Rumor: KINGS 2018-19 Season- Luc/Rob ****Show/ Sell Everyone!! Part 3

[KINGS17]

That's only the vet unit, though. The second unit looks different damn near every time, both in terms of personnel and setup. I'd love to see what the splits are in effectiveness between the two.

Which leads me to believe it is not coaching. I still don't believe Kompon ever told Kopitar to glue his ass to the half wall and hardly ever move. There have been too many different power play coaches with the same results. The only constant is a certain group of players.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Which leads me to believe it is not coaching. I still don't believe Kompon ever told Kopitar to glue his ass to the half wall and hardly ever move. There have been too many different power play coaches with the same results. The only constant is a certain group of players.

I remember Sutter saying something like "no one is telling them to not go to the net."

But it's coaching to some degree because why stick him to that wall for a decade? put him in the middle, on the other wall, even on the point where he has to make a decision that's not "throw it back to the point".

Sort of the on-ice equivalent of Art Howe-ing him, take away his safety blanket!

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Kopitar is the most predictable player on the ice. There is zero deception in anything he does, because every defender on opposing PK units know exactly where he's going to go. The Kings PP pretty much eliminates 2 out of the 5 skaters, and the puck mostly goes through Kopitar, who defers to Doughty or Kovalchuk. He is rarely every used as an option to shoot the puck. Only recently we've seen Toffoli be used as a high slot shooting option.

Kopitar doesn't even attempt to go below the goal line or inch closer towards the net, and other PK units are just happy giving him that right side wall to operate from, because he's not much of a threat to do anything from there.

 

[KINGS17]

I remember Sutter saying something like "no one is telling them to not go to the net."

But it's coaching to some degree because why stick him to that wall for a decade? put him in the middle, on the other wall, even on the point where he has to make a decision that's not "throw it back to the point".

Sort of the on-ice equivalent of Art Howe-ing him, take away his safety blanket!

I agree to some extent. What happens on the ice is up to the players to a large extent. The personnel on the ice is almost entirely up to the coach.

I wouldn't waste Kopitar's talent by simply placing him in front of the net. That would not be putting him in a position to succeed. I would like to see them use an umbrella once in a while with him at the top (not much difference between a defenseman and Kopitar in terms of being able to defend), which might force him to move his feet more and shoot more often.

The stats posted the other day on the number of shots Kopitar has on the power play are ridiculously low.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I remember Sutter saying something like "no one is telling them to not go to the net."

But it's coaching to some degree because why stick him to that wall for a decade? put him in the middle, on the other wall, even on the point where he has to make a decision that's not "throw it back to the point".

Sort of the on-ice equivalent of Art Howe-ing him, take away his safety blanket!

I think players will just gravitate toward where they're comfortable. Tell Kopitar to stand in the slot, and he'll find his way to the wall.

Kopitar is so pass first, that if you give him a winger that can actually score, he'll always defer to him. When Gaborik started scoring in 2014, we barely saw another goal from Kopitar in the playoffs. I still don't know how they managed to beat both Chicago and NY with 0 goals from him for 12 consecutive games. When Gaborik was here in 14-15, Kopitar had his worst full season goal total up to that point. Not that he's played with Kovalchuk much, but when they're out there on the PP, if they manage to even have control of the puck, Kopitar is trying to get him shots. Kopitar's PP shot totals are usually in the 40's, but they've been at their lowest(in or on pace for in the 20's) in 14-15, and 18-19.

Putting talent around Kopitar doesn't make him better. Like you say, you have to Art Howe him. Put him with Clifford and Lewis, which will force him to be the guy. Kopitar had his best statistical year with 9 goal Iafallo, and back from the dead Brown.

 

[Fishhead]

Unless the Kings plan on tanking again next season, they absolutely can not continue to roll out the Forbort/Doughty top pairing. It is ridiculous to pay a guy 11 million and handicap him the way they have.

When paired together: 46 CF%, 45 FF%, 44 SF%, 43 GF%, 44 SCF%, 45 HDCF%.
Drew without Forbort: 54 CF%, 53 FF%, 54 SF%, 48 GF%, 50 SCF%, 51 HDCF%.

Obviously Drew has not been up to the level of play we all expect and his effort has been questionable, but a huge portion of his(and subsequently the team's) decline has been his partner. Forbort can be a solid bottom pairing guy who can PK, but he shouldn't be logging so many minutes and definitely shouldn't be tied to Doughty night in, night out.

I've been saying this back to when McNabb was here, but he was such a whipping boy very few agreed. Drew's numbers with Brayden were phenomenal, they had a synergy that made both better. His numbers drop like a stone when paired with Forbort compared to other players. I understand why they protected Forbort over McNabb, but it turned out even worse than even I thought it would.

 

[AzKing]

Would Forbort qualify as the definition of a 1st round bust? It's hard to see him getting that much better at this point. Do you sign him, trade him or let him walk after his contract expires?

 

[KINGS17]

I think players will just gravitate toward where they're comfortable. Tell Kopitar to stand in the slot, and he'll find his way to the wall.

Kopitar is so pass first, that if you give him a winger that can actually score, he'll always defer to him. When Gaborik started scoring in 2014, we barely saw another goal from Kopitar in the playoffs. I still don't know how they managed to beat both Chicago and NY with 0 goals from him for 12 consecutive games. When Gaborik was here in 14-15, Kopitar had his worst full season goal total up to that point. Not that he's played with Kovalchuk much, but when they're out there on the PP, if they manage to even have control of the puck, Kopitar is trying to get him shots. Kopitar's PP shot totals are usually in the 40's, but they've been at their lowest(in or on pace for in the 20's) in 14-15, and 18-19.

Putting talent around Kopitar doesn't make him better. Like you say, you have to Art Howe him. Put him with Clifford and Lewis, which will force him to be the guy. Kopitar had his best statistical year with 9 goal Iafallo, and back from the dead Brown.

This is why Sutter would put Kopitar with King and Nolan from time to time. The guy almost refuses to shoot the puck unless he can pass it into the net.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Would Forbort qualify as the definition of a 1st round bust? It's hard to see him getting that much better at this point. Do you sign him, trade him or let him walk after his contract expires?

I'd say to qualify as a bust, he'd have to be out of the NHL or just struggle to stay in the league. I guess a major disappointment is more apt, especially when you look at who was selected afterwards. Same applies with the Hickey pick. Now Colten Teubert, that is a monumental bust.

 

[Johnny Utah]

I wonder who the Kings go after as head coach this summer. Promote Sturm? Todd McLellan?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I think players will just gravitate toward where they're comfortable. Tell Kopitar to stand in the slot, and he'll find his way to the wall.

Kopitar is so pass first, that if you give him a winger that can actually score, he'll always defer to him. When Gaborik started scoring in 2014, we barely saw another goal from Kopitar in the playoffs. I still don't know how they managed to beat both Chicago and NY with 0 goals from him for 12 consecutive games. When Gaborik was here in 14-15, Kopitar had his worst full season goal total up to that point. Not that he's played with Kovalchuk much, but when they're out there on the PP, if they manage to even have control of the puck, Kopitar is trying to get him shots. Kopitar's PP shot totals are usually in the 40's, but they've been at their lowest(in or on pace for in the 20's) in 14-15, and 18-19.

Putting talent around Kopitar doesn't make him better. Like you say, you have to Art Howe him. Put him with Clifford and Lewis, which will force him to be the guy. Kopitar had his best statistical year with 9 goal Iafallo, and back from the dead Brown.

Just the bold part, because people ignore the fact that no matter HOW you slice it, if the line was Gaborik, Kopitar and Brown and in those 12 games, Gaborik had 10 goals and 6 assists and Brown had 8 goals and 4 assists, and Kopitar had 0 goals and 18 assists, he still drove, 18 goals.

Its the entire argument, would you rather have a 40 goal scorer.....or a guy with 50 assists? People ALWAYS choose the 40 goals, regardless of the fact that they are actually giving up 10 goals by doing that.

 

[crassbonanza]

I wonder who the Kings go after as head coach this summer. Promote Sturm? Todd McLellan?

I'm hoping for Sturm or Gronberg, I think it would be exciting to have a coach with experience coaching in Europe to bring a unique point of view.

 

[dman3474]

I wonder who the Kings go after as head coach this summer. Promote Sturm? Todd McLellan?

I'm hoping Sheldon Keefe. He was looked at for coaching the Rangers, here is one part that stuck out to me:

"I was told a story recently where Keefe had to spend time in training camp with new players and force them to unlearn cliche concepts of getting pucks deep and making safe plays. Keefe wants a team that values possession of the puck. His teams execute breakouts so well, and do not punt the puck when under pressure in the neutral zone."

Stop the dump and chase! Play more hockey like we do in 3on3 OT

The article has other write-ups on some coaches
New York Rangers’ Head Coaching Search: Nine Potential Options

 

[crassbonanza]

Just the bold part, because people ignore the fact that no matter HOW you slice it, if the line was Gaborik, Kopitar and Brown and in those 12 games, Gaborik had 10 goals and 6 assists and Brown had 8 goals and 4 assists, and Kopitar had 0 goals and 18 assists, he still drove, 18 goals.

Its the entire argument, would you rather have a 40 goal scorer.....or a guy with 50 assists? People ALWAYS choose the 40 goals, regardless of the fact that they are actually giving up 10 goals by doing that.

I think people will typically choose the 40 goals over the 50 assists, because goal scoring is a primary point, while assists can sometimes be secondary.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I think people will typically choose the 40 goals over the 50 assists, because goal scoring is a primary point, while assists can sometimes be secondary.

Ok, sure, but think about what you are saying....secondary or not, it doesn't matter man,.....if he's getting an assist...that means a damn goal was scored....it's simply amazing how many people just fail on that logic, (not saying you are, just in general)

 

[crassbonanza]

I'm hoping Sheldon Keefe. He was looked at for coaching the Rangers, here is one part that stuck out to me:

"I was told a story recently where Keefe had to spend time in training camp with new players and force them to unlearn cliche concepts of getting pucks deep and making safe plays. Keefe wants a team that values possession of the puck. His teams execute breakouts so well, and do not punt the puck when under pressure in the neutral zone."

Stop the dump and chase! Play more hockey like we do in 3on3 OT

The article has other write-ups on some coaches
New York Rangers’ Head Coaching Search: Nine Potential Options

I disagree with the concept of ditching the dump and chase completely, because it is a necessary component of zone entries. I think that concept is the perfect example of how analytics can lead people astray because the game is not played in a spreadsheet. If you look at the analytics, controlled zone entries produce better possession, and more scoring chances than the dump and chase. So, analytically every team should focus solely on controlled zone entries, right? However, there are a few problems with that analysis.

First, controlled zone entries typically happen when the other team is at a disadvantage already, either an odd man rush or a turnover leading to a rapid rush catching the defenders on their heels. This situation is already a positive scenario, so the controlled zone entry did not play a major role in the success.

Second, if teams decide to focus mainly on controlled zone entry, defenders can stand up at the blue line to force more turnovers. The dump and chase forces defensemen to hedge back in order to retrieve and move the puck before the forecheck arrives. The dump and chase in itself assists in creating controlled zone entries, eliminating or minimizing the amount of times that you dump and chase will make controlled zone entries even more difficult.

Third, controlled zone entries are much more dangerous, a failed controlled zone entry can become dangerous very fast, leading to odd man rushes and defensemen on their heels. A failed dump and chase still has the puck 200 feet from your own goal.

Lastly, and this one is not as quantifiable, but the dump and chase with a heavy forecheck really wears on the opposition. The constant pressure and contact laid on defensemen seems to lead to turnovers over time, they have to contstantly look over their shoulders and move the puck quickly.

I am all for attempting more controlled zone entries, but a lot of analytics bloggers are out of their minds in their obsession with completely eliminating the dump and chase in my opinion.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I wonder who the Kings go after as head coach this summer. Promote Sturm? Todd McLellan?

I thought the Kings brought Sturm in so that he could take over as head coach next season.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Just the bold part, because people ignore the fact that no matter HOW you slice it, if the line was Gaborik, Kopitar and Brown and in those 12 games, Gaborik had 10 goals and 6 assists and Brown had 8 goals and 4 assists, and Kopitar had 0 goals and 18 assists, he still drove, 18 goals.

Its the entire argument, would you rather have a 40 goal scorer.....or a guy with 50 assists? People ALWAYS choose the 40 goals, regardless of the fact that they are actually giving up 10 goals by doing that.

You're a little off there. Gaborik had 5 goals, and Brown had 4. Kopitar had 7 assists.

Normally, you don't get to slide with your top C getting 0 goals(who also led the team in goals during the regular season). It's just another in the long line of amazing facts from the 2014 run. One more, Kopitar had 2 more shots on net than Lewis in those 12 games. In addition to the goals from Gaborik and Brown, Carter had 6, Toffoli/Doughty/Williams all had 4, Martinez/Muzzin had 3 each. They did it by having stupid production from all their depth for a month.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

You're a little off there. Gaborik had 5 goals, and Brown had 4. Kopitar had 7 assists.

Normally, you don't get to slide with your top C getting 0 goals(who also led the team in goals during the regular season). It's just another in the long line of amazing facts from the 2014 run. One more, Kopitar had 2 more shots on net than Lewis in those 12 games. In addition to the goals from Gaborik and Brown, Carter had 6, Toffoli/Doughty/Williams all had 4, Martinez/Muzzin had 3 each. They did it by having stupid production from all their depth for a month.

I was making the number up to make a point......

You have two players, pick one for me please,

Player A

20:00 ATOI, + 40, 40 G, 20 A

Player B

20:45 ATOI + 40, 10 G, 60 A

Who do you take?

MOST people are going to take the 40 G scorer......despite the fact that they are giving up 10 more goals that the players have produced,

Player A has produced, 60 GF for that team

Player B has produced 70 GF for that team, but everyone always picks player A....it's astounding to me.

 

[BigKing]

I was making the number up to make a point......

You have two players, pick one for me please,

Player A

20:00 ATOI, + 40, 40 G, 20 A

Player B

20:45 ATOI + 40, 10 G, 60 A

Who do you take?

MOST people are going to take the 40 G scorer......despite the fact that they are giving up 10 more goals that the players have produced,

Player A has produced, 60 GF for that team

Player B has produced 70 GF for that team, but everyone always picks player A....it's astounding to me.

Give me the finisher since there is probably someone riding shotgun that is setting him up.

2016 Caps:

Ovechkin: 50 goals, 71 points, +21
Kuznetsov: 20 goals, 77 points +27

I'm still taking Ovi.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Give me the finisher since there is probably someone riding shotgun that is setting him up.

2016 Caps:

Ovechkin: 50 goals, 71 points, +21
Kuznetsov: 20 goals, 77 points +27

I'm still taking Ovi.

And you are giving up 6 goals, not a lot in this instance, but do it 5 times, that's 30 goals..... or the difference between being 30th in the league in GF vs 17th, give or take there

 

[Fishhead]

I'm hoping Sheldon Keefe. He was looked at for coaching the Rangers, here is one part that stuck out to me:

"I was told a story recently where Keefe had to spend time in training camp with new players and force them to unlearn cliche concepts of getting pucks deep and making safe plays. Keefe wants a team that values possession of the puck. His teams execute breakouts so well, and do not punt the puck when under pressure in the neutral zone."

Stop the dump and chase! Play more hockey like we do in 3on3 OT

The article has other write-ups on some coaches
New York Rangers’ Head Coaching Search: Nine Potential Options

Keefe was who I wanted when Stevens was fired. I'd love for them to take a look at him. He really seems to like his players to adapt to situations using creativity and instinct more than following a rigid structure.

 

[BigKing]

And you are giving up 6 goals, not a lot in this instance, but do it 5 times, that's 30 goals..... or the difference between being 30th in the league in GF vs 17th, give or take there

Ok, but then I'm doing it five times which is a lot different than a one v. one choice.

 

[KINGS17]

You're a little off there. Gaborik had 5 goals, and Brown had 4. Kopitar had 7 assists.

Normally, you don't get to slide with your top C getting 0 goals(who also led the team in goals during the regular season). It's just another in the long line of amazing facts from the 2014 run. One more, Kopitar had 2 more shots on net than Lewis in those 12 games. In addition to the goals from Gaborik and Brown, Carter had 6, Toffoli/Doughty/Williams all had 4, Martinez/Muzzin had 3 each. They did it by having stupid production from all their depth for a month.

An amazing run in 2014 by players who were essentially on the 3rd line, with Justin Williams winning the Connie.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Ok, but then I'm doing it five times which is a lot different than a one v. one choice.

Fair enough, I'm just pointing out that at the end of the season, it doesn't matter WHO scores the goals or WHO gets the assists, it's the total amount when it comes relative to winning......

Would we be a better team with Ovechkin on the team scoring 60 goals a season but the team still coming in last with 160 goals scored etc?