach (85 points)
Suzuki (75 points)
Beck (60 points)
Evans ( 30 points)

I just don't know where we would fit in our franchise C drafted in 2023 and PLD when we acquire him? The wings, somewhere?

I think Suzuki could play wing, but he's too smart a player at C, IMO and much more involved in the play when playing that position.

Dubois - Dach (85 points) - Bedard/Fantilli/Carlsson/Dvorsky
Caufield - Suzuki (75 points) - Slafkovsky
Farrell - Beck (60 points) - Roy
Heineman - Evans ( 30 points) - Ylonen
Dach is a hab.

Dubois is not. Let’s wait before creating lineups and wondering where Dach would play because of someone who’s not on the team.

If the player drafted is a center/winger we absolutely don’t even need Dubois in he first place.
 
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JianYang

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That would be awesome if he could become a PPG+ C that is physically dominant with zone entries. He does well for the moment in that aspect of his game, but is still entering the O-zone on the periphery and not using his physical advantages enough to mix it up and gain the O-Zone through middle ice.

It's still early and that can come more and more with time.

How would a C-line like this, with the listed production. look?

Dach (85 points)
Suzuki (75 points)
Beck (60 points)
Evans ( 30 points)

I just don't know where we would fit in our franchise C drafted in 2023 and PLD when we acquire him? The wings, somewhere?

I think Suzuki could play wing, but he's too smart a player at C, IMO and much more involved in the play when playing that position.

Dubois - Dach (85 points) - Bedard/Fantilli/Carlsson/Dvorsky
Caufield - Suzuki (75 points) - Slafkovsky
Farrell - Beck (60 points) - Roy
Heineman - Evans ( 30 points) - Ylonen


Thats excellent but i don't expect dach to be an 85 point player or anything close to it. Suzuki might be a closer estimation at 75 points but even that looks overstated to me. Suzuki is a big game player but he has shown a tendency to disappear for long stretches thus far in his career.
 

SlafySZN

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Thats excellent but i don't expect dach to be an 85 point player or anything close to it. Suzuki might be a closer estimation at 75 points but even that looks overstated to me. Suzuki is a big game player but he has shown a tendency to disappear for long stretches thus far in his career.
I think Dach can do it, with good wingers, maybe not every year.

If Suzuki becomes a 2C, then 75 points would be tough. He plays big minutes and PP1 and seems like he'll hit only around 60 points this season.
 

JianYang

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Sep 29, 2017
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I think Dach can do it, with good wingers, maybe not every year.

If Suzuki becomes a 2C, then 75 points would be tough. He plays big minutes and PP1 and seems like he'll hit only around 60 points this season.

We will agree to disagree on dach, but that's not really knocking him. He can still be a pivotal peice to a cup puzzle without hitting 85 points.
 

The Great Weal

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He and Kirby are great buddy, too. Blue Jackets gave him PP time, but he's so fragile, too many injuries.
I doubt he would cost more than Dach. Not really sure where he fits on the Jackets in the future.

Werenski-Jiricek
Mateychuk-Boqvist/Cuelemans

Of course he could just play on the 2nd pairing, but he probably won't see much PP time if any.
 

LesHabitants

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Oct 20, 2022
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As I mentioned earlier, this guy's skillset will stand out even more when time and space is hotly contested.... Which is what we see in the playoffs, so I agree with you.
Hopefully he's still playing for the Habs whenever they make the playoffs again.
 

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