Kevyn Adams GM thread

[Bendium]

What don't you like about Savoie and who would you have drafted instead?

Same as I have stated before. I do not like taking small players near the top of the draft. You almost always have guys with good NHL size available who have the talent. The differences are often marginal in that 3rd tier of guys we have been picking from. Given the choice I will take the talent with size. Every year that I watch the playoffs (40+ years), it tends to be the larger, more physical teams that win. The speedy, offensive teams get into the playoffs because regular season hockey is different. Thats what I fear KA is building. A fast, fun, high event team that will make the playoffs every year. Maybe thats what he should do business wise given what happened the last 13 years. Rebuild the fan base. But I want more than that. I want to see us win a cup, and I don't believe you do that with a team fielding Rosen, Savoie, Benson, Kulikov all at the same time.

I have nothing against Savoie personally, and since he is a Sabre I am totally rooting for him to succeed, but I would have went with a more NHL sized player. JMHO.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Same as I have stated before. I do not like taking small players near the top of the draft. You almost always have guys with good NHL size available who have the talent. The differences are often marginal in that 3rd tier of guys we have been picking from. Given the choice I will take the talent with size. Every year that I watch the playoffs (40+ years), it tends to be the larger, more physical teams that win. The speedy, offensive teams get into the playoffs because regular season hockey is different. Thats what I fear KA is building. A fast, fun, high event team that will make the playoffs every year. Maybe thats what he should do business wise given what happened the last 13 years. Rebuild the fan base. But I want more than that. I want to see us win a cup, and I don't believe you do that with a team fielding Rosen, Savoie, Benson, Kulikov all at the same time.

I have nothing against Savoie personally, and since he is a Sabre I am totally rooting for him to succeed, but I would have went with a more NHL sized player. JMHO.

For future reference, should we compare Savoie's first couple NHL years with Conor Geekie, McGroarty, Ohgren, Gaucher, and Snuggerud?

 

[Zman5778]

Same as I have stated before. I do not like taking small players near the top of the draft. You almost always have guys with good NHL size available who have the talent.

So would you have taken Fantilli over Bedard, since Fantilli is "NHL sized" in your world and Bedard isn't?

I want to see us win a cup, and I don't believe you do that with a team fielding Rosen, Savoie, Benson, Kulikov all at the same time.

You do realize that it's highly unlikely that all 4 of them ever play together as Sabres, right? The likelihood that they ALL hit as NHL players and none of them get traded is rather low. Also, Kulich is rather average-sized. His height starts with a 6.

 

[Bendium]

For future reference, should we compare Savoie's first couple NHL years with Conor Geekie, McGroarty, Ohgren, Gaucher, and Snuggerud?

We can always sift thru to find examples of small guys that succeed and big guys that fail. It doesn't change the argument. Just because something is possible, doesn't make it likely.

 

[Bendium]

So would you have taken Fantilli over Bedard, since Fantilli is "NHL sized" in your world and Bedard isn't?

I was on record before the draft, that I did not like any of the group of likely available at 13. That we should trade up, down, or out of that pick. My preference by a longshot, both at the deadline, and this draft, was to use the pick in a trade to improve the NHL club.

 

[Zman5778]

I was on record before the draft, that I did not like any of the group of likely available at 13. That we should trade up, down, or out of that pick. My preference by a longshot, both at the deadline, and this draft, was to use the pick in a trade to improve the NHL club.

Nice dodge. If we had pick 1, would you have taken Bedard since he doesn't have your desired "NHL size"?

 

[valet]

If he and his staff can complement the strong drafting with strong FA signings and trade acquisitions we'll be in for a treat for a long time. I'm still hopeful.

and if we draft well enough, FAs will actually want to come here too. it really has to be the core strength for a small market org like buff, there is no other practical way to do it

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

He's a master of asset collection - prospects, picks, cap space. I hope we can all agree on that.

But will he prove to be a master of asset utilization? That remains to be seen.

Hopefully he will improve significantly on the disappointing moves of last summer.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

So with the 2nd round over, Adams has had 6 1sts and six 2nd round picks in the last 3 years. He’s converted one of them to immediate help despite plenty of pressing needs.

We have more forwards that we can reasonably develop.

Draft picks are currency. Spending them nearly all on prospects is foolish.

Listen Tim, when you settle your tab at Bada-Bings maybe they'll let you back into hockey.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

We can always sift thru to find examples of small guys that succeed and big guys that fail. It doesn't change the argument. Just because something is possible, doesn't make it likely.

I know, that's why I'm trying to be more specific about who you view favorably to Savoie. The only bigger options are from the 1st rd of that draft. It's really any/all of those players to compare him to. I just wondered if you had someone specific in mind. Maybe you just hope one of them ends up the better player to "prove" your point.

I'm not necessarily trying to disprove your point either. I prefer a guy with size and toughness compared to a roughly equally skilled but smaller FW. But I prefer to get specific when a certain player is mentioned. You specifically pointed out Savoie. He wasn't my top choice (I hoped for Kasper), but I can't/won't be down on him just for size. If there was a better option to you, due to size, you should at least have a player or two in mind that you like better and be ready to compare him with.

 

[JLewyB]

When’s the last time we didn’t have a top-4 issue? Just overpay and answer it already KA

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

We can always sift thru to find examples of small guys that succeed and big guys that fail. It doesn't change the argument. Just because something is possible, doesn't make it likely.

It certainly should shape the argument. There aren't enough players drafted in the 1st round to be some unsurmountable mountain of data.

 

[Bendium]

Nice dodge. If we had pick 1, would you have taken Bedard since he doesn't have your desired "NHL size"?

Right. Good one. You can push extremes to antagonize the argument all you want. I have an opinion and gave my reasons why. I wasn't dodging, my answer just isn't what you wanted. You don't have to agree with it, but maybe try understanding the argument I made instead of just attacking what you don't like. There is a good reason why Bedard slipped to 13. The concept is one supported by at least 13 GM's that went before us. So, you might want to consider that there could be some validity to it. If we had not taken, very undersized forwards Rosen and Savoie in the first round of our last two drafts then I might be more amenable to the Benson pick, but that's not the case, so I am not.

 

[Bendium]

I know, that's why I'm trying to be more specific about who you view favorably to Savoie. The only bigger options are from the 1st rd of that draft. It's really any/all of those players to compare him to. I just wondered if you had someone specific in mind. Maybe you just hope one of them ends up the better player to "prove" your point.

I'm not necessarily trying to disprove your point either. I prefer a guy with size and toughness compared to a roughly equally skilled but smaller FW. But I prefer to get specific when a certain player is mentioned. You specifically pointed out Savoie. He wasn't my top choice (I hoped for Kasper), but I can't/won't be down on him just for size. If there was a better option to you, due to size, you should at least have a player or two in mind that you like better and be ready to compare him with.

I honestly can't go back and tell you what player I wanted instead. With a year of playtime under their belt, doing it now would be revisionist history anyways. The problem I run into here is that people take player comments too personally. I don't hate Savoie, but philosophically I did not like the pick. I believe that in general, size matters in the NHL, especially in the playoffs. Size is a talent that you cannot teach. Taking big guys in the later rounds, that will likely not make the NHL. or will at best be 4th line grinders is fine, but it doesn't get size into the upper half of your lineup normally. For that, you usually have to take it in the 1st round, and we have gone 4 straight drafts without doing so (Power excluded). Or you can take the guys we took and TRADE them for things you need later, but we have shown ZERO inclination to do that in KA tenure. If we are going to go all in on the draft and develop route, then we should have taken some size in these last couple drafts.

 

[joshjull]

……. I believe that in general, size matters in the NHL, especially in the playoffs. Size is a talent that you cannot teach. ……..

Size is not a talent nor does it matter to the extent you feel it does.

The average size of a NHL player is roughly 6’1” 200lbs. Tampa Played in 3 Cup finals and won 2 with a lot of players below that average height or weight or both.

Palat -——> 6’ 194lbs
Colton ——> 6’ 194lbs
Stamkos -> 6’ 185lbs
Cirelli ——> 6’ 185bs
Coleman -> 5’11” 200lbs
Bellemare -> 5”11” 200lbs
Kucherov -> 5’11” 180lbs
Point ———> 5’11” 180lbs
Gourde——> 5’9” 174lbs
Johnson —-> 5’8” 185lbs

Their forward group was very much on the smaller side, especially their stars.


The Avs dethroned them and they weren’t that big either.

Mac ———-> 6’ 200lbs
Helm ———> 6’ 192lbs
Compher —> 6’ 190lbs
Kadri ———> 6’ 185lbs
O’Connor —> 6’ 175lbs
Makar ———> 5’11” 185lbs
Lehkonen —> 5’11” 180lbs
Newhook —-> 5’10” 190lbs
Cogliano —-> 5’10” 180lbs
Girard ———> 5’10” 170lbs



Neither Tampa nor the Avs won due to being the bigger team, because neither of them were. They won because of talent, depth, toughness, etc.

 

[Matt Ress]

Size is not a talent nor does it matter to the extent you feel it does.

The average size of a NHL player is roughly 6’1” 200lbs. Tampa Played in 3 Cup finals and won 2 with a lot of players below that average.Tampa players below the league average height or weight or both……….

Palat -——> 6’ 194lbs
Colton ——> 6’ 194lbs
Stamkos -> 6’ 185lbs
Cirelli ——> 6’ 185bs
Coleman -> 5’11” 200lbs
Bellemare -> 5”11” 200lbs
Kucherov -> 5’11” 180lbs
Point ———> 5’11” 180lbs
Gourde——> 5’9” 174lbs
Johnson —-> 5’8” 185lbs

Their forward group was very much on the smaller side.


The Avs dethroned them and they weren’t that big either.Avs players below league average height or weight or both………

Mac ———-> 6’ 200lbs
Helm ———> 6’ 192lbs
Compher —> 6’ 190lbs
Kadri ———> 6’ 185lbs
O’Connor —> 6’ 175lbs
Makar ———> 5’11” 185lbs
Lehkonen —> 5’11” 180lbs
Newhook —-> 5’10” 190lbs
Cogliano —-> 5’10” 180lbs
Girard ———> 5’10” 170lbs



Neither Tampa nor the Avs won due to being the bigger team, because neither of them were. They won because of talent, depth, toughness, etc.

I think a lot of the narrative comes from the Sabres style of play. They're around middle of the league in height and a bit lower in weight, which you can attribute to some very young guys on the team.

You seldom see a defenseman tapering off for a big hit or retaliation for a forward that gets crunched on the boards. They keep play moving with speed. Size be damned, they're just not a mean team which is probably by design.

 

[joshjull]

I think a lot of the narrative comes from the Sabres style of play. They're around middle of the league in height and a bit lower in weight, which you can attribute to some very young guys on the team.

You seldom see a defenseman tapering off for a big hit or retaliation for a forward that gets crunched on the boards. They keep play moving with speed. Size be damned, they're just not a mean team which is probably by design.

Thats its own conversation and his attempt to distract. @Bendium has been ranting about the Benson pick since it happened due to his lack of size. He’s been throwing shit against the wall and continually expanding the debate to all sorts of topics that aren’t directly related to Benson the player.

The idea that a small, highly skilled player can’t be a contributor on a Cup team has been roundly debunked. Especially when said player plays with an edge. He has no counter argument so he keeps moving the goalposts and mudding the waters with all the other stuff he throws into this debate.

 

[Dingo44]

Thats its own conversation and his attempt to distract. @Bendium has been ranting about the Benson pick since it happened due to his lack of size. He’s been throwing shit against the wall and continually expanding the debate to all sorts of topics that aren’t directly related to Benson the player.

The idea that a small, highly skilled player can’t be a contributor on a Cup team has been roundly debunked. Especially when said player plays with an edge. He has no counter argument so he keeps moving the goalposts and mudding the waters with all the other stuff he throws into this debate.

Four of the last ten Conn Smythe winners are under 6 feet and another three more are 6'1".

Jonathan Marchessault 5'9" 174
Cale Makar 5'11" 187
Andrei Vasilevskiy 6'4" 225 (Goalie)
Victor Hedman 6'6" 241R
Ryan O'Reilly 6'1" 216
Alexander Ovechkin 6'2" 235
Sidney Crosby 5'11" 200
Duncan Keith 6'1" 192
Justin Williams 6'1" 184
Patrick Kane 5'10" 177

Drafting for size is dumb. Drafting for size in lieu of elite talent sitting right at your pick is super dumb.

Plus the rest of our draft was pretty much huge. And our top two centers are big and REALLY big.

I predicted a few posters would hate our pick no matter who he was and honestly it turns out only one could find a reason to hate it. I'll take the 99% who love it.

 

[Gras]

Thats its own conversation and his attempt to distract. @Bendium has been ranting about the Benson pick since it happened due to his lack of size. He’s been throwing shit against the wall and continually expanding the debate to all sorts of topics that aren’t directly related to Benson the player.

The idea that a small, highly skilled player can’t be a contributor on a Cup team has been roundly debunked. Especially when said player plays with an edge. He has no counter argument so he keeps moving the goalposts and mudding the waters with all the other stuff he throws into this debate.

Gerbe and Ennis both had an edge when they need to

 

[Dingo44]

Gerbe and Ennis both had an edge when they need to

Don't get how anyone can call themselves a Sabres fan and be a size queen.

Danny Brière 5'9" 174
Chris Drury 5'10" 190
Stu Barnes 5'11" 174
Donald Audette 5'8" 192
Rick Martin 5'11" 179
DANNY GARE 5'9" 175

 

[Matt Ress]

Listen Tim, when you settle your tab at Bada-Bings maybe they'll let you back into hockey.

Oh man that brings me back. Some of my least proud moments were spent at the original on Forest Ave

 

[Bendium]

Thats its own conversation and his attempt to distract. @Bendium has been ranting about the Benson pick since it happened due to his lack of size. He’s been throwing shit against the wall and continually expanding the debate to all sorts of topics that aren’t directly related to Benson the player.

The idea that a small, highly skilled player can’t be a contributor on a Cup team has been roundly debunked. Especially when said player plays with an edge. He has no counter argument so he keeps moving the goalposts and mudding the waters with all the other stuff he throws into this debate.

What a load of crap. I am not ranting about Benson. We made the pick, and I gave my opinion about it. I didn't like the pick and stated why. I am entitled to my opinion just like anyone on this board. I don't go to your posts and just start calling you an idiot, but you consistently single me out to do so.

Your first post comparing data on two cup contenders was fine. I think your counting outliers as the norm, but I accept the data and the premise that it is possible.

Your second post though is a personal attack that should have no place here. It would be great if ALL of us Sabres fans could have reasonable and respectful discourse about our favorite team on this board, but as long as the moderators allow posters to bully the discussion it will never happen.

 

[Zman5778]

I think your counting outliers as the norm, but I accept the data and the premise that it is possible.

And I think what you think is "the norm" isn't the norm anymore. It's commonplace for Cup-winning and highly successful teams to have 1 or 2 (or more) people 6'0" or shorter. The norm anymore is that Cup-winning and highly successful teams have a couple of shorter-than-average skaters playing big roles. They're not FILLED with small players.....and neither will the Sabres be filled with smaller players.

Just because we've got a bunch in the pipeline doesn't mean that they're all going to play with us at the same time.....or even at all.

 

[HOOats]

I'm just going to leave this here...

 

[Fjordy]

I'm just going to leave this here...

Well it's logical