Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal part 2

[Toene]

Perhaps the issue is, someone who “never really dominated juniors” shouldn’t be a “projected star”…

I disagree. Many players in Liiga or SHL don't dominate (granted they play against adults) pre-draft but are still drafted high based on their tools and some become stars.

 

[JianYang]

Dach suffers from consistency issues like most young players, and he's the first guy to be booted to lesser linemates when the top line needs a shuffle.

When you consider all that, he's having a good year. The lack of depth hurts dach in the top 6 more than anyone else, and I'll bet consistency will get better with age and more talent around him.

Ideally, I still see him as a center long term. He just has that type of makeup to him.

 

[Adam Michaels]

That gif where he plows through clutterbuck should be in this thread imo
That was sexy af

Clutterbuck got clotterdached.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Just to be clear : do you even think it's possible that rushing a player could affect his development? Like, do you believe Lane Hutson could have benefited from playing on the Habs this year?
I usually really respect your contributions and enjoy your posts, but your stance regarding that point is unusually radical. Dach had all the tools in his draft year but never really dominated in juniors. He was selected for his attributes and the potential that they implied. It's kinda working for him now, but he's still not the projected star I saw in him, and he obviously had confidence issues from being inserted in Chicago too soon. It took the shock of a trade and the GM of his new team do a seduction operation ("we're gonna play some offence" quote on draft day and probably more conversations behind the scenes) to bolster his confidence to reach the results we are saying.

There's not any indication that rushing him paid dividends, unless it's part of the process you praise to deliberately gamble on a drastic change of scenery for this approach to work.

Lane Hutson is not ready for the NHL. There is nothing to discuss.

Kirby Dach was good enough for the NHL when he was drafted. Dylan Cozens was not.

It's as simple as that.

If you are good enough to make the team (and not on taxi squad), you play in the NHL and develop at whatever speed you and the club working together can achieve.

If confidence, stamina, work habits or any other issue cause your performance to dip below 20-man NHL level, you get sent down. But the GM doesn't decide in advance, "hey this guy MIGHT have a confidence issue later (not now, he is fine now), so let's cut him". LOL, that just doesn't happen. It would slow the development of a guy who turns out is not having issues.

Rantanen was tried in the NHL, sucked, got sent down.

Stutzle and Brady Tkachuk were tried in the NHL and played at the level. They stayed. And improved. A lot.

Andrei Svechnikov is reportedly playing at a lower level this year than last. If it continues and gets worse, will fans start to say it's because he was rushed? I ask because quite a few here state that Galchenyuk ultimately failed due to being rushed. It's just not true.

My stance, by the way, is hardly radical. It reflects what almost every GM of a real team does.

 

[Toene]

Lane Hutson is not ready for the NHL. There is nothing to discuss.

Kirby Dach was good enough for the NHL when he was drafted. Dylan Cozens was not.

It's as simple as that.

If you are good enough to make the team (and not on taxi squad), you play in the NHL and develop at whatever speed you and the club working together can achieve.

If confidence, stamina, work habits or any other issue cause your performance to dip below 20-man NHL level, you get sent down. But the GM doesn't decide in advance, "hey this guy MIGHT have a confidence issue later (not now, he is fine now), so let's cut him". LOL, that just doesn't happen. It would slow the development of a guy who turns out is not having issues.

Rantanen was tried in the NHL, sucked, got sent down.

Stutzle and Brady Tkachuk were tried in the NHL and played at the level. They stayed. And improved. A lot.

Andrei Svechnikov is reportedly playing at a lower level this year than last. If it continues and gets worse, will fans start to say it's because he was rushed? I ask because quite a few here state that Galchenyuk ultimately failed due to being rushed. It's just not true.

My stance, by the way, is hardly radical. It reflects what almost every GM of a real team does.

We differ on what "good enough" means. Seems that, for you, "good enough" is keeping your head above water in the NHL. For me, it's good enough relative to their potential role in the line-up. Dach's development path was going nowhere in Chicago. Everyone could see it. The trade and MSL's usage are what changed the course.

Being better than the worst player of a NHL squad means nothing for high-potential prospects. Ok, Slaf is better than Dadonov, but Dadonov is one of the worst players on one of the worst teams in the league. Big deal. Dude wasn't even playing first-line in a farmer's league and he's supposed to learn to be the alpha and dominate by playing ten minutes a night on a losing team? There's no swag in his game, he seems lost in a lot of matches.

It's like throwing a very bright 8th grader in Harvard, watch him struggle and fail most classes, and then claim he's eventually gonna finish top of his class after a few years of struggling. It's nonsense. The step from Liiga was too big and he needs to go to prep school and then try again.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

Lane Hutson is not ready for the NHL. There is nothing to discuss.

Kirby Dach was good enough for the NHL when he was drafted. Dylan Cozens was not.

It's as simple as that.

If you are good enough to make the team (and not on taxi squad), you play in the NHL and develop at whatever speed you and the club working together can achieve.

If confidence, stamina, work habits or any other issue cause your performance to dip below 20-man NHL level, you get sent down. But the GM doesn't decide in advance, "hey this guy MIGHT have a confidence issue later (not now, he is fine now), so let's cut him". LOL, that just doesn't happen. It would slow the development of a guy who turns out is not having issues.

Rantanen was tried in the NHL, sucked, got sent down.

Stutzle and Brady Tkachuk were tried in the NHL and played at the level. They stayed. And improved. A lot.

Andrei Svechnikov is reportedly playing at a lower level this year than last. If it continues and gets worse, will fans start to say it's because he was rushed? I ask because quite a few here state that Galchenyuk ultimately failed due to being rushed. It's just not true.

My stance, by the way, is hardly radical. It reflects what almost every GM of a real team does.

What shows that a player is ready for the nhl?
Why was Dach good enough for the nhl, but not Cozens?
Why was Slafkovsky good enough, but not Beck? Beck had a strong camp + preseason after all.

Slafkovsky has 0 pts in his last 15 games. Why was he not sent down? And was his offensive struggle in the nhl this season not predictable considering his lack of production in the SM-liiga last year?

 

[cphabs]

View attachment 636192

It didn’t even phase him… lmao

 

[salbutera]

We differ on what "good enough" means. Seems that, for you, "good enough" is keeping your head above water in the NHL. For me, it's good enough relative to their potential role in the line-up. Dach's development path was going nowhere in Chicago. Everyone could see it. The trade and MSL's usage are what changed the course.

Being better than the worst player of a NHL squad means nothing for high-potential prospects. Ok, Slaf is better than Dadonov, but Dadonov is one of the worst players on one of the worst teams in the league. Big deal. Dude wasn't even playing first-line in a farmer's league and he's supposed to learn to be the alpha and dominate by playing ten minutes a night on a losing team? There's no swag in his game, he seems lost in a lot of matches.

It's like throwing a very bright 8th grader in Harvard, watch him struggle and fail most classes, and then claim he's eventually gonna finish top of his class after a few years of struggling. It's nonsense. The step from Liiga was too big and he needs to go to prep school and then try again.

“Good enough” varies from team to team needs & where they are (contending vs rebuilding) at a given point in time but if physical stature and skating are not up to NHL sniff, the 18-yr old prospect will never make it.

Can’t think of a frail 18-year old who did…

Dach was almost 200-lbs on a 6’4” frame, Cozens was not as meaty at 18, and his non puck awareness isn’t as refined as Dach’s

Hawks under Stanley as GM were also looking to make playoffs & were up against the cap needing an ELC to play a top-6 role…. Dach was their only realistic option

 

[BaseballCoach]

“Good enough” varies from team to team needs & where they are (contending vs rebuilding) at a given point in time but if physical stature and skating are not up to NHL sniff, the 18-yr old prospect will never make it.

Can’t think of a frail 18-year old who did…

Dach was almost 200-lbs on a 6’4” frame, Cozens was not as meaty at 18, and his non puck awareness isn’t as refined as Dach’s

Hawks under Stanley as GM were also looking to make playoffs & were up against the cap needing an ELC to play a top-6 role…. Dach was their only realistic option

Dach was never even a 4th liner in Cicago. He played 2nd or 3rd line his time there. The injury he got when sent to the WJC did not help his development, but still he was good enough for the league, and learned enough so that when he got here and got a new environment, he was able to perform.

 

[BaseballCoach]

What shows that a player is ready for the nhl?
Why was Dach good enough for the nhl, but not Cozens?
Why was Slafkovsky good enough, but not Beck? Beck had a strong camp + preseason after all.

Slafkovsky has 0 pts in his last 15 games. Why was he not sent down? And was his offensive struggle in the nhl this season not predictable considering his lack of production in the SM-liiga last year?

Slaf's last 4 games were solid. The pointlessness was not going to continue if he kept playing like that. Did you hear Lecavalier takllng about Slafkovky the other day?

Cozens was smaller and less good defensively than Dach.

Beck this fall still needed to learn to be a better playmaker. As a center that is quite important.

Now he has improved his playmaking this year. So if Beck is good enough to play 12 minutes next year, I am pushing for him to make the team at 19.

 

[Mrb1p]

Oh jeezus. If Dach had played two more years in the WHL, would he be at a 50 point pace in his sophomore year? Would he be able to make the plays against NHLers that he makes now, after two more easy years?

Give me a break.

Yes and he probably wouldnt have broken his wrist, and he probably wouldve got a much better shot than now. Its not hard to imagine at all. He probably wouldnt suffer from his outside play syndrome.

Dach was however not on the fourth line and was allowed a top 6 spot even though he sucked, something I can appreciate.

I disagree. Many players in Liiga or SHL don't dominate (granted they play against adults) pre-draft but are still drafted high based on their tools and some become stars.

Like who?

 

[BaseballCoach]

We differ on what "good enough" means. Seems that, for you, "good enough" is keeping your head above water in the NHL. For me, it's good enough relative to their potential role in the line-up. Dach's development path was going nowhere in Chicago. Everyone could see it. The trade and MSL's usage are what changed the course.

Being better than the worst player of a NHL squad means nothing for high-potential prospects.

Re the bolded, I don't agree and neither do real world GMs and coaches.

Plekanec made the NHL when he was good enough to play 4th line, even though his potential role was 70-point second line C.

Suzuki made the NHL and started off playing 10 minutes on Nate Thompson's wing even though his potential role was top-6 center.

Steve Shutt made the NHL on a strong team when he was good enough to score just 8 goals on the 4th line, even though as a 4OA, his potential was first line winger.

Tim Stutzle started off bottom-6 even though his potential was first line winger as well.

Brady Tkachuk did not start out on the first line or as the captain.

Vinny Lecavalier started out on the third line. He talks about that often, and feels that he benefitted big time.

I have to stop because in fact 99% of young players start out in the NHL in the bottom 6, whether they arrived directly or after an AHL stint - no difference.

Yes and he probably wouldnt have broken his wrist, and he probably wouldve got a much better shot than now. Its not hard to imagine at all. He probably wouldnt suffer from his outside play syndrome.

Dach was however not on the fourth line and was allowed a top 6 spot even though he sucked, something I can appreciate.


Like who?

Dach broke his wrist at WJC camp, lol.

“Good enough” varies from team to team needs & where they are (contending vs rebuilding) at a given point in time but if physical stature and skating are not up to NHL sniff, the 18-yr old prospect will never make it.

Can’t think of a frail 18-year old who did…

Petr Svoboda says hi.

 

[Toene]

I have to stop because in fact 99% of young players start out in the NHL in the bottom 6, whether they arrived directly or after an AHL stint - no difference.

Of course, when they are mature enough and ready. And Dach and Slafkovsky clearly weren't. Slaf is lost on the ice and Dach was lost his first years. Suzuki and most the other players you listed were ready and it showed before and after.

 

[salbutera]

Re the bolded, I don't agree and neither do real world GMs and coaches.

Plekanec made the NHL when he was good enough to play 4th line, even though his potential role was 70-point second line C.

Suzuki made the NHL and started off playing 10 minutes on Nate Thompson's wing even though his potential role was top-6 center.

Steve Shutt made the NHL on a strong team when he was good enough to score just 8 goals on the 4th line, even though as a 4OA, his potential was first line winger.

Tim Stutzle started off bottom-6 even though his potential was first line winger as well.

Brady Tkachuk did not start out on the first line or as the captain.

Vinny Lecavalier started out on the third line. He talks about that often, and feels that he benefitted big time.

I have to stop because in fact 99% of young players start out in the NHL in the bottom 6, whether they arrived directly or after an AHL stint - no difference.


Dach broke his wrist at WJC camp, lol.


Petr Svoboda says hi.

Yup - good one, thx.

Different time & circumstances - language barrier, having defected from home country, and oh yeah the Berlin Wall…

 

[DAChampion]

Plekanec made the NHL when he was good enough to play 4th line, even though his potential role was 70-point second line

OT but did *anybody* know that about Plekanec?

 

[HabbyGuy]

Kirby has been playing great for awhile, he's had a really good season and looks like he's starting to realize his potential. His confidence is certainly growing and it shows.

 

[Toene]

Like who?

Most of them. Tons of players get drafted in the first rounds, and even all across the draft, for their attributes and before dominating their league. For instance lots of rookie CHL players who aren't ppg or best on their team but eventually project to be. Dach was excellent in the WHL but he was (close) third on his team his D-season and didnt really set the league on fire. But I believe he would've, if he stayed at least a year longer.

He never got the opportunity to be dominant because he was rushed. Sometimes it works, but I don't think it's often the best path.

 

[Mrb1p]

Most of them. Tons of players get drafted in the first rounds, and even all across the draft, for their attributes and before dominating their league. For instance lots of rookie CHL players who aren't ppg or best on their team but eventually project to be. Dach was excellent in the WHL but he was (close) third on his team his D-season and didnt really set the league on fire. But I believe he would've, if he stayed at least a year longer.

He never got the opportunity to be dominant because he was rushed. Sometimes it works, but I don't think it's often the best path.

Ppg is actually pretty close to dominating. Especially around 16-20 where scoring was downish in the CHL.

 

[NobleSix]

He's producing as a center away from Caufield and Suzuki. That is a really good sign.

 

[WinterLion]

He's producing as a center away from Caufield and Suzuki. That is a really good sign.

And looking good at both ends... and finally driving the net a bit more!

 

[MtlSars]

He's producing as a center away from Caufield and Suzuki. That is a really good sign.

Between Hoffman and Anderson no less...

Leading the blind and the lazy!

 

[le_sean]

I still can’t fathom that a rebuilding team traded a 21 year old 3rd overall pick yet kept a 34 year old.

 

[Simarino]

He's producing as a center away from Caufield and Suzuki. That is a really good sign.

He'S producing and playing some great hockey centering Anderson and Hoffman, that says alot!! Imagine when he's going to have Mitchkov and Cristall for wingers!!

 

[Skip Bayless]

Kirby has been playing great for awhile, he's had a really good season and looks like he's starting to realize his potential. His confidence is certainly growing and it shows.

We've needed that type of player for so long. I hope we can draft another C like him this year.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I still can’t fathom that a rebuilding team traded a 21 year old 3rd overall pick yet kept a 34 year old.

You know how some fans complain about how Montreal hasn't done enough to tank by trading veterans?

Trading guys like Dach (or Caufield or Suzuki) is actually how you do it. For maybe a slightly better than 1-4 chance.