LeBrun: Kings want 1st-round pick, prospect for Muzzin

[Raccoon Jesus]

1st round pick plus a 2nd rounder ppg AHLer doesn't seem too cheap to me.

You're used car sale-ing me right now.

That 1st is late. Valuable, but let's not pretend it's a high 1st.

You're flattering Bracco a bit. Mike Amadio, Sheldon Rempal, Jonny Brodzinski all have PPG or higher seasons in the AHL for the Kings. If I offered any of them with a late first for a top pairing Leafs d-man, I'd rightfully be laughed off the forum. Bracco could be something, could be nothing--road to the NHL is littered with guys just like him, including those listed above.

Similar trades were posted above, even Shattenkirk brought the equivalent of a 1st and 2 2nds.

I want a little more of a sure thing for a top pairing dman. That's all. If that's one more asset like with Shattenkrik--1st, Bracco, conditional 2nd?--I could deal with it. If it's a better prospect, like 1st and Liljegran/Sandin--good.

I guess the encouraging thing is that we're not all too far off as we're simply haggling over like one tier of prospect difference ultimately.

 

[tomd]

You're used car sale-ing me right now.

That 1st is late. Valuable, but let's not pretend it's a high 1st.

You're flattering Bracco a bit. Mike Amadio, Sheldon Rempal, Jonny Brodzinski all have PPG or higher seasons in the AHL for the Kings. If I offered any of them with a late first for a top pairing Leafs d-man, I'd rightfully be laughed off the forum. Bracco could be something, could be nothing--road to the NHL is littered with guys just like him, including those listed above.

Similar trades were posted above, even Shattenkirk brought the equivalent of a 1st and 2 2nds.

I want a little more of a sure thing for a top pairing dman. That's all. If that's one more asset like with Shattenkrik--1st, Bracco, conditional 2nd?--I could deal with it. If it's a better prospect, like 1st and Liljegran/Sandin--good.

I guess the encouraging thing is that we're not all too far off as we're simply haggling over like one tier of prospect difference ultimately.

You are making good arguments but don't oversell Muzzin. He's not a top pairing D unless he's paired with one. He's a solid 2nd pairing D and he'll be valued as such by the GM's who make trades. That not devaluing him...just valuing him correctly.

 

[zeke]

You're used car sale-ing me right now.

That 1st is late. Valuable, but let's not pretend it's a high 1st.

You're flattering Bracco a bit. Mike Amadio, Sheldon Rempal, Jonny Brodzinski all have PPG or higher seasons in the AHL for the Kings. If I offered any of them with a late first for a top pairing Leafs d-man, I'd rightfully be laughed off the forum.

Similar trades were posted above, even Shattenkirk brought the equivalent of a 1st and 2 2nds.

Rempal and Brodzinski doing it at 23/24 is not the same thing, as you know. Amadio is a decent comp, though.

as for Shattenkirk, he was heavily overrated, as his ensuing contract demonstrated. People were calling him a #1 dman at the time, funnily enough.


But back to Amadio - consensus top-5 pick in your system at the same age. Not sure how much better of a prospect you would be willing to give up for a 1.5yrs of a dman like muzzin, but I doubt it would be much more than that.

For example, the most comparable prospect in the Kings system to Liljegren is Vilardi, and I doubt you guys would be attaching him to a 1st round pick in exchange for 1.5yrs of a muzzin level dman.

 

[Reaper45]

Rempal and Brodzinski doing it at 23/24 is not the same thing, as you know. Amadio is a decent comp, though.

as for Shattenkirk, he was heavily overrated, as his ensuing contract demonstrated. People were calling him a #1 dman at the time, funnily enough.


But back to Amadio - consensus top-5 pick in your system at the same age. Not sure how much better of a prospect you would be willing to give up for a 1.5yrs of a dman like muzzin, but I doubt it would be much more than that.

For example, the most comparable prospect in the Kings system to Liljegren is Vilardi, and I doubt you guys would be attaching him to a 1st round pick in exchange for 1.5yrs of a muzzin level dman.

You mean like what we did when we traded for Richards?

 

[tomd]

You mean like what we did when we traded for Richards?

Lombardi way overpaid for Richards but that is irrelevant at this point...you're only bringing back horrible memories!!

 

[zeke]

You mean like what we did when we traded for Richards?

Richards was 26yrs old, signed for 9yrs, and was generally considered a #1C at that time.

Though in retrospect, using that deal as a comp doesn't exactly make your argument.

 

[Stephen]

The poster I quoted was suggesting the kings get out of here with there ask like it was the kings demanding something. The Kings fans were not the one coming to the leafs with the ask . It was several Leaf fans coming to the kings with offers which the kings fans were countering. I am merely saying its the leafs coming to the kings with the offers not the other way around Post one was a post quoting Lebran on the kings ask for him. Leaf offer come in post 6 with other leaf fans chiming in even earlier. kings counter post 8 .

My comments were more directed at The Winter Soldier, who is a notorious Leaf provocateur who seems to be of the belief that we are locked into some certain Muzzin to Toronto scenario and Toronto will be forced to trade for him at ever increasing ask. I suggest these things are not related and that other destinations be considered before things get too crazy.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

You are making good arguments but don't oversell Muzzin. He's not a top pairing D unless he's paired with one. He's a solid 2nd pairing D and he'll be valued as such by the GM's who make trades. That not devaluing him...just valuing him correctly.

He's a #2 d-man, and as such, at least Shattenkirk value is more than fair, given Muzzin is capable of putting up similar point totals while also playing in PK and defensive situations. He's versatile. Not at all saying he's a #1, but think Brodie.

Rempal and Brodzinski doing it at 23/24 is not the same thing, as you know. Amadio is a decent comp, though.

as for Shattenkirk, he was heavily overrated, as his ensuing contract demonstrated. People were calling him a #1 dman at the time, funnily enough.

But back to Amadio - consensus top-5 pick in your system at the same age. Not sure how much better of a prospect you would be willing to give up for a 1.5yrs of a dman like muzzin, but I doubt it would be much more than that.

For example, the most comparable prospect in the Kings system to Liljegren is Vilardi, and I doubt you guys would be attaching him to a 1st round pick in exchange for 1.5yrs of a muzzin level dman.

I'm probably not the best person to ask because our team has won, and when the window is open and you're going for it, you make acceptable and appropriate sacrifices. I had little problem with us slinging every prospect and pick with the window open. Having the opportunity to address one of my team's greatest needs for the cost of a bottom-rung 1st rounder and a non-roster prospect who isn't bumping anyone off this year would have been music to my ears.

 

[Stephen]

I don't see any poster asking for 3, 1st rounders. Kinda weird folks have to lie to themselves so they can feel correct.

Liljegren and Kapanen are two recent first rounders, and the first rounder is well, a first rounder. 3 first rounders.

 

[Stephen]

In any case, if I'm Toronto, I'm not resting my championship hopes on mortgaging the whole farm on Jake Muzzin. Plenty of these supporting members of championship teams look good when they're sheltered and paired with elite franchise defensemen, but fall off quickly when they are forced into a bigger role elsewhere. Last I checked, we don't have Drew Doughty around to play with him.

In this case, it's like the Leafs need Batman but are being upsold on Robin. No thanks.

If the cost is going to be this high, I'd probably just talk to St. Louis or Carolina and get someone who doesn't have the mileage and question marks Muzzin comes with.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

In any case, if I'm Toronto, I'm not resting my championship hopes on mortgaging the whole farm on Jake Muzzin. Plenty of these supporting members of championship teams look good when they're sheltered and paired with elite franchise defensemen, but fall off quickly when they are forced into a bigger role elsewhere. Last I checked, we don't have Drew Doughty around to play with him. If the cost is going to be this high, I'd probably just talk to St. Louis or Carolina and get someone who doesn't have the mileage and question marks Muzzin comes with.

Facepalm.

We're a literal last place team.

Muzzin is excelling and he's not playing with Doughty.

There are plenty of reasons not to trade for him and that's fine, but the willful ignorance is astounding.

 

[tomd]

Facepalm.

We're a literal last place team.

Muzzin is excelling and he's not playing with Doughty.

There are plenty of reasons not to trade for him and that's fine, but the willful ignorance is astounding.

Earlier today there was a post showing the advanced stats for Muzzin...I noticed you didn't comment on them. Post #461 for your reference.

 

[zeke]

He's a #2 d-man, and as such, at least Shattenkirk value is more than fair, given Muzzin is capable of putting up similar point totals while also playing in PK and defensive situations. He's versatile. Not at all saying he's a #1, but think Brodie.




I'm probably not the best person to ask because our team has won, and when the window is open and you're going for it, you make acceptable and appropriate sacrifices. I had little problem with us slinging every prospect and pick with the window open. Having the opportunity to address one of my team's greatest needs for the cost of a bottom-rung 1st rounder and a non-roster prospect who isn't bumping anyone off this year would have been music to my ears.

be that as it may, I doubt you'd be swapping vilardi and a 1st for a good if sometimes frustrating 2/3 dman.

 

[tomd]

be that as it may, I doubt you'd be swapping vilardi and a 1st for a good if sometimes frustrating 2/3 dman.

truth.

 

[Stephen]

Facepalm.

We're a literal last place team.

Muzzin is excelling and he's not playing with Doughty.

There are plenty of reasons not to trade for him and that's fine, but the willful ignorance is astounding.

Is anyone that plays a prominent role on a "literal last place team" truly "excelling?" Doesn't seem like it's doing LA any good.

Muzzin has played the bulk of his career as Doughty's sidekick.

Yeah, don't really want him.

 

[MardyBum]

1st and a good prospect makes sense. He's been really good this year on a tire fire team, and he has an extra year left which is big.

He's someone I'm expecting Chevy is interested in depending on the price.

 

[LAKings88]

Is anyone that plays a prominent role on a "literal last place team" truly "excelling?" Doesn't seem like it's doing LA any good.

Muzzin has played the bulk of his career as Doughty's sidekick.

Yeah, don't really want him.

It’s been awhile since he played consistently with Doughty.

He has been solid this year. Just a good all around dman. He solidifies a contender’s chances at a cup. A team on the cusp would benefit from that addition. A late first is nice but it’s no lotto pick. Bracco is a completely underwhelming throw in as a Kings fan. Muzzin is probably underwhelming for Toronto fans but it seems to be a sellers market on defense.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Is anyone that plays a prominent role on a "literal last place team" truly "excelling?" Doesn't seem like it's doing LA any good.

Muzzin has played the bulk of his career as Doughty's sidekick.

Yeah, don't really want him.

That screeching is the sound of you moving the goalposts.

I wish Doughty played with Muzzin instead of a parade of corpses.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

be that as it may, I doubt you'd be swapping vilardi and a 1st for a good if sometimes frustrating 2/3 dman.

I'm not going to split hairs on Vilardi vs. Liljegren because that's a whole different world of discussion given Vilardi's injuries, but at the height of our window, you bet your behind I would have traded a 1st and Vilardi (assuming full health) if it would have been a top pairing d-man that solved the Voynov problem. Instead we traded a 1st and McKeown for a few games of Sekera. Trying to be 'budget' about it was almost worse.

Trading Liljegren and a 1st would be an attempt to 'speed up' the process and it's totally fair to be against it but I appreciate that you at least see the validity of the idea.

 

[Stephen]

That screeching is the sound of you moving the goalposts.

What goal posts? I don't think goal posts screech. I don't really want Muzzin. I don't think he's that good. I don't want to convince you Bracco and a 1st are a good package for him. I don't want to give you Kapanen, or Liljegren. Or a 1st. I don't think his value goes up or down relative to how "desperate" Toronto is. I don't think your rebuilding needs are tied to our contending needs. I don't think we should trade with one another. I said LA should think about other trade partners to get what they think they deserve.

 

[Osprey]

Muzzin is excelling and he's not playing with Doughty.

He's excelling while playing on the 2nd pairing and receiving the lowest Quality of Competition of the top 4. You want to receive a package for him that befits a 1st-pairing/#2 defenseman, and that's fine, but he's not playing that role (and hasn't played it for several years), so it's understandable that some fans of other teams are hesitant to give up such a package. I know that, if I were interested in acquiring a player and his fans wanted to be compensated as though he's something that he's not his role at the moment, I'd be hesitant, too.

 

[Stephen]

That screeching is the sound of you moving the goalposts.

I wish Doughty played with Muzzin instead of a parade of corpses.

What are you talking about? They've played with each other for years. Just because they're separated now doesn't mean the bulk of Muzzin's career hasn't been beside Doughty. And look at how good the Kings are now that they're separated. We don't have a Doughty in Toronto to pump up Muzzin.

 

[God King Fudge]

Yes but the Rangers also got Namestnikov. Who do you value more? Seems like a wash to me. That's why I didn't mention it.

Well, Namestnikov has 16 pts in 44 games and Miller has 27 in 43. I value the guy that has 11 more points in one fewer game.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Earlier today there was a post showing the advanced stats for Muzzin...I noticed you didn't comment on them. Post #461 for your reference.

No, because it was literally just an out-of-context rant about literally only his competition from a guy who has had a serial dislike for Muzzin.

I know you like when you think people do your homework for you, but maybe you should critically think for yourself instead of going on an ignorance piggyback ride.

Yes, consider his deployment, I always say that and you know it, but on a bottom-run possession team, here are your Muzzin advanced stats: 50.45% CF% (3.79 rel, tops on LA D), 59.02 GF% (18.02 rel, tops on LA period), 42.29% ozone starts (lowest amongst regular Kings' dmen).

He's only played 75 minutes with DD. He's played over twice that with arguably-worst-dman-in-the-league Sean Walker, and 520 minutes with Alec Martinez.

For your reference.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

He's excelling while playing on the 2nd pairing and receiving the lowest Quality of Competition of the top 4. You want to receive a package for him that befits a 1st-pairing/#2 defenseman, and that's fine, but he's not playing that role (and hasn't played it for several years), so it's understandable that some fans of other teams are hesitant to give up such a package. I suspect that, in their shoes, you'd be skeptical of the sellers' sales pitch and wary of overpaying, too.

See: Shattenkirk, Kevin.

You say he hasn't played that role in years, but you ignored the 'why' earlier in this thread--the evaporation of the depth behind him. LA feels his best usage is carrying a 2nd pairing with him and Martinez while saddling doughty with the corpse du jour; I obviously disagree. I think Martinez and Muzzin are totally toxic together and I hate that Doughty is given the worst assignments with the worst partner. But he's by far the clear #2 d on LA in talent and SHOULD BE in role, they're just trying to mitigate the bleeding from elsewhere by using him to anchor a 2nd pairing isntead of using him next to Doughty.

Hey if I had my way I'd roll Doughty and Muzzin out 30 minutes a game and let the rest of the losers fight for scraps, but I can understand why they don't want a bottom four of Martinez-Fantenberg / Phaneuf-Forbort, and you should at least pretend you understand that as well.