Confirmed with Link: Keith Jones actually set to be named real life part-time President of Hockey Operations, Danny Briere full-time GM

[Hollywood Cannon]

Woof.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Unfortunately, that's basically the same evaluation process the team uses. Which is why they're terrible.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

There’s an interesting discussion to be had about how high end NHL talent like McDavid and Makar have the ability to ratchet up defensive play, but it almost always comes with a moderate to sizable impact on how much offense they can create. It’s an intrinsically linked push-pull relationship on many axes.

Unfortunately the Flyers seem as uninterested in attacking such a discussion from that angle as some fans do. It’s much easier to question effort.

 

[Beef Invictus]

There’s an interesting discussion to be had about how high end NHL talent like McDavid and Makar have the ability to ratchet up defensive play, but it almost always comes with a moderate to sizable impact on how much offense they can create. It’s an intrinsically linked push-pull relationship on many axes.

Unfortunately the Flyers seem as uninterested in attacking such a discussion from that angle as some fans do. It’s much easier to question effort.

I wonder how often the reduction in production in pursuit of more defense is offset by defensive gains?

 

[Magua]

Actually, he probably wouldn't, because Makar is pretty responsible defensively and doesn't shy away from contact.
He would take Spurgeon over Ghost, however.

You didn't acknowledge MacKinnon's defensive metrics being worse than McDavid's. I feel like that doesn't jibe with the narrative.

Everyone (except one person) would take Spurgeon over Ghost. This isn't as praiseworthy as you think it is. Tortorella would probably take Ristolainen over Spurgeon, however.

 

[Starat327]

The only thing dumber than preferring or taking ANY player in the NHL today over McDavid is arguing with peoppe dumb enough to defend that stance.

 

[Tripod]

Barkov is going to a SCF. What has McDavid done?

Smrt

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Barkov is going to a SCF. What has McDavid done?

Smrt

Zing..

signed Torts.

 

[deadhead]

There’s an interesting discussion to be had about how high end NHL talent like McDavid and Makar have the ability to ratchet up defensive play, but it almost always comes with a moderate to sizable impact on how much offense they can create. It’s an intrinsically linked push-pull relationship on many axes.

Unfortunately the Flyers seem as uninterested in attacking such a discussion from that angle as some fans do. It’s much easier to question effort.

I'm not sure there's much of an impact for "normal" effort, that is, unless playing defense requires being ultra-conservative.

Now there will be some impact if a player is defensively responsible and doesn't cherry pick, etc., but that's an extreme case where you sacrifice a few points for a dramatic impact defensively (i.e., don't be terrible on defense by cheating on offense). But unless a player lacks stamina to the point where back checking saps their legs, playing defense shouldn't have a large impact on offense (and this is partially compensated by offense generated by flipping the ice).

The bigger impact probably isn't due to individual effect, but the team effect where disciplined play means you don't get caught with four players deep in the O-zone (b/c a forward didn't cycle back to cover a D-man) and so on. Teams that gamble on offense (and thus score more) will be vulnerable on defense.

 

[deadhead]

Everyone (except one person) would take Spurgeon over Ghost. This isn't as praiseworthy as you think it is. Tortorella would probably take Ristolainen over Spurgeon, however.

I doubt it. All things being equal, most HCs prefer size on the back end, but Spurgeon can play defense.

 

[VladDrag]

The game has passed him by.

How can you watch this and think, yeah, this guy is the one to bring in a new era... So f***ing behind the times.

 

[Lindberg]

Are people really even arguing that they would pick anyone over McDavid for a playoff series?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Are people really even arguing that they would pick anyone over McDavid for a playoff series?

They're certainly trying to justify Tortorella wanting to do that

 

[Lindberg]

They're certainly trying to justify Tortorella wanting to do that

Yeah dumb argument.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah dumb argument.

And they're also trying to paint McDavid as a Malkinesque defensive liability when he isn't.

So you know, business as usual

 

[deadhead]

Are people really even arguing that they would pick anyone over McDavid for a playoff series?

No one has argued that. The point is the McDavid would be a better player if he made the transition Sidney made mid-career, where he went from elite offensive player to elite two way player. It's less whether there's a net benefit from his play than the example your best player sets for his teammates - that winning is more important than personal stats.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

No one has argued that. The point is the McDavid would be a better player if he made the transition Sidney made mid-career, where he went from elite offensive player to elite two way player. It's less whether there's a net benefit from his play than the example your best player sets for his teammates - that winning is more important than personal stats.

John Tortorella did and you are doing the same by making that statement. He'd rather have a "complete player", ala Barkov, then what McDavid is which is moronic.

 

[deadhead]

John Tortorella did and you are doing the same by making that statement. He'd rather have a "complete player", ala Barkov, then what McDavid is which is moronic.

Team chemistry is elusive, but real.

I think there's a "superstar" effect in both the NHL and NBA, where a great player may make it harder to build a great team, b/c there's a tendency for teammates to subconsciously wait for that player to win games for them, and b/c game plans tend to be distorted toward funneling play through that player. In the NHL, it's more in terms of a top line driven by a great player(s) and the rest of the team become bystanders.

TB didn't have that one player/line, they had a group of top players spread through the lineup, but even then, they took it up another level not by adding more firepower, but an energy line (Goodrow - Gourde - Coleman) that was effectively their 2nd line (in terms of TOI) when they won back to back Cups. That balanced two excellent scoring lines.

As good as Lindros was, you wonder if the Flyers win a Cup if they don't make that trade and field a much deeper team.

I don't think Edmonton will become a great team until and if they build a team that doesn't depend on McDavid winning games single handedly, like he did in the 2021-22 playoffs. Rather a team good enough that he becomes the "wild card" but the rest of the team can hold its own in the playoffs. While you might blame the goalies this year, the previous two seasons Mike Smith was good enough in the playoffs to win.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Team chemistry is elusive, but real.

I think there's a "superstar" effect in both the NHL and NBA, where a great player may make it harder to build a great team, b/c there's a tendency for teammates to subconsciously wait for that player to win games for them, and b/c game plans tend to be distorted toward funneling play through that player. In the NHL, it's more in terms of a top line driven by a great player(s) and the rest of the team become bystanders.

TB didn't have that one player/line, they had a group of top players spread through the lineup, but even then, they took it up another level not by adding more firepower, but an energy line (Goodrow - Gourde - Coleman) that was effectively their 2nd line (in terms of TOI) when they won back to back Cups. That balanced two excellent scoring lines.

As good as Lindros was, you wonder if the Flyers win a Cup if they don't make that trade and field a much deeper team.

I don't think Edmonton will become a great team until and if they build a team that doesn't depend on McDavid winning games single handedly, like he did in the 2021-22 playoffs. Rather a team good enough that he becomes the "wild card" but the rest of the team can hold its own in the playoffs. While you might blame the goalies this year, the previous two seasons Mike Smith was good enough in the playoffs to win.

So... your point is that teams need depth in order to win because one player can't do it all himself? Shocking stuff.

That in no way means that Barkov should ever be preferred to McDavid.

Tortorella said what he said and it was dumb. It's as simple as that. We're not moving the goalposts to whatever it is that you want to move it to now.

 

[CutOnDime97]

Must..agree..with..Torts

 

[Beef Invictus]

No one has argued that. The point is the McDavid would be a better player if he made the transition Sidney made mid-career, where he went from elite offensive player to elite two way player. It's less whether there's a net benefit from his play than the example your best player sets for his teammates - that winning is more important than personal stats.

No he wouldn't. Maybe when he's 35.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Must..agree..with..Torts

It's not even agreeing with Torts. It's changing the content of what Tortorella says completely in order to defend the man even though what is being defended isn't even who Tortorella is. It's a figment of imagination.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Team chemistry is elusive, but real.

I think there's a "superstar" effect in both the NHL and NBA, where a great player may make it harder to build a great team, b/c there's a tendency for teammates to subconsciously wait for that player to win games for them, and b/c game plans tend to be distorted toward funneling play through that player. In the NHL, it's more in terms of a top line driven by a great player(s) and the rest of the team become bystanders.

TB didn't have that one player/line, they had a group of top players spread through the lineup, but even then, they took it up another level not by adding more firepower, but an energy line (Goodrow - Gourde - Coleman) that was effectively their 2nd line (in terms of TOI) when they won back to back Cups. That balanced two excellent scoring lines.

As good as Lindros was, you wonder if the Flyers win a Cup if they don't make that trade and field a much deeper team.

I don't think Edmonton will become a great team until and if they build a team that doesn't depend on McDavid winning games single handedly, like he did in the 2021-22 playoffs. Rather a team good enough that he becomes the "wild card" but the rest of the team can hold its own in the playoffs. While you might blame the goalies this year, the previous two seasons Mike Smith was good enough in the playoffs to win.

McDavid has perfect chemistry on any team in the league.

This is like turning your nose up at Mario or Wayne because they don't defend more. Literally the same thing. It's insane. When defending the team requires being completely unreasonable, it isn't worth defending.

 

[Rebels57]

It's not even agreeing with Torts. It's changing the content of what Tortorella says completely in order to defend the man even though what is being defended isn't even who Tortorella is. It's a figment of imagination.

It's the same thing he's been doing for years, no matter what or who the topic. It's the same thing he'll continue to do for more years to come because you nimkampoops keep taking the bait

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's not even agreeing with Torts. It's changing the content of what Tortorella says completely in order to defend the man even though what is being defended isn't even who Tortorella is. It's a figment of imagination.

As I've been saying for a long time now, if you have to lie to defend something you shouldn't be defending it.