Detroit Knights
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- Feb 29, 2012
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So do you believe getting in to the playoffs for the first time in 7 years, getting actual experience for larkin/ray/seider in the playoffs, is wasting our time?
Confirmed with Link: Kane to Detroit
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norrisnick
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- Apr 14, 2005
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At the expense of any experience at all for players like Ed and Berggren? Yeah.
Detroit Knights
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- Feb 29, 2012
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you just hit enter after each statement you want to answer. I only know that because I accidentally hit enter once and it does it for you lol.
I believe we should be playing them half and half or just sticking with one pp unit which would be stupid tbh. I think we should also change the powerplay units when pp1 is just not working or gaining entry. It's so annoying to see us have pp1 out there and they try to enter the zone, the other team blocks the pass or whatever and ice's the puck, then the same thing happens 2 more times....like its not working just switch the units but no, can't do that we have to waste a full minute of the powerplay trying to be stubborn.
I will just keep agreeing with you about berggren being a good playmaker and is a better point producer. People keep bringing this up in rebutting what I say and I always agree because that really isn't up for debate. The problem is, like you said, is he does not shoot it because he is just a playmaker and that is fine. The problem is, if he is on the powerplay, he most likely will be on it with raymond, and they both play the same way on the powerplay. Raymond does shoot more, i'll concede that, but that is essentially because berggren just doesn't shoot it.
scoring so many times is fantastic! But if he is doing that on a bad team and is not playing defense, then maybe we wouldn't have more goals against? Not just when he is on the ice, but when we get pinned down in our own zone and he is able to get a change somehow, the other team still has a strangle hold in the ozone and the momentum carries. But if he is able to shore up his defensive game, then maybe those chances go down when he is on the ice and immediately off of it (not like 5 minutes after...want to make that clear).
I agree, he does not need to be a great two-way player. As I told you before, what he should do is play straight up defense for 3 weeks in GR, get the call up because that is the only thing lalonde and yzerman get upset about with him, then wait a year or year and a half with his offense abilities (cherry picking?) and play strong defense, then when you are firmly in the league, drop your defense and focus back on your offense.
Counter point, if he did what i just said, he probably won't forget how he was playing that defense and it may slip but he would still be playing semi-decent defense.
Couple points here.
Yes...we should be trading two defenseman because that is the only way you get edvinsson up and consistently on the roster......
Yes...we should trade for another dman like hanifin to shore up our defense and make them better.
This is to answer you, but this is also to answer @norrisnick s last post he just sent off: I never said we will win the cup. We won't. But going to the playoffs would change the entire culture for the past 7 years. How's buffalo doing? They have all this talent and never make the playoffs. What like 12 years they've been absent? Do you really want to be like them because they are playing other their younger players and have been...and all of their year one and year two players that are playing are better than our entire ahl system...What do you think has made them fail this many times? Probably the culture of perpetual losing and having essentially no one in the lineup worth a damn who knows what playoff hockey is about.
Once larkin and seider and raymond get the taste of playoffs, it effectively ends beginning stages of a rebuild, especially if it isn't a fluke. Having Edvinsson up would be ideal and I would love for him to have that playoff experience as well, and I do think we get that chance by trade deadline. I do not care if we go to the playoffs and get swept for this year. The actual significance of getting there far outweighs just missing out again and we get to bit*h about the lottery system again for a whole summer.
If that is what you guys want to do then you'll never be happy. Let's just throw an all rookie team out there for experience? Oh, the reason why we don't do that is pretty clear: there are experiences that are positive and negative. Having a lot of rookies playing at one time is negative unless they are all crosby's and ovechkin's. or at least have one in the realm of them. But you can have a positive experience when you have a winning culture, a playoff bound team, a bunch of veterans that have been there done that ****and can still do it****.
Having a rookie up is great and hopefully we bring one up soon, but doing it for the sake of doing it because you want to watch them play, is just not how it works. Today's society is so soft that people have to feel rewarded before they actually do something that is worth to be rewarded for.
Plain and simple: berggren has offense but has no defense. We are obviously at an impasse and that is fine, we can agree to disagree and that is 100% okay. But let me leave you and this conversation with one question: What is the most glaringly obvious issue we have on this team right now: offense or defense (goalie is another conversation for another time, but then again, goalie issues could be a direct result of defense)?
norrisnick
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Come one what?
Is it a good thing that Mo and Ray have 2 years of NHL experience?
If the answer is yes, why wouldn't it also be a good thing for Ed and Bergie to be getting NHL experience now?
If the answer is no... then I don't know what to tell you.
norrisnick
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Puck possession. Everything stems from a glaring deficiency in moving the puck from zone to zone.
I mean sure..if the singular goal is to ensure every prospect receives 2 years NHL experience before they or the team participates in meaningful games than okay..I agree with you
Raymond and Seider are and were simply better than Edvinsson or Berggren which might be why they played more games sooner ?
Red Wings‘ roster was in much worse shape. Raymond beat out corps of Bobby Ryan for the spot, no way he‘d made this year's team out of camp. And given how Edvinsson is treated i‘m not so sure about Seider making this team out of camp. I mean, Petry is playing more than him even now, imagine he‘d have been a rookie.
RedHawkDown
still trying to trust the yzerplan
Revisionist history. Raymond was not better than Berggren has been, not even close actually. He was mostly handed a spot because the roster was god awful, and then ran with it.
Agree to disagree..
I thought Raymond was better at 19 then Berggren has been at 23..
I do not believe whatsoever that today if playing FT with Larkin that Berggren would 100% guarantee put up 57 or more pts(he would have to equal or better Raymond's rookie year)
norrisnick
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I whole heartedly disagree with were. Obviously now, with said experience, they are well ahead. But Ed pre and post draft was as good or better than Mo. Bergie had a lag year or two to injury but is absolutely better now than Ray was at 19.
RedHawkDown
still trying to trust the yzerplan
Yeah not sure what you were watching then. Raymond was not that great in preseason, solid but nothing ground breaking. He started flourishing once the season started for sure, hence the “ran with it “ comment.
Brggren has not been given the chance to run with it despite 4 pts in 7 games with 10 min of ice time and no PP time.
You believe for 100% certainly that if JB played this year with Larkin he would put up 57pts in 82 games?
He would have to do so to be better at 23 then Raymond at 19
Ok...why do you think JB isnt being given those opportunities...is it personal?
RedHawkDown
still trying to trust the yzerplan
Because I believe JB is being mismanaged. I hate this kind of thinking - as if everything any NHL team does is always logical and the correct choice, and if we disagree, it’s because we aren’t privy to some secret info or we believe in some conspiracy. Sometimes teams are just wrong. In fact it’s not just sometimes, it happens constantly.
norrisnick
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Comfortably.
I don't disagree at all..mistakes are made all the time..I do not differ to any sort of authority thinking so lets not go down that path.
I'm just asking the question.
I think it's likely something beyond they just dont know better
RedHawkDown
still trying to trust the yzerplan
I think Lalonde is obsessed with playing veterans like a lot of NHL coaches are, and has a much shorter leash on Berggren than he has on guys who are worse on every side of the puck like Perron.
If we were winning and in a top 3 division spot, I wouldn’t argue with the results. But continuing to trot out trash and not give our one skilled forward prospect that’s ready to contribute any playing time is asinine.
jaster
I am become woke, destroyer of ignorance.
- Jun 8, 2007
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So Mickey calling people who have been blaming Kane for the Wings losing streak "stupid" was a thing that happened.
norrisnick
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I was today years old when I learned Mick lurked on HFBoards.
A problem for Berggren I think is that he seems to be a slow starter. In both pre-seasons he has been a part of, he has looked quite meh. Same with the first call-up this year, he looked down-right bad.
When it comes to Raymond he probably wouldn't have made this years team at 19, but I wonder if that would have been such a bad thing? (Even back then, would he had made the team if Vrana was healthy, probably not).
I do think you are miss-remembering regarding Raymonds first pre-season though. He led the team in pre-season points (played most games, but even pt/60 was good) and in his game vs Chicago he looked more dominant than Berggren ever has.
Other than that I do share your sentiment regarding Lalonde, and I wonder if Seider and Raymond would have had as good rookie seasons as they had, if Lalonde would have been the coach back then.
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What a great addition to the team. Kane makes this team better
GreatGordie9
Registered User
Offense now with Kane is great, the big big big big, problem is our D and goaltending. Blowing four goal leads is unacceptable. It will give coaches ulcers and grey hair. In Newsy's case maybe high blood pressure and a ulcer. Grey hair na lol.
Roomba With a Bauer
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- Sep 11, 2007
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If Yzerman hadn't loaded the team with EBUGs and AHL defensemen they would be challenging for tops in the East.
Bringing up Edvinsson and trading for Gibson would go a long way toward fixing this team.
cvaicunas
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- Aug 25, 2021
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Problem is they are not AHL defensemen, hence the questioning of the coaching at this point. Are they all stars? Of course not, but the lack of defensive positioning is just attrocious at this point.
