Rumor: KINGS 2018-19 Season- Luc/Rob ****Show/ Sell Everyone!! Part 3

[crassbonanza]

This is borderline NHLPA propaganda. Kopitar was paid millions of dollars for his service to the team and fanbase. He’s not some selfless crusader. And this is a business. Unflinching, unreasonable loyalty to players on the basis of their past accomplishments is *exactly* what got us into this mess in the first place.

Kopitar drew a hard line on his retirement contract, which put the team in a very poor position in 2016. His outrageous contract will only continue to cripple the team’s ability to execute a proper rebuild.

I don’t have any sympathy for these players. No, I don’t expect them to take a home town discount. But if they expect to be paid $10 million when they’re 36 years old, they shouldn’t be surprised if and when they’re sent packing.

You are proposing that the Kings screw over a player in bad faith. He signed a contract with the team that included clauses to protect his future, trading him just before the clause kicks in is making a deal in bad faith and is a dick move. It is even more of a dick move when he is one of the greatest players to ever play for your franchise and is a couple of seasons removed from leading the team to it's first stanley cups. Again, don't sign him if you don't want him on the team, but don't f*** him over. Also, how did it put the team in a poor position? What did the Kings miss out on by him taking up 3 million in additional cap space? and how is it going to affect a proper rebuild? You know that cap space is meaningless in the midst of a rebuild right?

 

[3firstnames]

Who wants to read a super condescending article telling us why tanking isn't a thing (no ****, we know they aren't losing on purpose), and that Jack Hughes isn't a quick fix (again, no ****)?

Why #LoseForHughes Is Not a Real Thing for the LA Kings

I tend to think he's right. McDavid being exhibit A. its fun to imagine having the first round draft pick but it promises nothing

 

[BigKing]

I'd rather have one of the best players in the league than not have one of them.

1st overall doesn't guarantee one of the best players in the league and neither does actually having one of the best players in the league guarantee results; however, the horrific management of the McDavid Oilers doesn't mean anyone should rather pick 12th instead of 1st.

I can say this as a guarantee: The Kings don't have two Cups right now without finishing last in '08 and taking Doughty at #2OA. Hawks don't have shit without getting Toews and then winning the lottery and getting Kane at #1OA. There are examples both ways but, at the end of the day, picking earlier is always better than later: you just have to pick correctly. You should have a lower bust rate at #1OA then at #11OA etc.

 

[3firstnames]

I'd rather have one of the best players in the league than not have one of them.

1st overall doesn't guarantee one of the best players in the league and neither does actually having one of the best players in the league guarantee results; however, the horrific management of the McDavid Oilers doesn't mean anyone should rather pick 12th instead of 1st.

I can say this as a guarantee: The Kings don't have two Cups right now without finishing last in '08 and taking Doughty at #2OA. Hawks don't have **** without getting Toews and then winning the lottery and getting Kane at #1OA. There are examples both ways but, at the end of the day, picking earlier is always better than later: you just have to pick correctly. You should have a lower bust rate at #1OA then at #11OA etc.

Its true its best to pick sooner than later. there is a thread on the main board about "whispers" of CM wanting out. the general idea is that oiler management has been a massive failure and he's being wasted there. im just saying i agree with the article in that one player doesnt make a team. youre absolutly right though; not picking busts are the other side of the equation and just as crucial as having those early picks.

 

[KopitarFAN]

I tend to think he's right. McDavid being exhibit A. its fun to imagine having the first round draft pick but it promises nothing

But that's not the point, he's alleging that people think the players are losing purpose (not the case), or that people think the front office is deliberately putting a poor product in order to lose (also not the case, we've rarely (if ever) seen this since the Pens tanked for Mario).

Do high picks always work out? no. Even if they do, does it always equate to success? No. See Oilers. However, virtually every good team has multiple Top 10 picks leading the way, and every team that has won post lockout had at one least Top 5 pick, the exception being Detroit, thanks to their freakish drafting of the 90s.

Point is, i'd rather lose a few meaningless in February & March to have a better chance at having the pick of the litter.

 

[BigKing]

With the contract issues this team has, it needs impact players on entry level contracts.

It has needed them for a few seasons actually with the lack of these players being bemoaned for the past four seasons.

I want to pick 30th each season but I'd rather draft Top 5 for a few seasons v. 10-24 for multiple years in a row. Kings drafted there from like 98 until Lombardi's 2nd draft. Without a generational draft and teams being stupid about Slovenia, the Kings are getting jack shit out of the 1st round.

Hickey-Doughty-Schenn

Lombardi screwed up the Hickey pick (I thought Voracek was the play there) and got hurt by Chicago winning the lottery. That said, Hickey has at least had a career. Doughty speaks for itself and Schenn has been productive while being the main chip in the deal that brought Richards.

There is obviously luck involved still as LA probably takes Bogosian or Schenn if they don't get 2OA in Doughty's year so there are no guarantees; however, those guys were still assets early on as Schenn got moved for JVR.

You still need to mine gold from picks after the 1st round to be in a really good spot, but it just gets harder and harder to do so.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

You are proposing that the Kings screw over a player in bad faith. He signed a contract with the team that included clauses to protect his future, trading him just before the clause kicks in is making a deal in bad faith and is a dick move. It is even more of a dick move when he is one of the greatest players to ever play for your franchise and is a couple of seasons removed from leading the team to it's first stanley cups. Again, don't sign him if you don't want him on the team, but don't **** him over. Also, how did it put the team in a poor position? What did the Kings miss out on by him taking up 3 million in additional cap space? and how is it going to affect a proper rebuild? You know that cap space is meaningless in the midst of a rebuild right?

That cap space is not meaningless in 22/23 when the Kings are hypothetically a young up and coming team again looking to add pieces. Both Kopitar and Doughty’s outrageous cap hits will hamper the Kings ability to properly spend to the cap for the duration of their contracts. I have little doubt Kopitar will be CBOed after the next CBA is signed.

As for the rest of your post, it’s a business. I’d rather Lombardi not sign him at all in 15/16, and reevaluate over summer. But sometimes you have to make difficult decisions for the sake of the long term health of the franchise.

What good has Kopitar’s new deal brought to this franchise?

 

[Peter James Bond II]

That cap space is not meaningless in 22/23 when the Kings are hypothetically a young up and coming team again looking to add pieces. Both Kopitar and Doughty’s outrageous cap hits will hamper the Kings ability to properly spend to the cap for the duration of their contracts. I have little doubt Kopitar will be CBOed after the next CBA is signed.

As for the rest of your post, it’s a business. I’d rather Lombardi not sign him at all in 15/16, and reevaluate over summer. But sometimes you have to make difficult decisions for the sake of the long term health of the franchise.

What good has Kopitar’s new deal brought to this franchise?

Its allowed Kopitar to retire early - as in now - not at the conclusion of the contract - to conceal it, he shows up at practice and plays the games - and puts in about 80% of his potential drive and
determination. Thus, to most observers, it appears as though nothing is wrong. His attitude is not to self reflect about his fallen production or really care to the point of being pissed
about his or teams results...and TRUE, he does play 22 minutes....give him that. He shouldn't be.

He needs a little Auston Matthews attitude adjustment Matthews "I give it all everyday and push myself to be the best player in the world" (or something like that)
Kopi needs that instilled into his mindset and focus. I am sure when the Kings have a PP , he goes out there and feels he needs to control the wall and look for a great pass
to make....his attitude must SHIFT " I am going to find a hole and bust into the net and score a fukkking goal, going to beat down a defenseman on his azz and
jam the net" Guarantee he never thinks that. I bet he doesnt even care much that he doesn't have a single PP goal. THAT'S A PROBLEM. It's like "Brownie is in front, he's gonna get it in the net...Kovy has the 1 timer, he'll get one by the goalie...Carts in the slot, get it to him' NO, take responsibility to put it by the goalie yourself...go watch Ryan OReilly play the half wall and he scores...he's 5 feet off the wall and 8 feet closer to the goal and makes things happen, including busting in and scoring goals. Guarantee you he has an attitude to want to score as much as he wants to dish to Tarasenko.

 

[crassbonanza]

That cap space is not meaningless in 22/23 when the Kings are hypothetically a young up and coming team again looking to add pieces. Both Kopitar and Doughty’s outrageous cap hits will hamper the Kings ability to properly spend to the cap for the duration of their contracts. I have little doubt Kopitar will be CBOed after the next CBA is signed.

As for the rest of your post, it’s a business. I’d rather Lombardi not sign him at all in 15/16, and reevaluate over summer. But sometimes you have to make difficult decisions for the sake of the long term health of the franchise.

What good has Kopitar’s new deal brought to this franchise?

Well, it brought us the season with the msot points in franchise history, it brought us a Hart nominated season, it brought the fans a lot of excitement. Hell, by your standards, prior to last season, what good did the Ovechkin contract bring the Caps franchise? What good has the McDavid contract brought the Oilers franchise? What good has the Stamkos contract brought the Lightning franchise? You are setting here building up a scenario where the Kings might potentially miss out on a free agent in 2023 in order to complain about one of the best players in franchise history. That is insane.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Well, it brought us the season with the msot points in franchise history, it brought us a Hart nominated season, it brought the fans a lot of excitement. Hell, by your standards, prior to last season, what good did the Ovechkin contract bring the Caps franchise? What good has the McDavid contract brought the Oilers franchise? What good has the Stamkos contract brought the Lightning franchise? You are setting here building up a scenario where the Kings might potentially miss out on a free agent in 2023 in order to complain about one of the best players in franchise history. That is insane.

And now I'm surrounded by straw men.

I don't at all complain about Kopitar's second contract, which was fair value and brought us two Cups during its lifetime.

Ovechkin's multiple contracts have brought the Capitals years of legitimate contention. The Capitals have missed the playoffs THREE times in the past 13 years. In those 13 years, they have made it out of the first round 7 times. So yes, I would say Ovechkin’s contracts have brought the Capitals pretty damn good value.

Stamkos is on a much better deal than Kopitar. No comparison. We’ll see what happens with the Oilers through the remainder of McDavid’s deal. But if you want to compare Kopitar to the best player in the world, go right on ahead.

The only insanity here is your attempted justifications of paying a 36 year old center $10 million in 23/24.

And yes, I am setting a scenario in which the Kings will be strapped down by horrific contracts in 2023. Do the Kings win a Cup in 2012 if Lombardi gives Mike Cammalleri a huge contract in 2009? What about that rumored Drury deal in the summer of 2007?

Long term contracts have long term consequences for contending teams. Your failure to see that is telling.

 

[crassbonanza]

And now I'm surrounded by straw men.

I don't at all complain about Kopitar's second contract, which was fair value and brought us two Cups during its lifetime.

Ovechkin's multiple contracts have brought the Capitals years of legitimate contention. The Capitals have missed the playoffs THREE times in the past 13 years. In those 13 years, they have made it out of the first round 7 times. So yes, I would say Ovechkin’s contracts have brought the Capitals pretty damn good value.

Stamkos is on a much better deal than Kopitar. No comparison. We’ll see what happens with the Oilers through the remainder of McDavid’s deal. But if you want to compare Kopitar to the best player in the world, go right on ahead.

The only insanity here is your attempted justifications of paying a 36 year old center $10 million in 23/24.

And yes, I am setting a scenario in which the Kings will be strapped down by horrific contracts in 2023. Do the Kings win a Cup in 2012 if Lombardi gives Mike Cammalleri a huge contract in 2009? What about that rumored Drury deal in the summer of 2007?

Long term contracts have long term consequences for contending teams. Your failure to see that is telling.

You asked what has Kopitar's contract given the Kings and I pointed out what it has. I'm not even trying to defend that, the insanity is you joyfully wishing that the Kings would have f***ed over one of the greatest to ever wear the f***ing jersey. All I have been arguing with you is that signing him to a contract that includes a clause, just to trade him before it kicks in is f***ed up. And I wouldn't want my team to do that to a player who has given as much to the team as Kopitar has.

 

[BigKing]

Most points in franchise history?

 

[Choralone]

Lots of mind-readers in these threads.

 

[crassbonanza]

Most points in franchise history?

My bad, I forgot they had 105 in '74, 2015-16 was actually the second most points in franchise history.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Lots of mind-readers in these threads.

Which is scary, most days I can't even read my own mind

 

[SettlementRichie10]

You asked what has Kopitar's contract given the Kings and I pointed out what it has. I'm not even trying to defend that, the insanity is you joyfully wishing that the Kings would have ****ed over one of the greatest to ever wear the ****ing jersey. All I have been arguing with you is that signing him to a contract that includes a clause, just to trade him before it kicks in is ****ed up. And I wouldn't want my team to do that to a player who has given as much to the team as Kopitar has.

Kopitar’s current deal has given us two playoff-less years, and one Hart nominated year that ended in a first round sweep.

Are you aware that Kopitar’s current deal began in 16/17?

I’m not advocating for screwing over anyone. I’m advocating for shrewd management. If you would actually read my posts, I originally advocated for not signing an extension at all until the summer of 2016, at which point the future of the franchise could be truly evaluated.

Undying loyalty to player’s past accomplishments is EXACTLY why the team is a total dumpster fire this year. Do you really dispute that?

 

[BigKing]

My bad, I forgot they had 105 in '74, 2015-16 was actually the second most points in franchise history.

No worries. I just don't think of any Kings team in the 2000's setting any good, regular season records except for the winning streak in 2010. I also don't care as much about 102 points in the shootout era, but that is another discussion.

Regarding Kopitar and the other made men, I get it. You don't want to eff over these guys. Now, an argument could be made that he would get insane dollars wherever he was traded to, or on the open market, but I get where you are coming from.

Go to hockey-reference and look at the list of Kings seasons. It is pretty ugly. The blip on the screen is three years from 2012-'14. I understand rewarding these guys and not treating it like a business because this was so special.

Never again. The next Cup--if it ever happens--will be special but it won't be like the first two: especially the first. Has to be treated like a business moving forward, just like the player not giving a discount is treating it like a business: as they should.

 

[crassbonanza]

Kopitar’s current deal has given us two playoff-less years, and one Hart nominated year that ended in a first round sweep.

Are you aware that Kopitar’s current deal began in 16/17?

I’m not advocating for screwing over anyone. I’m advocating for shrewd management. If you would actually read my posts, I originally advocated for not signing an extension at all until the summer of 2016, at which point the future of the franchise could be truly evaluated.

Undying loyalty to player’s past accomplishments is EXACTLY why the team is a total dumpster fire this year. Do you really dispute that?

That's fine that you advocated elsewhere that you would have rather not re-signed him. My only issue and the single thing we have been arguing about this whole time is regarding your advocation for Visnovsky-ing him. Also, are you blaming the two playoff-less years on Kopitars making 3 million more? What role do you think his contract played in us being unable to ice a better team? Did we lose anyone due to his contract? The reason this team is a dumpster fire this year is because the Kings wisely decided to go all in while they had a cup window open. This led to 3 deep playoff runs and 2 Stanley Cups. I don't agree with all fo the moves(Lucic), but there was always going to be consequences for attempting to capitalize on a cup window. A part of that is keeping your number 1 center, who provided a Hart nominated season, that will obviously decline at some point along the contract.

 

[KingsFan7824]

No, I don’t blame Dean for still trying to “go for it” in both 14/15 and 15/16, even though it was clear even at the time that 15/16 was a lot of smoke and mirrors.

After that Sharks series, it was also clear this team didn’t have the magic anymore, and they were only going to get worse. I 100% jumped on the rebuild train after 15/16, as many of us did.

It would have been dirty business, but Lombardi could have still pulled a Visnovsky and traded Kopitar in the summer of 2016 before his extension kicked in. We would have gotten more than just a late 1st and a prospect.

As we know, none of that is likely realistic because Luc’s fingerprints were all over the Kopitar contract from the get go, and any Visnovsky-style trade would have been vetoed by upper management.

Regardless of any of this, the data was there in the summer of 2016 to support moving on from Kopitar. It would have signaled an end of an era, and other veteran pieces could have been moved at the 2016 draft, including Carter. Move on from Lucic. Get a three year head start on our current rebuild. Maybe this spooks Doughty, and you’re forced to move him, too, and for an absolute haul. Doesn’t change our current predicament now - still facing down a rebuild, except still strapped by all these awful veteran contracts.

And I understand the Kings had a great regular season in 15/16. But the last two months of the season, playoffs included, said a lot about the character and motivation of this team. The writing was on the wall. If a huge section of the fanbase could see it, so too could management.

I don't believe that's true. On capfriendly, it says he had a NMC in 15-16. Probably the same thing Doughty got, that when he signed the new contract, they added a NMC to the last year of the deal he was just finishing up. Or Kopitar already had the NMC from the contract he signed in 2008. I forget, but either way, there was no freely trading Kopitar in the summer of 2016.

There was a window to trade Kopitar between June 2014 and the 2016 deadline. After the Cup, after his career worst offensive season up to that point, or when the team was in the top 10 leading the division with him as a UFA. Those were the 3 opportunities. Even if he didn't have a NMC in the summer of 2016, nobody is taking that full 8 year contract. Someone else would've signed him to a 7 year deal at $10m, but not give anything up in a trade for it. It would've just been some bad contracts coming back. Maybe they would've ended a couple years earlier.

 

[crassbonanza]

No worries. I just don't think of any Kings team in the 2000's setting any good, regular season records except for the winning streak in 2010. I also don't care as much about 102 points in the shootout era, but that is another discussion.

Regarding Kopitar and the other made men, I get it. You don't want to eff over these guys. Now, an argument could be made that he would get insane dollars wherever he was traded to, or on the open market, but I get where you are coming from.

Go to hockey-reference and look at the list of Kings seasons. It is pretty ugly. The blip on the screen is three years from 2012-'14. I understand rewarding these guys and not treating it like a business because this was so special.

Never again. The next Cup--if it ever happens--will be special but it won't be like the first two: especially the first. Has to be treated like a business moving forward, just like the player not giving a discount is treating it like a business: as they should.

Oh, yeah. I know how bad the Kings have been, which is why I understand and believe that attempting to capitalize while you have a top 5 center/defenseman is the appropriate decision. You never know when you are going to have that talent level again, so sacrificing a few years down the road to take some shots is the appropriate move.

 

[Sol]

You are proposing that the Kings screw over a player in bad faith. He signed a contract with the team that included clauses to protect his future, trading him just before the clause kicks in is making a deal in bad faith and is a dick move. It is even more of a dick move when he is one of the greatest players to ever play for your franchise and is a couple of seasons removed from leading the team to it's first stanley cups. Again, don't sign him if you don't want him on the team, but don't **** him over. Also, how did it put the team in a poor position? What did the Kings miss out on by him taking up 3 million in additional cap space? and how is it going to affect a proper rebuild? You know that cap space is meaningless in the midst of a rebuild right?

It's bad faith for a business to do what's best for itself?


I don't understand the logical case. You're making an emotional case. Something that is the downfall of most businesses.

The Kings are in the business of being a competitive team, not patting Kopitar's back.


DL made an emotional keeping Richards, guess what? He's still taking up cap space and sucked. I never liked the idea of Kopitar as a captain, and I still find it hard to tie down 10 million to a player who coasts. Idc how many points he has, any player who displays the amount of coasting as he does isn't a good role model for younger players joining the team.

 

[BigKing]

I don't believe that's true. On capfriendly, it says he had a NMC in 15-16. Probably the same thing Doughty got, that when he signed the new contract, they added a NMC to the last year of the deal he was just finishing up. Or Kopitar already had the NMC from the contract he signed in 2008. I forget, but either way, there was no freely trading Kopitar in the summer of 2016.

There was a window to trade Kopitar between June 2014 and the 2016 deadline. After the Cup, after his career worst offensive season up to that point, or when the team was in the top 10 leading the division with him as a UFA. Those were the 3 opportunities. Even if he didn't have a NMC in the summer of 2016, nobody is taking that full 8 year contract. Someone else would've signed him to a 7 year deal at $10m, but not give anything up in a trade for it. It would've just been some bad contracts coming back. Maybe they would've ended a couple years earlier.

Nobody is trading him unless it was Summer of '16-to-deadline-of-'16.

You still get a nice package for him in Summer '16 even if it is for only one season guaranteed prior to UFA.

 

[crassbonanza]

It's bad faith for a business to do what's best for itself?


I don't understand the logical case. You're making an emotional case. Something that is the downfall of most businesses.

The Kings are in the business of being a competitive team, not patting Kopitar's back.

It is bad faith to provide a NMC and then trade a player just before it kicks in. You are offering him an explicit guarantee that you will not be able to move him without his consent and deciding just prior to the clause kicking in to go back on your word. Business do not have to f*** over others for minor gains in roder to stay in business. In fact, I have seen just as many businesses in the real world be actively harmed due to this exact line of thinking. Just because you have the opportunity to screw over a supplier for a quick buck, doesn't mean it is the smartest line of thinking. It very likely will come back to bite you in the ass down the road.

 

[BigKing]

Oh, yeah. I know how bad the Kings have been, which is why I understand and believe that attempting to capitalize while you have a top 5 center/defenseman is the appropriate decision. You never know when you are going to have that talent level again, so sacrificing a few years down the road to take some shots is the appropriate move.

The issue for this team though is that Kopitar is a Top 5-10 C one year and then isn't the next. The other issue is that everything surrounding 11/8 isn't too hot.

That is the remnants of going for it while they had these guys in their prime. Now they are locked up with big money and term while not in their primes, meaning that the supporting cast needs to be great and promptly. Unfortunately, significant impact is most likely going to have to come from Blake's picks, meaning we are talking guys that are 20 at best, including a dude with a broken back.

But, honestly, nobody is trading either of these guys even if it was the smarter thing to do based on roster construction and the pipeline. Shit...the Isles just tried to sign Tavares and got zero for it.

 

[crassbonanza]

The issue for this team though is that Kopitar is a Top 5-10 C one year and then isn't the next. The other issue is that everything surrounding 11/8 isn't too hot.

That is the remnants of going for it while they had these guys in their prime. Now they are locked up with big money and term while not in their primes, meaning that the supporting cast needs to be great and promptly. Unfortunately, significant impact is most likely going to have to come from Blake's picks, meaning we are talking guys that are 20 at best, including a dude with a broken back.

But, honestly, nobody is trading either of these guys even if it was the smarter thing to do based on roster construction and the pipeline. ****...the Isles just tried to sign Tavares and got zero for it.

If I told you before 2012 that the Kings would win 2 Stanley Cups and have 3 straight deep playoff runs, but would be worst in the league in 2019 due to the core of those championships declining, would you take that? This is the result of the risks taken to win those cups. Some of the moves worked out, most didn't towards the end, but in a league driven on parity most teams are only a few seasons away from being in the basement. I'd rather a slightly longer time in the basement anyways. Might as well go for broke.