Rumor: KINGS 2018-19 Season- Luc/Rob ****Show/ Sell Everyone!! Part 3

[redcard]

Can I trade that for all I can eat ice girls?

I think the Patriots have been researching how to sell a similar ticket package.

 

[tomd]

For those keeping track, Hoven the Hack was spectacularly wrong about what LA would do at the TDL. This guy has the connections of a faulty battery...on par with Eklund.

 

[BigKing]

I think the Patriots have been researching how to sell a similar ticket package.

Always doing what it takes to stay on top.

 

[BigKing]

For those keeping track, Hoven the Hack was spectacularly wrong about what LA would do at the TDL. This guy has the connections of a faulty battery...on par with Eklund.

It's okay. It isn't his fault if the trades fall through.

 

[Piston]

He's so brutal. I watched all of the TBL game and even went back and watched his shifts - looking for ONE SINGLE GOOD THING - GOOD PLAY...and the only thing was he was pretty good on faceoffs...his game has zero passion, zero urgency, lost his top speed, does not make ANY GOOD PLAYS. And rarely gets a good shot off. He no longer can play effective NHL hockey. Don't hate the guy. He was awesome for 6+ years and did well...he had a few bad injuries and is 34 and no longer should be an NHL second line center. He's not effective on PK or PP. His veteran savvy and experience - he knows the game and where to be. But he can no longer execute. I bet ANY scout that scouted him the last few months sees all of this. It's all true and not a mere observation. Phaneuf sucks too, but actually still makes a few good plays. Carter makes zero. I still have last nights game recorded. If anyone does and wants to point out a single good play, let me know and I will review.

I noticed the same thing. Meanwhile, Wagner who gives a crap and produces played less than 10 minutes and still managed to score. I don't think Blake's message has gotten through the the coach. Kopitar is not as effective when playing 20+ minutes a night, Carter is done. Toffoli looked lazy. Why are the minutes not being distributed accordingly?

 

[tomd]

It's okay. It isn't his fault if the trades fall through.

Is there any evidence that trades fell through? It's one thing for a fan to get things wrong but Hoven actually has a following based upon his alleged insider info. He is clearly misrepresenting himself at the expense of gullible fans. I can't imagine anyone being ok with that.

 

[YP44]

Is there any evidence that trades fell through? It's one thing for a fan to get things wrong but Hoven actually has a following based upon his alleged insider info. He is clearly misrepresenting himself at the expense of gullible fans. I can't imagine anyone being ok with that.

I like him for some of his prospect intell. Not the be all end all (as with anyone's opinion) but just another place to go to .

 

[Choralone]

Wow, talk about picking with the wrong guy. I've defended these guys more than just about anyone here and have taken stones left and right for it. I'm not ****ting on their abilities. I'm talking about their raw leadership (publicly, of course). I even agree with Drew's assessment that he's been pretty good (needs to be much, much better though), but to take the question and twist it into a self-defense? Give me a break. These guys are the core leadership and Kopitar losing the map and Doughty being out for himself are exactly what you don't want to see at this point in the season and this is coming from someone who believes in their ability to be themselves next season so maybe take that with some weight instead of lumping me in with the "it's always raining" group.

RJ, I apologize for putting you on blast because I like your posts and respect your views, and you come across as an amiable guy. I didn't parse that the bolded was about their leadership ability only (and on rereading, I still don't parse that, but I'll take your say-so). It just encapsulated for me what seems to be this sort of new consensus on those players and their legacy which (in combination with probably high blood sugar) got me kind of aggro'd. I intended to added something to the effect of how it wasn't really aimed at you specifically but at this emergent narrative on here, but I got lazy because it was 1:00 am and I was on my phone when I normally use my computer to post.

For everyone else, I'm on board with a rebuild. I'm on board for trading players for picks. I'm ok with giving clear-eyed evaluations of players based on how they play now, versus how they were in their glory. I'm not here to read hagiographies on King's players - I just bristle when I think we're impugning the character of guys who did all we could ever want of them not so long ago.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

RJ, I apologize for putting you on blast because I like your posts and respect your views, and you come across as an amiable guy. I didn't parse that the bolded was about their leadership ability only (and on rereading, I still don't parse that, but I'll take your say-so). It just encapsulated for me what seems to be this sort of new consensus on those players and their legacy which (in combination with probably high blood sugar) got me kind of aggro'd. I intended to added something to the effect of how it wasn't really aimed at you specifically but at this emergent narrative on here, but I got lazy because it was 1:00 am and I was on my phone when I normally use my computer to post.

For everyone else, I'm on board with a rebuild. I'm on board for trading players for picks. I'm ok with giving clear-eyed evaluations of players based on how they play now, versus how they were in their glory. I'm not here to read hagiographies on King's players - I just bristle when I think we're impugning the character of guys who did all we could ever want of them not so long ago.

I can see why it wasn't really clear, and I understand why my post more than anything else, and I agree re: the general narrative. I think the gist of what I'm saying is that for a long time there have been questions--fair or unfair--about the leadership of Kopitar and Doughty specifically and their previous need for insulation with a leadership 'group' including guys like Wlliams, Mitchell, et. al.--and the beef I have now is that based on how they're reacting to some of these questions they're taking a step towards fulfilling those narratives. As far as who they are/were whatever, it's not about their play to me, I believe ina bounceback, I believe they care even if it's not showing this season, and I have to believe they'll come back harder next year. But those quotes seriously triggered the shit out of me. And I guess to be clear I mean less about 'heart' and more about 'leadership' even if that's splitting hairs.

 

[BigKing]

Is there any evidence that trades fell through? It's one thing for a fan to get things wrong but Hoven actually has a following based upon his alleged insider info. He is clearly misrepresenting himself at the expense of gullible fans. I can't imagine anyone being ok with that.

I was just repeating what Hoven's biggest fan said last week.

 

[KINGS17]

Is there any evidence that trades fell through? It's one thing for a fan to get things wrong but Hoven actually has a following based upon his alleged insider info. He is clearly misrepresenting himself at the expense of gullible fans. I can't imagine anyone being ok with that.

Hoven is really good at telling everyone which teams have scouts at the Ontario Reign games. After that, meh.

 

[Choralone]

I can see why it wasn't really clear, and I understand why my post more than anything else, and I agree re: the general narrative. I think the gist of what I'm saying is that for a long time there have been questions--fair or unfair--about the leadership of Kopitar and Doughty specifically and their previous need for insulation with a leadership 'group' including guys like Wlliams, Mitchell, et. al.--and the beef I have now is that based on how they're reacting to some of these questions they're taking a step towards fulfilling those narratives. As far as who they are/were whatever, it's not about their play to me, I believe ina bounceback, I believe they care even if it's not showing this season, and I have to believe they'll come back harder next year. But those quotes seriously triggered the **** out of me. And I guess to be clear I mean less about 'heart' and more about 'leadership' even if that's splitting hairs.

Yeah, the bit I bolded from that previous post unfortunately was a trigger for me...

I don't think heart vs leadership is splitting hairs - I think it's an important distinction. I used to believe leaders were made, not born - but it takes a conscious, continuous, lifelong effort for someone to turn themselves into a leader who doesn't have that makeup from the get-go. Heart is about intention. Leadership is about effectiveness. I think its disingenuous to question their intentions, but fair game to criticize their effectiveness.

 

[kilowatt]

I can see why it wasn't really clear, and I understand why my post more than anything else, and I agree re: the general narrative. I think the gist of what I'm saying is that for a long time there have been questions--fair or unfair--about the leadership of Kopitar and Doughty specifically and their previous need for insulation with a leadership 'group' including guys like Wlliams, Mitchell, et. al.--and the beef I have now is that based on how they're reacting to some of these questions they're taking a step towards fulfilling those narratives. As far as who they are/were whatever, it's not about their play to me, I believe ina bounceback, I believe they care even if it's not showing this season, and I have to believe they'll come back harder next year. But those quotes seriously triggered the **** out of me. And I guess to be clear I mean less about 'heart' and more about 'leadership' even if that's splitting hairs.

I think the real issues started with the Kings when Brown lost the C, and I don’t think the team has ever really recovered. I think it shook the leadership group and it is a shame. We definitely had a vocal leadership group in the past and Kopitar never struck me as that kind of player. He’s obviously a leader on the ice and more often than not, he drives the play on the ice. But I don’t think your captain necessarily needs to be your best player.

 

[Sol]

It's okay. It isn't his fault if the trades fall through.

LOL

The big problem with Hoven is the surety in his claims. Not the fact that they don't happen

 

[DoktorJeep]

When the Kings won their cups and were dominating the league, 2012 - 2014, the Kings best players were all in the prime performance ages of their careers, 24 - 27 yo IMO.

Kopitar 24 - 26 yo
Brown 27 - 30 yo
Quick 26 - 28 yo
Doughty 22 - 24 yo

Here we sit, 5 years after that window started, and we have management still peddling hope to the fans that these guys are somehow still capable of carrying this team well into their 30s.

Some fans will make excuses for this seasons performance by the whole team by pointing to intangibles and saying they couldn’t be predicted. But it’s the epitome of wishful thinking to look at that core, their ages + miles, and expect a cup contender worthy performance when filling out the roster with what the Kings have.

Brown and Kopitar can’t be the best option 20+ minutes ice time guys in 2019. Quick shouldn’t be penciled in for 60+ starts. And Doughty hasn’t shown he is a great PP scorer, so it wouldn’t hurt to give his PP time to a guy like Martinez and let Doughty take more PK shifts.

These guys are Kings legends and every real fan wants each of them to retire with this team at a time of their choosing. But that doesn’t mean they are first line players for life, in spite of the rhetoric from management.

And every real fan who has been around for awhile has learned to not trust Kings management out of hand. Even the best GM, DL, eventually made too many bad decisions and clung too stubbornly to an expired vision / identity, to the point you had legitimate cause to fire him, despite his massive success within the context of a historically mediocre to pathetic NHL franchise.

I love to speculate about how I’d turn over the roster on here, and feel free to throw out some half baked thoughts. But I don’t expect Blake to suddenly turnover the roster like its video game fantasy time on HF Boards because of all the real world constraints built into the current roster construction.

I do expect him to come up with a plan for the teams identity and roster ASAP. I’m worried it’ll be lip service about getting younger and more skilled in order to help the current, aging core instead of a plan to assemble a new core.

 

[AlphaBravo]

There has been much discussion on this board regarding what the Kings' identity is in the post-2014 era. I think we are beginning to see it from our bottom 6 forwards, whether it is intentional or not by Blake. Guys like Wagner, Kempe, Iafallo, and perhaps Luff (although he had limited games) are playing an aggressive forecheck, puck hound, and rapid transition game that is translating well in games. When our bottom 6 is on the ice the momentum seems to change in the game.

Unfortunately, our veteran top 6 forwards cannot carry the momentum built by our bottom 6. I think Kopitar will be able to play this style as well if motivated. When he is on his game, he is one of the best at aggressive forecheck/puck hound style. I think Brown can play this style as well.

Players like Carter/Kovy do not seem to fit within the mold. Toffoli is good on the halfwall, but he is not very aggressive on the forecheck though.

I can't wait to see Luff and Gundstrom to get a call up. They seem to play this style, and it will be a good experiment to see how the team fairs in games when everyone is buying into this system. We still need high skill players, but we will need to address that through the draft and perhaps free agency.

 

[Piston]

LOL

The big problem with Hoven is the surety in his claims. Not the fact that they don't happen

Who cares? His site is entertaining (for some), he obviously has some contacts in the organization who share tidbits with him, particularly on how the club views the prospects, and he occasionally comes across a rumor in these discussions. Most often, people like Hoven are used to float a trail balloon. In other words, Blake is not going to pick up the phone an let other GMs know Carter is available, this only drives down the value. On the other hand, if Eklund or Hoven report it on their site, the word is out, and Blake has total deniability both to a GM he may be negotiating with, and with Carter who would be unhappy his name is being bandied about. Holding Hoven to a higher standard seems ridiculous to me because no GM worth his wallet is ever going to share how he is thinking with anyone else, see Billy Beane in 'Moneyball'.

 

[Piston]

There has been much discussion on this board regarding what the Kings' identity is in the post-2014 era. I think we are beginning to see it from our bottom 6 forwards, whether it is intentional or not by Blake. Guys like Wagner, Kempe, Iafallo, and perhaps Luff (although he had limited games) are playing an aggressive forecheck, puck hound, and rapid transition game that is translating well in games. When our bottom 6 is on the ice the momentum seems to change in the game.

Unfortunately, our veteran top 6 forwards cannot carry the momentum built by our bottom 6. I think Kopitar will be able to play this style as well if motivated. When he is on his game, he is one of the best at aggressive forecheck/puck hound style. I think Brown can play this style as well.

Players like Carter/Kovy do not seem to fit within the mold. Toffoli is good on the halfwall, but he is not very aggressive on the forecheck though.

I can't wait to see Luff and Gundstrom to get a call up. They seem to play this style, and it will be a good experiment to see how the team fairs in games when everyone is buying into this system. We still need high skill players, but we will need to address that through the draft and perhaps free agency.

This is an excellent post and spot on. Wagner has outplayed most of our veteran core for at least a month and still gets less than 10 minutes of ice time a game. WD probably is uncomfortable playing the style you articulate. We need to move on from him and Strothers before the end of the season. They represent the old way of doing things which clearly does not work.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

Does anyone else have a problem with Carter threatening to retire if he is traded? That really puts LA in a bind and his play has not been up to par. My thought is to trade him anyway over the summer for conditional picks and slot someone to get experience. Otherwise, he's just taking up space. For example, if he plays through 2020, then LA fetches a 2nd round pick that summer or whatever the return is. I think the return should be higher but just citing an example.

 

[Bandit]

Does anyone else have a problem with Carter threatening to retire if he is traded? That really puts LA in a bind and his play has not been up to par. My thought is to trade him anyway over the summer for conditional picks and slot someone to get experience. Otherwise, he's just taking up space. For example, if he plays through 2020, then LA fetches a 2nd round pick that summer or whatever the return is. I think the return should be higher but just citing an example.

No, because I still haven't seen any actual evidence that he or has agent have done so. If anything real actually did surface, yeah it would piss me off.

 

[BigKing]

There has been much discussion on this board regarding what the Kings' identity is in the post-2014 era. I think we are beginning to see it from our bottom 6 forwards, whether it is intentional or not by Blake. Guys like Wagner, Kempe, Iafallo, and perhaps Luff (although he had limited games) are playing an aggressive forecheck, puck hound, and rapid transition game that is translating well in games. When our bottom 6 is on the ice the momentum seems to change in the game.

Unfortunately, our veteran top 6 forwards cannot carry the momentum built by our bottom 6. I think Kopitar will be able to play this style as well if motivated. When he is on his game, he is one of the best at aggressive forecheck/puck hound style. I think Brown can play this style as well.

Players like Carter/Kovy do not seem to fit within the mold. Toffoli is good on the halfwall, but he is not very aggressive on the forecheck though.

I can't wait to see Luff and Gundstrom to get a call up. They seem to play this style, and it will be a good experiment to see how the team fairs in games when everyone is buying into this system. We still need high skill players, but we will need to address that through the draft and perhaps free agency.

Bolded being Lombardi picks or signings except for Iafallo who was being scouted hard during Lombardi's final year.

There is a belief that Lombardi was just enamored with size and didn't care about speed, but that isn't entirely true. I remember a Ducks GDT against the Kings back when the Kings were good and there were comments like "How are they so big and fast?".

You don't grind teams into dust with a gnarly forecheck just by being big. True, Lombardi seemed to shy away from speed without size but he valued motor, determination and character over simply size. Case in point trading up to nab Wagner in 2015.

Blake drafted Vilardi with his first ever pick. Total DL guy. JAD oozes character and is from the WHL. Total DL guy. We may have seen more of a shift for Blake by taking Kupari last year but Grundstrom seems to be a total DL guy as well. That's why I'm pretty happy if Grundstrom turns in to "only" a hard-working, real good 3rd liner because you win with those type of guys.

DL couldn't draft an impact forward to save his life though, for the most part. That's where worrying so much about the aforementioned traits over pure skill has really hurt. I'm not worried too much about Blake's ability to put together a good Bottom 6: he needs to reverse course on the lack of both impact forwards and impact defenseman developed by the Kings since Toffoli.

 

[damacles1156]

Bolded being Lombardi picks or signings except for Iafallo who was being scouted hard during Lombardi's final year.

There is a belief that Lombardi was just enamored with size and didn't care about speed, but that isn't entirely true. I remember a Ducks GDT against the Kings back when the Kings were good and there were comments like "How are they so big and fast?".

You don't grind teams into dust with a gnarly forecheck just by being big. True, Lombardi seemed to shy away from speed without size but he valued motor, determination and character over simply size. Case in point trading up to nab Wagner in 2015.

Blake drafted Vilardi with his first ever pick. Total DL guy. JAD oozes character and is from the WHL. Total DL guy. We may have seen more of a shift for Blake by taking Kupari last year but Grundstrom seems to be a total DL guy as well. That's why I'm pretty happy if Grundstrom turns in to "only" a hard-working, real good 3rd liner because you win with those type of guys.

DL couldn't draft an impact forward to save his life though, for the most part. That's where worrying so much about the aforementioned traits over pure skill has really hurt. I'm not worried too much about Blake's ability to put together a good Bottom 6: he needs to reverse course on the lack of both impact forwards and impact defenseman developed by the Kings since Toffoli.

Futa plays a big role in drafting, always has since 2010.

Speed is always wanted by just about all NHL teams since the game was invented. Speed/skill is not some recipe teams just discovered.

The Kings teams of 2012-2014 were not slow..I have no idea why people continue to parrot that garbage.

I agree with the points you make about types of players the Kings targeted.

 

[Herby]

If you look at the Kings age and contract situation after 2014, it's not surprising at all that in 2019 that the team is this terrible, what is frustrating is they were so bad in 2015, 2016 and 2017.

Just a perfect storm of so many players collapsing and historically bad drafting.

 

[Kingsfan1]

Does anyone else have a problem with Carter threatening to retire if he is traded? That really puts LA in a bind and his play has not been up to par. My thought is to trade him anyway over the summer for conditional picks and slot someone to get experience. Otherwise, he's just taking up space. For example, if he plays through 2020, then LA fetches a 2nd round pick that summer or whatever the return is. I think the return should be higher but just citing an example.

I really don’t think Carter is a problem. Sure he looks slow and terrible this year but so does the entire team. He’s on a great contract and if Pavelski can perform at a high level at his age I don’t see why Carter cannot . His injury impacted him he will get used to it and I think Carter as a 3C like Stoll was will do wonders for this team. He isn’t the problem . It’s Iaffalo being a bottom 6er on the top line. It’s Toffoli never progressing , it’s Quick being a clown. It’s the coaching ... definitely not Carter

 

[Steve Zissou]

I really don’t think Carter is a problem. Sure he looks slow and terrible this year but so does the entire team. He’s on a great contract and if Pavelski can perform at a high level at his age I don’t see why Carter cannot . His injury impacted him he will get used to it and I think Carter as a 3C like Stoll was will do wonders for this team. He isn’t the problem . It’s Iaffalo being a bottom 6er on the top line. It’s Toffoli never progressing , it’s Quick being a clown. It’s the coaching ... definitely not Carter

While no player (besides the players that were traded - Fantenberg and Muzzin) have played well this season, Carter hasn't done anything right. He's super slow, forgot how to shoot, his passing and playmaking ability went bye bye, and his compete level is down a couple of pegs; It's quite apparent that couple with his crappy play his leadership role on the team has been completely non-existent, something the Kings are sorely lacking to help bring in the youth.

I'm sorry, but if you feel Carter isn't one of the biggest problems on the team this year, you're out to lunch.