KHL Expansion Part VIII

[Albatros]

Medveščak used to have a player from Las Vegas, of course it's not a hockey town but I can't think of literally anyone anywhere from Dubai or any other emirate.

 

[hansomreiste]

i personally would not like team from dubai in KHL, as generally i am not very positive about that region
BUT,
what about NHL? they also have team(s) from regions with no traditional hockey like florida (although in recent years they got a quiet good youth development), or what about las vegas just now?
many NHL teams dont have local guys playing and probably never will..
so IF a team from dubai would join KHL there is actually no difference to a team from las vegas at NHL

USA is a single country. States differ but in the end the difference is not that stark. You don't have Sharia laws in one state and modern laws in the next one. Some teams might not have local players but when Vegas play, people from Vegas and neighbouring regions cheer for them. Hockey is decently popular in the US wherever you go. UAE and Russia are two completely different worlds. Nobody in the UAE cares about hockey nor do they play it. NHL took hockey to Vegas because people in Vegas made it possible. You know, they sell tickets beforehand and people buy over 13,000 season tickets for a team that will just start playing in two to three years. Good luck trying the same in UAE or China. If you took 100 school kids to a hockey game in those countries for free, 90 of them would probably get bored and ask for something else or even want to go back to class... Anyone claiming otherwise is free to show me how much those people adore hockey, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

I'm not completely against non-traditional countries but UAE sounds too absurd. I wouldn't complain about an all-Russian league or some expansion towards Asia (from Uzbekistan to Japan) since it could end up being something decent, albeit in a long time. Yet UAE would seal the deal for me and turn KHL into a total bush league. A hockey team from Dubai has no place in "one of the best hockey leagues" in the world until it proves itself in another arena.

 

[geri]

The NHL has current players who were born in Florida and in Arizona (and Auston Matthews grew up in Arizona) - does the KHL have current players who were born/raised in Dubai?

And Las Vegas didn't just get a hockey team when the NHL came to town; hockey has been played there for decades Team History at Hockeydb.com - have they been playing hockey in Dubai for decades?

that was just an example, and of course you must compare it at the time when a club from florida joined first time a few decades ago...

and sure i share the opionion. dubai for hockey is not a good idea

 

[Nino33]

that was just an example, and of course you must compare it at the time when a club from florida joined first time a few decades ago...

The Panthers joined the NHL in 1992
Here's hockey in Florida 28 years earlier Jacksonville Rockets - Wikipedia
and a couple other teams pro played for a bit in Florida in the 70s

Any hockey teams in Dubai decades ago?

i dont care about you haters anymore..

What you seem to not care about is facts/reality (you seem to care most about maintaining the persecution complex)

 

[Albatros]

Any hockey teams in Dubai decades ago?

In the early 1990s I believe, or at least other emirates started having teams around that time.

 

[Nino33]

In the early 1990s I believe, or at least other emirates started having teams around that time.

Jacksonville was playing a 72 game schedule of professional hockey in 1964 1964-65 Eastern Hockey League [EHL] standings at hockeydb.com

Is there an actual Dubai League? Or an Emirates League? Any history of hockey at all in the area?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

i personally would not like team from dubai in KHL, as generally i am not very positive about that region
BUT,
what about NHL? they also have team(s) from regions with no traditional hockey like florida (although in recent years they got a quiet good youth development), or what about las vegas just now?
many NHL teams dont have local guys playing and probably never will..
so IF a team from dubai would join KHL there is actually no difference to a team from las vegas at NHL

Yeah, never will happen. Vegas happened because they sold out season tickets in minutes. There’s a waiting list for businesses to advertise. It fits the geographic footprint and hockey is slowly getting more popular.

UAE on the other hand would have a minimum 15 hour flight for their nearest away game, play in front of no fans, and lose tens of millions of dollars annually. No one would watch it on TV, horrible idea.

Hockey works in the non-traditional markets because it’s America. And when the team does well, they make money from the attention, more ticket sales, eyes on TVs, etc. They’re still in America, they’re not traveling across the globe each game. The NFL, who has 16 games total, still hasn’t left North America. You think the NHL, with 82 game schedule will? Get real.

 

[Albatros]

Jacksonville was playing a 72 game schedule of professional hockey in 1964 1964-65 Eastern Hockey League [EHL] standings at hockeydb.com

Is there an actual Dubai League? Or an Emirates League? Any history of hockey at all in the area?

They have a league, best players are expats but there are some locals as well. As I've understood the promotion with access to some professional structures started in the early 2000s when Al-Wahda Football Club started its own hockey teams in a few different emirates:

Championnat des Émirats Arabes Unis de hockey sur glace 2001/02

The level is way too modest for a league like the KHL, but it would be wrong to say that there's no hockey culture of any sort in the UAE. Especially I do respect that they run a women's national team:

 

[Nino33]

They have a league, best players are expats but there are some locals as well. As I've understood the promotion with access to some professional structures started in the early 2000s when Al-Wahda Football Club started its own hockey teams in a few different emirates:

Championnat des Émirats Arabes Unis de hockey sur glace 2001/02

Cool

Does it still exist?

The level is way too modest for a league like the KHL, but it would be wrong to say that there's no hockey culture of any sort in the UAE.

For reference the league I linked to had future NHL players playing in it at the time

 

[Albatros]

Actually I didn't know this before but apparently the women's team even did a ceremonial puck drop in the NHL:

It looks like the men's league has five teams at the moment, Abu Dhabi Storms won all of their games last season and has mostly domestic players - albeit the six (Croatian and Belarusian) foreigners are essentially the stars of the team and have some KHL experience:

UAE - Emirates Hockey League - on Pointstreak Sports Technologies

The second best team the Mighty Camels from Dubai are all expats, a couple of Arabic names but also they're Canadians it seems. Patrik Valčák played in the Finnish league previously.

Of the remaining three teams one consists mostly of locals and two mostly of expats, but the standard is clearly lower. The Vipers/White Bears fusion team does have a few guys with KHL experience though so it's decidedly above beer league level still.

 

[vorky]

Nothing stops you from speculating about this mysterious European expansion over unconfirmed reports. Why is it a problem when I speak about something that made it to the news? I never said it is going to happen. I'm just saying that I don't like the idea of happening. Moreover, you claim people will be interested in co-operation and KHL will listen them. So what? I'm saying I don't like the idea of cooperating with UAE because it will bring nothing to the hockey scene.

Perhaps it is not important for you, but there is nuance. Chernyshenko has said many times about European expansion, he has even said what countries are the most interested in/active in negotiations. So, it is just a matter of time and negotiations & other conditions.

On the other hand, some media reported the Middle East and people take it as the reality and expecting a team from that region tomorrow. And as you need to know, Chernyshenko made a statement on the Middle East recently, and he, surprisingly for some porters, said he knows nothing about it.

You need to follow the trend, the process. And then make some statement. I do believe you follow the process, all statements of the league´s leadership. And I am happy for you, as you are doing a good job.

You should avoid accusations. All I want is the correct, fact-funded, professional analysis. I do not really care what could happen if something happened, of course, if it happens. Let us start the professional- based analysis of the situation. I know, it requires people to follow all statements, all documents of the league. Yes, not everybody has a will to do so. And there are also people (do not worry, NOT YOU) who do not care about the league, their role is to criticise the league in any case.

 

[mkev400]

This is the kind of expansion that I would not like to see, completely artificial, where will the Emirati players come from? It'd just be a team named Dubai full of Canadians. Finns and Russians

As opposed to a team full of Canadians, Americans, Finns and a few Russians based in China?

In the early 1990s I believe, or at least other emirates started having teams around that time.

Yeah, I do recall that Adler Mannheim played an exhibition game against a national team from one of the Emirates and it was something like 56-0 or so... Given the conditions in Dubai, such as hot weather, which makes good ice difficult, and the fact that it really is just a playground for the rich and filthy rich, I doubt that the development over the past 30 Years has been all that substantial. Though I would like to see what the outcome would be in a game between the Dubai/Emirti national team and the Indian national team that is formed of the Himalayan Indians who play hockey as their main sport (I saw a documentary about it a couple years ago)...

[...]
On the other hand, some media reported the Middle East and people take it as the reality and expecting a team from that region tomorrow. And as you need to know, Chernyshenko made a statement on the Middle East recently, and he, surprisingly for some porters, said he knows nothing about it.

You need to follow the trend, the process. And then make some statement. I do believe you follow the process, all statements of the league´s leadership. And I am happy for you, as you are doing a good job. [...]

To be fair, no one took the reports as certainty here. Most people have said they wouldn't be a fan of an expansion to the emirates. Given the China expansion, and the KHL's interest in attracting international partners (which you have stated numerous times with the SAP example), it wouldn't be the most outrageous development if the KHL were to announce an expansion in the gulf region.
As for the fact that Chernyshenko supposedly (I cant read cyrillic, russian, and admittedly, i didnt spend a second looking for his statement) said that he doesn't know anything about reports regarding the middle east, weren't you repeatedly claiming that the KHL now does its expansion discussions with european teams in secrecy because of scrutiny from the Federations? Why wouldn't they employ that strategy until they have anything concrete for any potential expansion around the world?

 

[vorky]

To be fair, no one took the reports as certainty here. Most people have said they wouldn't be a fan of an expansion to the emirates. Given the China expansion, and the KHL's interest in attracting international partners (which you have stated numerous times with the SAP example), it wouldn't be the most outrageous development if the KHL were to announce an expansion in the gulf region.
As for the fact that Chernyshenko supposedly (I cant read cyrillic, russian, and admittedly, i didnt spend a second looking for his statement) said that he doesn't know anything about reports regarding the middle east, weren't you repeatedly claiming that the KHL now does its expansion discussions with european teams in secrecy because of scrutiny from the Federations? Why wouldn't they employ that strategy until they have anything concrete for any potential expansion around the world?

I believe you understand the difference between expansion to Europe and around the world. The KHL does not make secrets with Asian expansion.

As of now, I have not read Chernyshenko´ statement on expansion to the Middle East.

Try to find out who is behind this Middle East report. And why it was published. A bigger picture of the story will be made immediately.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

UAE on the other hand would have a minimum 15 hour flight for their nearest away game, play in front of no fans, and lose tens of millions of dollars annually. No one would watch it on TV, horrible idea.

Moscow to Dubai is a 5:25 flight time, about the same as Boston to Los Angeles.

It might not be as popular as camel racing, but they’ll get people to show up.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Moscow to Dubai is a 5:25 flight time, about the same as Boston to Los Angeles.

It might not be as popular as camel racing, but they’ll get people to show up.

Boston and LA play each other twice per year, home and away. That is it. UAE team would do it every single game.

And the KHL can’t even sell out and do okay financially where hockey is popular. You’re telling me that they’ll do it in the middle of the desert? Not a reasonable assertion.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Boston and LA play each other twice per year, home and away. That is it. UAE team would do it every single game.

And the KHL can’t even sell out and do okay financially where hockey is popular. You’re telling me that they’ll do it in the middle of the desert? Not a reasonable assertion.

That’s what they said about Los Angeles. And Phoenix
And Tampa
And Florida
And Dallas
And San Jose

Why would Dubai play every game on the road? You’ve never heard of the concept of a road trip, something every KHL team does?

 

[hansomreiste]

That’s what they said about Los Angeles. And Phoenix
And Tampa
And Florida
And Dallas
And San Jose

Why would Dubai play every game on the road? You’ve never heard of the concept of a road trip, something every KHL team does?

Eh do you still compare parts of the US to a completely different country in the Middle East? All those places you name are heavily populated by Americans themselves. Be it San Jose, Tampa or Phoenix, it is American culture and American people for the most part. Moreover, almost all of those locations are well-developed with a lot of people from different backgrounds which increases the chance of finding enough fans to support a hockey team. UAE is literally an irrelevant desert country in desert with no organic ties to Russia or KHL. If this was a team from Checnya, we could say it might work - in the end, it is still Russia and you can find some guys interested in hockey. UAE? Just completely different.

I can't believe you guys actually need an explanation about why NHL in Arizona is not similar to KHL in UAE.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

It’s the same load of baloney we got fed for the last 50 years. Provincialism is a local problem that happens everywhere.

They have TV in the UAE, that have sports channels that even show hockey. I know, because I got to watch UAE destroy Kuwait 13-1 on one of those channels.

Zagreb didn’t fail because the budgets were too big or it wasn’t a hockey town, they failed because Agrokor went bust.

If Dubai has deep pockets backing them(and Dubai being Dubai I would think so) they’ll be fine for 20 years and can build their own development system in that time.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

That’s what they said about Los Angeles. And Phoenix
And Tampa
And Florida
And Dallas
And San Jose

Why would Dubai play every game on the road? You’ve never heard of the concept of a road trip, something every KHL team does?

You’re actually being serious? All those teams, except for Florida and Phoenix, are making money, or come close to breaking even, and aren’t being bankrolled like every single KHL team.

Pretty certain all those teams, except for Florida and Phoenix, all had and have solid business plans. They all proved to the league they could support the team. Heck, Dallas actively courted the North Stars and were a hot market. Pretty sure no one reputable ever said LA wouldn’t do well. Pretty sure they’ve been one of the most financially successful teams in NHL history. Tampa is a model NHL franchise and have been since they stopped being a front for Yakuza.

And every nearly every away game in the KHL is a far rod trip. Except for some of the closer cities, you’re adding many hours to the flights. Vladivostok tries to do that and it doesn’t work out as well as it is supposed to on paper.

And for Phoenix, look up the Phoenix whiteout for when they immediately moved from Winnipeg. Look up the rats in Florida. When the teams are not out of playoffs by November, the team gets good support in an arena larger than any in KHL.

None of your post has any validity.

It’s the same load of baloney we got fed for the last 50 years. Provincialism is a local problem that happens everywhere.

They have TV in the UAE, that have sports channels that even show hockey. I know, because I got to watch UAE destroy Kuwait 13-1 on one of those channels.

Zagreb didn’t fail because the budgets were too big or it wasn’t a hockey town, they failed because Agrokor went bust.

If Dubai has deep pockets backing them(and Dubai being Dubai I would think so) they’ll be fine for 20 years and can build their own development system in that time.

That “20 years and they’ll be fine when they build their own development system” is a horrible argument. Kunlun isn’t looking like they’ll be able to do it, and we can all tell that from a few years in. They can’t even figure out what city and arena to play in. Their first game had people numbering in the hundreds, in a country of over a billion people they can’t get any support. Horrifically flawed argument.

And if you haven’t visited Phoenix or Florida, they are predominantly white. There may be Spanish minorities but they are white. They may be on the beach and in the desert, but they are white. Getting them to like hockey isn’t that big of a challenge. The UAE is entirely Arabic and Islamic. If you don’t know the difference and its importance, HFBoards is not the place for you.

 

[Rigafan]

As opposed to a team full of Canadians, Americans, Finns and a few Russians based in China?



Yeah, I do recall that Adler Mannheim played an exhibition game against a national team from one of the Emirates and it was something like 56-0 or so... Given the conditions in Dubai, such as hot weather, which makes good ice difficult, and the fact that it really is just a playground for the rich and filthy rich, I doubt that the development over the past 30 Years has been all that substantial. Though I would like to see what the outcome would be in a game between the Dubai/Emirti national team and the Indian national team that is formed of the Himalayan Indians who play hockey as their main sport (I saw a documentary about it a couple years ago)...



To be fair, no one took the reports as certainty here. Most people have said they wouldn't be a fan of an expansion to the emirates. Given the China expansion, and the KHL's interest in attracting international partners (which you have stated numerous times with the SAP example), it wouldn't be the most outrageous development if the KHL were to announce an expansion in the gulf region.
As for the fact that Chernyshenko supposedly (I cant read cyrillic, russian, and admittedly, i didnt spend a second looking for his statement) said that he doesn't know anything about reports regarding the middle east, weren't you repeatedly claiming that the KHL now does its expansion discussions with european teams in secrecy because of scrutiny from the Federations? Why wouldn't they employ that strategy until they have anything concrete for any potential expansion around the world?

I'm not exactly thrilled about Kunlun expansion but at least there are some actual Chinese or Chinese heritage hockey players available for them... and they have their MHL team VHL team and also Jilin City in the VHL (Currently full of Russians but its a start.. right?)

UAE Team would be a pure vanity project wouldn't it. You can't 'help grow' the game by just having 1 single team in the second most expensive league in the world, they'd need all the grassroots stuff first and many years development. But we know money talks

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

You’re actually being serious? All those teams, except for Florida and Phoenix, are making money, or come close to breaking even, and aren’t being bankrolled like every single KHL team.

Pretty certain all those teams, except for Florida and Phoenix, all had and have solid business plans. They all proved to the league they could support the team. Heck, Dallas actively courted the North Stars and were a hot market. Pretty sure no one reputable ever said LA wouldn’t do well. Pretty sure they’ve been one of the most financially successful teams in NHL history. Tampa is a model NHL franchise and have been since they stopped being a front for Yakuza.

And every nearly every away game in the KHL is a far rod trip. Except for some of the closer cities, you’re adding many hours to the flights. Vladivostok tries to do that and it doesn’t work out as well as it is supposed to on paper.

And for Phoenix, look up the Phoenix whiteout for when they immediately moved from Winnipeg. Look up the rats in Florida. When the teams are not out of playoffs by November, the team gets good support in an arena larger than any in KHL.

None of your post has any validity.



That “20 years and they’ll be fine when they build their own development system” is a horrible argument. Kunlun isn’t looking like they’ll be able to do it, and we can all tell that from a few years in. They can’t even figure out what city and arena to play in. Their first game had people numbering in the hundreds, in a country of over a billion people they can’t get any support. Horrifically flawed argument.

And if you haven’t visited Phoenix or Florida, they are predominantly white. There may be Spanish minorities but they are white. They may be on the beach and in the desert, but they are white. Getting them to like hockey isn’t that big of a challenge. The UAE is entirely Arabic and Islamic. If you don’t know the difference and its importance, HFBoards is not the place for you.

That’s mighty white of you to say that only white people like the hockey. Time for you to go on ignore.

I live in Phoenix, everybody said it wouldn’t work until it did. The problems there are the location, not the fan base. Lots of Mexicans (40% of the PHX metro population)went to Roadrunner games because they were cheap and the rink was in their neighborhood

Jack Kent Cooke used to say that a million Canadians lived in LA and they all hated hockey. Attendance was mediocre for ages until they brought Gretzky in.

 

[hansomreiste]

It’s the same load of baloney we got fed for the last 50 years. Provincialism is a local problem that happens everywhere.

So the problem with putting a KHL team in UAE is "provincialism"? Oh boy. By this logic of simplifying everything, we should call WW II "Second Round of Unpleasant Events".

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

That’s mighty white of you to say that only white people like the hockey. Time for you to go on ignore.

I live in Phoenix, everybody said it wouldn’t work until it did. The problems there are the location, not the fan base. Lots of Mexicans (40% of the PHX metro population)went to Roadrunner games because they were cheap and the rink was in their neighborhood

Jack Kent Cooke used to say that a million Canadians lived in LA and they all hated hockey. Attendance was mediocre for ages until they brought Gretzky in.

Statistically, hockey fans in north America are well over 90% white. It’s not white of me to say, it’s statistically correct. Time for you to read statistics.

Hockey really isn’t working there right now. There’s outside issues to that like arena location, but they’re in one of the largest metro areas in the country. Losing many millions per year. Imagine how bad a UAE team would be. And Jack Kent can say whatever he wants. That’s like saying that anything Don Cherry says has validity.

 

[Albatros]

I would like to see what the outcome would be in a game between the Dubai/Emirti national team and the Indian national team that is formed of the Himalayan Indians who play hockey as their main sport (I saw a documentary about it a couple years ago)...

The 2011 Challenge Cup of Asia had a meetup between the two teams, with the UAE winning 10:0, the game was described as follows:

"In their game against India, the United Arab Emirates came out with a plan to try and found the missing pieces in their game before the last day rivalry against Thailand. Not having to put all the energy on the ice, the Emirates went to a 5-0 lead after the first period with Saeed Al Nuaimi having succeeded twice. Joined by Ali Al Sarour (2) and a number of others in the last two periods, the team added five more goals and left Indian team without offensive opportunities in a 10-0 victory."

The composition of the Indian team seemed to be something like you describe, or at least many of the names are typical to that region.

 

[Rcknrollkillnmachine]

Uzbekistan, Monaco now Dubai. What will be the next bizzare, proposed destination (in fairness Uzbekistan I could see happening).