KHL Expansion Part VIII

[Jussi]

Hockey is a business everywhere but KHL. Germany: Frankfurt Lions, Hamburg Freezers both crap their pants and die. Not kept alive by Russian money. Finland: Espoo. Sweden: AIK stays in second division before getting promoted. Medvescak in Austria league.

And Swedish hockey blocks it, or at least they supposedly did. And people are staying concentrating on SHL, a league where even the third most valuable team loses the €10 million each year. Frölunda and Djugården play each other with money, Swedish honor, on the line, not to play KHL team miles away in next round.

All KHL teams except for CKA and CSKA lose money. DEL teams reject chance to join second best league in the world. Why? Money. RB Salzburg and München tell you to go drink your vodka somewhere else. French and Western European investors repeatedly show up but never buy a team after looking at the finances. Get real, open your eyes.

Well they're sort of losing money but it's not an issue due to being basically backed by government money.

 

[Jussi]

I did not hear about that. Not surprising since CHL really has no financial benefit like Champions League. However, with that logic, how can you expect teams who don’t want to travel for very few away games to join a league where that’s all they will be doing.

Considering the clubs earn money the better they succeed, maybe look at Banska Bystrica's record for the explanation: HC05 Banská Bystrica

If they want to make money, they should look at maybe winning more games? Even though they made only the finals, CHL has been financially beneficial for Kärpät. Granted they're also a bigger club than Banska, so travel costs aren't an issue for them. Next season there will be 200K € more prize money to share, with the winner getting 430K €.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Considering the clubs earn money the better they succeed, maybe look at Banska Bystrica's record for the explanation: HC05 Banská Bystrica

If they want to make money, they should look at maybe winning more games? Even though they made only the finals, CHL has been financially beneficial for Kärpät. Granted they're also a bigger club than Banska, so travel costs aren't an issue for them. Next season there will be 200K € more prize money to share, with the winner getting 430K €.

They need an improved TV deal and then the real money starts to come in. That alone might be enough to make it a much more sought after prize. When it starts to get up to around 1 million euro I'll be happy.

 

[Jussi]

They need an improved TV deal and then the real money starts to come in. That alone might be enough to make it a much more sought after prize. When it starts to get up to around 1 million euro I'll be happy.

Tv contracts are regional. And because the sports rights market is filled with networks already being way too much for various football leagues or domestic hockey leagues, there's not much money to throw around.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Tv contracts are regional. And because the sports rights market is filled with networks already being way too much for various football leagues or domestic hockey leagues, there's not much money to throw around.

I thought they had a contract with Eurosport? I know that continental hockey tournament isn't primetime stuff, but with the wide reach and potential I thought someone could take it. Mastercard sponsored the Memorial Cup for a longtime and it's a big financial win for the teams, the cities who host it less so. I think it's Kia now. It can't be that difficult to get Volkswagen, E.ON, Glencore, or Maersk to sponsor the trophy with a 3/4 million Euro prize.

 

[vorky]

I thought they had a contract with Eurosport? I know that continental hockey tournament isn't primetime stuff, but with the wide reach and potential I thought someone could take it. Mastercard sponsored the Memorial Cup for a longtime and it's a big financial win for the teams, the cities who host it less so. I think it's Kia now. It can't be that difficult to get Volkswagen, E.ON, Glencore, or Maersk to sponsor the trophy with a 3/4 million Euro prize.

You think?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

You think?

Škoda sponsors IIHF Tournament with several million deal, and the national associations pay for the everything. Would make things more appealing.

 

[Jussi]

I thought they had a contract with Eurosport? I know that continental hockey tournament isn't primetime stuff, but with the wide reach and potential I thought someone could take it. Mastercard sponsored the Memorial Cup for a longtime and it's a big financial win for the teams, the cities who host it less so. I think it's Kia now. It can't be that difficult to get Volkswagen, E.ON, Glencore, or Maersk to sponsor the trophy with a 3/4 million Euro prize.

They do but Eurosport aren't that big anymore and unlike in previous years, aren't available on free cable everywhere. Looking at what they have available in Finland, it's not worth it to buy a cable package that includes Eurosport.

 

[vorky]

Škoda sponsors IIHF Tournament with several million deal, and the national associations pay for the everything. Would make things more appealing.

The IIHF is not the European club hockey.

I am confused, you claim the European club hockey is a business, but later you claim it is not a business. Would be cool if you decide about it.

 

[Jussi]

European hockey is run like business, meaning profitability is expected. Due to other sports /meaning football) being way more interesting for the sponsors, tv and fans, it's not a great business for a pan-European competition.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

The IIHF is not the European club hockey.

I am confused, you claim the European club hockey is a business, but later you claim it is not a business. Would be cool if you decide about it.

Where do you see me claim it isn't a business? The only things I said is that Škoda sponsors the IIHF tournament. And the national associations pay for their players to go to the events, so unlike the CHL the individual franchises aren't responsible for player expenses and travel from their domestic leagues to compete.

And it would make things more appealing for the CHL to have a prize. Champions League loses a little bit of its charm to the teams when tens of millions in prize money is on the line. Managers wouldn't prioritize it over domestic leagues when there's nothing to be gained. None of that makes the claim that it isn't a business. It is a business everywhere except in Russia and eastern Europe, and that's because it's social donation there. These things are well known by everyone. If it weren't for mob money or government money covering the massive loses, the KHL wouldn't exist. Get your act together.

They do but Eurosport aren't that big anymore and unlike in previous years, aren't available on free cable everywhere. Looking at what they have available in Finland, it's not worth it to buy a cable package that includes Eurosport.

Was unaware of that. Are there any other television networks that covers Europe? I could really only think of them.

 

[Jussi]

Where do you see me claim it isn't a business? The only things I said is that Škoda sponsors the IIHF tournament. And the national associations pay for their players to go to the events, so unlike the CHL the individual franchises aren't responsible for player expenses and travel from their domestic leagues to compete.

And it would make things more appealing for the CHL to have a prize. Champions League loses a little bit of its charm to the teams when tens of millions in prize money is on the line. Managers wouldn't prioritize it over domestic leagues when there's nothing to be gained. None of that makes the claim that it isn't a business. It is a business everywhere except in Russia and eastern Europe, and that's because it's social donation there. These things are well known by everyone. If it weren't for mob money or government money covering the massive loses, the KHL wouldn't exist. Get your act together.



Was unaware of that. Are there any other television networks that covers Europe? I could really only think of them.

Prize money structure:

2019-20: Winner 430 000, overall 1,94 million
2020-21: Winner 575 000, overall 2,96 million
2021-22: Winner 645 000, overall 3,20 million
2022-23: Winner 720 000, overall 3,46 million

There's no other pan-European sports channel. Not free cable or pay-tv. Viasat's pay tv service is in many countries but the the amount of content by country differs widely.

 

[vorky]

@Barclay Donaldson

You want big corporations to sponsor the European club hockey, but when it is happening with the KHL, you claim it is not a business. But if that happened in another European league, you would claim it is a business.

So, you extended your definition of "no-business" to Eastern Europe. Great! Maybe within time, you will get to the rest of Europe! The progress has been seen.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

@Barclay Donaldson

You want big corporations to sponsor the European club hockey, but when it is happening with the KHL, you claim it is not a business. But if that happened in another European league, you would claim it is a business.

So, you extended your definition of "no-business" to Eastern Europe. Great! Maybe within time, you will get to the rest of Europe! The progress has been seen.

I can't tell if you're actually this foolish or if you're purposely being uneducated. If you don't know the difference between 1.) sponsoring a million dollar prize for the sole winner of a trophy and 2.) state run conglomerates and mafia-aligned owners annually subsidizing tens of millions in loses, then Europe needs to band together and fix Russian education system because it has clearly failed you.

 

[vorky]

So tell me, where are those "sponsoring a million dollar prize for the sole winner of a trophy" in European club hockey?

What do you say about a French KHL club sponsored by some big corporation? I guess it is not a business in your eyes.

Do you know what? European club hockey should be happy for every penny invested in that sport at club level. Even if the source of money is a state-run corporation.

Btw, in a lesser degree, you can find a club sponsored by a state-run corporation or municipality in every European hockey country.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

So tell me, where are those "sponsoring a million dollar prize for the sole winner of a trophy" in European club hockey?

What do you say about a French KHL club sponsored by some big corporation? I guess it is not a business in your eyes.

Do you know what? European club hockey should be happy for every penny invested in that sport at club level. Even if the source of money is a state-run corporation.

Btw, in a lesser degree, you can find a club sponsored by a state-run corporation or municipality in every European hockey country.

None of that made any sense and it wasn't a language barrier. Once again, you're ignoring the fundamental difference of a million dollar prize for a single winning team vs subsidizing all hockey operations for a team for the amount of tens of millions of dollars every year, and all 20 something teams in the league needing these subsidies. You're clearly not a person who understands how money works since that's something you could teach a child with a learning disability.

And there are none. Obviously there are none. There is no KHL French team and never will be. Not sure what that has to do with anything to do with this.

Of course there's state run corporations in civilized countries. It's just that there's not corruption at every level and puts millions of rubles directly into the pocket of the leaders of the country. Corruption that's estimated to be near or equal to their net income. Other countries don't have that. And those companies bankroll the local sports teams. Other countries don't do that either. Other countries' state run companies also don't get regularly fined by other countries for illegal practices. This is something only Russia experiences.

 

[Jussi]

I can't tell if you're actually this foolish or if you're purposely being uneducated. If you don't know the difference between 1.) sponsoring a million dollar prize for the sole winner of a trophy and 2.) state run conglomerates and mafia-aligned owners annually subsidizing tens of millions in loses, then Europe needs to band together and fix Russian education system because it has clearly failed you.

ITT: comparing a free arena lease of a small town hockey club = state owned companies/regional governments almost fully funding sports teams

In Finland several clubs pay the rent, e.g. in Kuopio the playoff rent was ~4700€ per game, fized figure for the regular season. In Lappeenranta it was 2000€.

 

[Jussi]

Just one more comparison on the finances of CHL success: Kalpa made plus minus zero result on the times they didn't make it out of their group. When they got to the quarterfinals, they made profit.

 

[vorky]

Once again @Barclay Donaldson, tell me where are those millions of sponsorship money in European club hockey? Or they are no such money?

 

[alko]

Name just one bigger "federal" derby in former Czechslovakia than Slovan v Sparta.

There is one crucial word: former. Imo, also this isnt any more as it could be like 20 years ago. You can see it on the Slovakia : Czech matches. The older from us could remember, how was the atmosphere in 90s and at the begin of 2000. It was unthinkable and incomparable to present games.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Once again @Barclay Donaldson, tell me where are those millions of sponsorship money in European club hockey? Or they are no such money?

It isn’t there. I made a suggestion. Obviously. I wasn’t making a command. I made a suggestion at a possibility and it’s feasibility. Looking at the growing prize money, it looks like it doesn’t even need it that made. Go learn the difference between a small amount of prize money and subsidizing tens of millions annually in team operations regardless of performance. Also known as the difference between KHL and European club hockey.

 

[vorky]

It isn’t there. I made a suggestion. Obviously. I wasn’t making a command. I made a suggestion at a possibility and it’s feasibility. Looking at the growing prize money, it looks like it doesn’t even need it that made. Go learn the difference between a small amount of prize money and subsidizing tens of millions annually in team operations regardless of performance. Also known as the difference between KHL and European club hockey.

Yeah, I get it. According to you, it is much better for European club hockey, if the prize money is small than bigger money in the KHL. Great, that is a way for the development of the European club hockey!

 

[Jussi]

There is no prize money in the KHL. It's better to have even "small" prize money that is guaranteed, than to be at the whims of Russian oligarchs/state run companies who might just suddenly turn off the tap for whatever reasons and leave the club at the point of extinction like Lev Prague.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Yeah, I get it. According to you, it is much better for European club hockey, if the prize money is small than bigger money in the KHL. Great, that is a way for the development of the European club hockey!

Better to see it grow slowly but steadily and sustainably than to be reliant on huge government run corrupt companies to take care of everything. Eventually, they will catch up to the KHL and won’t be reliant on Gazprom to pay the bill at the end of each season. Heck, their attendance is almost as high as KHL attendance despite it being lower quality hockey! Imagine how it will be in 10 years of them growing at this rate.

 

[vorky]

Better to see it grow slowly but steadily and sustainably than to be reliant on huge government run corrupt companies to take care of everything. Eventually, they will catch up to the KHL and won’t be reliant on Gazprom to pay the bill at the end of each season. Heck, their attendance is almost as high as KHL attendance despite it being lower quality hockey! Imagine how it will be in 10 years of them growing at this rate.

There are people who want as much money as possible in European club hockey.

You are not such a guy, I would say. Sadly.