Kingston Frontenacs 2023-24 Off-Season Thread (Part 4)

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dirty12

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Yes. Had 69 year before as an 18 year old. whole Owen sound team had a rough year his 19 year old season- Barlow didn’t even produce well.

Better linemates this year, 1C, better team. And he’s an OA playing for a last chance at a contract.
Barlow scored 40 goals in 50 games dealing with a back issue that had him out of the line up ~2 months.
For Kingston’s case, I hope so. That’s what they paid for.
Guindon will get ~90 pts I think. I agree with the point made about +/- as I am not convinced Guindon is the guy to match up against the better #1 centres.
 

PuckLucker

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Barlow scored 40 goals in 50 games dealing with a back issue that had him out of the line up ~2 months.

Guindon will get ~90 pts I think. I agree with the point made about +/- as I am not convinced Guindon is the guy to match up against the better #1 centres.
Holy Eff these are some lofty numbers for the player who hasn't arrived yet.
For context Shane Wright had 94 points in 2021-2022
 

dirty12

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Holy Eff these are some lofty numbers for the player who hasn't arrived yet.
For context Shane Wright had 94 points in 2021-2022
Wright was 17 in his 2nd OHL season following a year off. Guindon is 20 going into his fourth season. Guindon will also get all of the prime offensive opportunities for the first time in his OHL career.
A lot has been said about the poor year OS had, not a lot has been said about how tough the mid-west was.
 
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PuckLucker

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Plus minus is one of the most meaningless stats in hockey.
Comparing Beck on Ottawa when they were one of the best teams in the league to Guidon who was on one of the worst isn my exactly a useable comparison.

Wright was 17 in his 2nd OHL season following a year off. Guindon is 20 going into his fourth season. Guindon will also get all of the prime offensive opportunities for the first time in his OHL career.
A lot has been said about the poor year OS had, not a lot has been said about how tough the mid-west was.
I was more hinting at the fact not too many Fronts have ever put up 90 points before.
Lucas Edmonds
Jason Robertson
Shane Wright
Dal Colle

You are entitled to your opinion, I don't see him anywhere near 90 points, maybe 60 points if Coach Mann gives him the minutes.
 

dirty12

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I was more hinting at the fact not too many Fronts have ever put up 90 points before.
Lucas Edmonds
Jason Robertson
Shane Wright
Dal Colle

You are entitled to your opinion, I don't see him anywhere near 90 points, maybe 60 points if Coach Mann gives him the minutes.

Maybe 60 pts on the top line and PP? The kid has already hit 70 and 60 points as a 2nd option on a more defensive oriented team than Kingston. Maybe ~90 pts is the ceiling. Top 25 will be 80 pts with several of those missing games due injury or WJC. I think 80 pts with 65 games played on a team that really wants to win will his floor.
He might be 25 counts lower than the top +/- players though.
 
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leafs4life94

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60 points assuming health for Guindon should be a lock - he's hovered around there all three years of his career and from what I can tell (OS fans correct me), from strictly a stat watching perspective he's been the 2C behind Goure all through his career, so I don't think it's a stretch to expect a bump with a full year as 1C.

90 pts might a bit much but I fully expect him to be over PPG and around the 80pt mark, something like a 30-50 season.
 
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OMG67

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Yes. Had 69 year before as an 18 year old. whole Owen sound team had a rough year his 19 year old season- Barlow didn’t even produce well.

Better linemates this year, 1C, better team. And he’s an OA playing for a last chance at a contract.
OS wasn’t really better the year before.

By all accounts, Guindon personally had a bad season. Arguing he had a good season surrounded by bad players is disingenuous. At least start with some honesty. Then we can discuss where he is forecast to be this year.
 

OMG67

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Guindon needs to prove he can be a #1 centre. He has not been thrust into that role yet. He will get all the opposing teams attention, especially with Battaglia on his wing.

I’m not saying he is a bad player. I am only saying that placing lofty expectations on a player that hasn’t proven to be more than an average to slightly above average 2nd line centre can be dangerous.

He will get the premium ice time, no doubt. So his opportunities will increase. But, he hasn’t been better than average 5 on 5. That should be a concern. That is something that will need to improve. Either he needs to be on ice scoring more or keep the puck out of his own net. One or the other or both. That should be the main priority for him this year.

He is going to be looked upon to be a leader on ice. That will come with pressure he hasn’t needed to shoulder in the past. Can he rise to that expectation?

Again, I am not saying that he can’t. I am saying he hasn’t demonstrated that in the past so simply assuming he will because you want it doesn’t mean it will happen that way.
 

Stellar29

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OS wasn’t really better the year before.

By all accounts, Guindon personally had a bad season. Arguing he had a good season surrounded by bad players is disingenuous. At least start with some honesty. Then we can discuss where he is forecast to be this year.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Guindon had a good season last year but more that he was not an outlier amongst Attack forwards last season. I would highly recommend you not watch games from last year's Attack squad but if you did you'd see they really had horrible structure and systems that really hurt the offense. They really struggled on breakouts and spent an awful lot of time in their own end. They had no pace on transition as a result and really didn't generate anything on the rush, which is something that Guindon is good at. The forwards were way too stagnant on zone exit which allowed the opposition defense to be in position to nullify anything Owen Sound could generate. A lot of Owen Sound's offense came from puck possession in the offensive zone through the cycle which is not to Guindon's strengths.

Guindon is at his best playing with pace and taking advantage of odd man rushes where his puck distribution skills can shine. He can carry pucks at speed and make plays. I'm sure Kingston's staff will be able to better utilize his skill set within their offensive structure in addition to his special teams play.
 

OMG67

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I don't think anyone is arguing that Guindon had a good season last year but more that he was not an outlier amongst Attack forwards last season. I would highly recommend you not watch games from last year's Attack squad but if you did you'd see they really had horrible structure and systems that really hurt the offense. They really struggled on breakouts and spent an awful lot of time in their own end. They had no pace on transition as a result and really didn't generate anything on the rush, which is something that Guindon is good at. The forwards were way too stagnant on zone exit which allowed the opposition defense to be in position to nullify anything Owen Sound could generate. A lot of Owen Sound's offense came from puck possession in the offensive zone through the cycle which is not to Guindon's strengths.

Guindon is at his best playing with pace and taking advantage of odd man rushes where his puck distribution skills can shine. He can carry pucks at speed and make plays. I'm sure Kingston's staff will be able to better utilize his skill set within their offensive structure in addition to his special teams play.

Yet, he hasn’t demonstrated that. That’s my point.

You cannot just assume a player will do “X.” There is positive progression which is normal but Guindon hasn’t positively progressed since his rookie season, at least not in any significant way. Therefore, you have to consider him a bit of a wildcard.

If someone were to suggest his floor and ceiling were wider than most players then I would consider that a strong argument based on what you have detailed. But, that would mean his projection would be somewhere between 55 and 90 points, not 75-90 points.

Listen, sometimes a change does wonders for players, sometimes it doesn’t. For Kingston’s sake, let’s hope it does. But, to pretty much lock up 90 points as if it is in the bank ready to withdrawal is not realistic. Guindon needs to prove he has that in him. To date, he has not come close.
 

dirty12

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Pinning defensive short comings on systems, and team mates is a cop out. I would agree he is not suited for a team that cycles though. Guindon could not play for Barrie, and Guindon will most likely be eaten up in the defensive zone by Barrie, Oshawa, Sudbury, probably NB even after moving Wakely.

A floor of 55 points as the top offensive centre after 70 and 60 point seasons as the second option is ludicrous unless expecting 55 games played.
 

cruickshankd

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Away from all the bllshit that was with the Attack the last few seasons I beleive Cedrick will flourish....sad to see him leave but fully understand....just so glad that the team has cleaned house
 

ktownfan

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Away from all the bllshit that was with the Attack the last few seasons I beleive Cedrick will flourish....sad to see him leave but fully understand....just so glad that the team has cleaned house
I wouldn't say cleaned house, or are you referring to coaches. I think they should have gone a step further and cleared the GM
 

OMG67

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Pinning defensive short comings on systems, and team mates is a cop out. I would agree he is not suited for a team that cycles though. Guindon could not play for Barrie, and Guindon will most likely be eaten up in the defensive zone by Barrie, Oshawa, Sudbury, probably NB even after moving Wakely.

A floor of 55 points as the top offensive centre after 70 and 60 point seasons as the second option is ludicrous unless expecting 55 games played.

In fairness, his three season point totals were 57-69-59 and he played a full 68 games in each season. It isn’t unrealistic to expect an injury and a loss of five games played. If he doesn’t improve his points production, he would end up with 55 points (63 games). I don’t think a floor of 55 points is ludicrous. At least, it isn’t any more ludicrous than suggesting 90 points. 55 is 4 points less than last season. 90 is 21 points more. Would a 60 point floor be less ludicrous? Would a forecast of five points be the difference between acceptable and ludicrous?
 

dirty12

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In fairness, his three season point totals were 57-69-59 and he played a full 68 games in each season. It isn’t unrealistic to expect an injury and a loss of five games played. If he doesn’t improve his points production, he would end up with 55 points (63 games). I don’t think a floor of 55 points is ludicrous. At least, it isn’t any more ludicrous than suggesting 90 points. 55 is 4 points less than last season. 90 is 21 points more. Would a 60 point floor be less ludicrous? Would a forecast of five points be the difference between acceptable and ludicrous?

A rate of ~pt/g is the floor, and would be disappointing if not battling injury for portions of the season imo. He will be the #1 (well to start at least) option for offensive 5 vs 5 and PP opportunities for the first time. A jump of ~20 points is common enough with that kind of increase in usage.
 

PuckLucker

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A rate of ~pt/g is the floor, and would be disappointing if not battling injury for portions of the season imo. He will be the #1 (well to start at least) option for offensive 5 vs 5 and PP opportunities for the first time. A jump of ~20 points is common enough with that kind of increase in usage.
Did you watch how the Fronts performed with 5 on 5 hockey last season?
The PP was top 5 in the league, I believe the PK finished middle of the pack but 5 on 5 hockey wasn't sexy.

The Fronts & Attack were similar teams last year in terms of both finishing 7th and barely having any players that could finish with a positive +/-. Also take into account that the West was much stronger the previous year and this year the East will be much stronger.

Mann's goal is to have the Fronts finish top 4 for home ice advantage in the playoffs, which is a lofty goal.
 

dirty12

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Did you watch how the Fronts performed with 5 on 5 hockey last season?
The PP was top 5 in the league, I believe the PK finished middle of the pack but 5 on 5 hockey wasn't sexy.

The Fronts & Attack were similar teams last year in terms of both finishing 7th and barely having any players that could finish with a positive +/-. Also take into account that the West was much stronger the previous year and this year the East will be much stronger.

Mann's goal is to have the Fronts finish top 4 for home ice advantage in the playoffs, which is a lofty goal.

I’m not sure what you’re getting here. Guindon is almost certainly getting a big increase in TOI.
The attack played a more similar style to Barrie than Kingston, I think; maybe to suit Barlow. Barlow would fit perfectly in Barrie’s system, particularly with Beaudoin and Patterson. Guindon would detract from what they are trying to do. Guindon with Soto would be an entirely different situation imo, Meidema as well I think, Battaglia maybe not.
 

ottsabrefan

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Did you watch how the Fronts performed with 5 on 5 hockey last season?
The PP was top 5 in the league, I believe the PK finished middle of the pack but 5 on 5 hockey wasn't sexy.

The Fronts & Attack were similar teams last year in terms of both finishing 7th and barely having any players that could finish with a positive +/-. Also take into account that the West was much stronger the previous year and this year the East will be much stronger.

Mann's goal is to have the Fronts finish top 4 for home ice advantage in the playoffs, which is a lofty goal.
The West he played against last year was stronger than the east he will play against this year (which was even weaker than the east of last year). I’m not sure I understand your point there.
 

OMG67

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A rate of ~pt/g is the floor, and would be disappointing if not battling injury for portions of the season imo. He will be the #1 (well to start at least) option for offensive 5 vs 5 and PP opportunities for the first time. A jump of ~20 points is common enough with that kind of increase in usage.

I’m sure they likely said that last year coming into his 19 year old season but it didn’t turn out very well.
 

dirty12

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I’m sure they likely said that last year coming into his 19 year old season but it didn’t turn out very well.

Of the 65 players that had 0.97 pts/g or better, 6 were defensemen, just 3 finished the season on a non-playoff team, four teams had 5-8.
That leaves ~30 players at 0.97 pts/g or better for the remaining 12 teams. I think ~pt/g is a safe floor for the #1 centre on Kingston.
 
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ktownfan

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Rumours of Poole going to OJ in Haliburton or Cobourg? I like the kid, i think Guindon coming in forced this to happen
 

leafs4life94

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Any word on what's going to happen with JJ Salajko this year? With Lalonde and Vaccari as the main tandem, then Betts waiting in the wings he might be the 4th stringer - which means he likely spends the whole year in Jr A/Jr B (if he can - I seem to remember reading something about how Americans can't play Jr A/B).

I'm doubtful there's any kind of market for an 18 y/o goalie that's only played 12 games and didn't show a ton of promise.

Rumours of Poole going to OJ in Haliburton or Cobourg? I like the kid, i think Guindon coming in forced this to happen
I don't think there's was much of a chance Poole was coming back no matter what. There was a slim slim chance he'd maybe start the year if they couldn't find an OA that fit their needs - I think Heyes has a reasonable chance to start the year with Kingston, depending on what other OAs are available/reasonably affordable.
 
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