Confirmed with Link: Kane to Detroit

[RRhoads]

I hope they don't trade Kane, but rather extend him. His experience is invaluable for the youngsters, and he is still pretty damn good. Need players like that on the team, even if they are not part of the future in which we hope to contend.

 

[raymond23]

Since the Kane signing we’ve taken the puck off Seider and Raymond’s sticks

Love what Kane is doing but it’s tough to watch our franchise dman and winger get 30 seconds of disjointed powerplay time

 

[Detroit Knights]

Since the Kane signing we’ve taken the puck off Seider and Raymond’s sticks

Love what Kane is doing but it’s tough to watch our franchise dman and winger get 30 seconds of disjointed powerplay time

True, but he brings a much more steady presence...

What if during practices or games in general, raymond is watching kane and learning from him how he QB's a powerplay...so then our franchise winger is learning from the greatest american born winger? I mean, if Raymond can get to 60% of kane's production and have his steady presence, I'll enjoy another 2-3 years of kane.

Just because kane takes time away from other players does not mean it isn't going to be beneficial for the young kids. I am more confident that yzerman was happy with signing kane and taking that risk because his iq and mentorship to a player like raymond would be insane. Zetterberg and Datsyuk had guys like shanahan, fedorov, hull, to learn from and they were taking ice time away from d/z. Why can't raymond have kane?

 

[norrisnick]

True, but he brings a much more steady presence...

What if during practices or games in general, raymond is watching kane and learning from him how he QB's a powerplay...so then our franchise winger is learning from the greatest american born winger? I mean, if Raymond can get to 60% of kane's production and have his steady presence, I'll enjoy another 2-3 years of kane.

Just because kane takes time away from other players does not mean it isn't going to be beneficial for the young kids. I am more confident that yzerman was happy with signing kane and taking that risk because his iq and mentorship to a player like raymond would be insane. Zetterberg and Datsyuk had guys like shanahan, fedorov, hull, to learn from and they were taking ice time away from d/z. Why can't raymond have kane?

Career production? Ray was already at 60% of Kane's year to year offense as a rookie. And his non-offensive value is already higher than Kane's ever was.

Style-wise the kid that would most benefit from an up close and personal view of Kane is probably Berggren. Who can't be on the roster because Kane is...

 

[Detroit Knights]

Career production? Ray was already at 60% of Kane's year to year offense as a rookie. And his non-offensive value is already higher than Kane's ever was.

Style-wise the kid that would most benefit from an up close and personal view of Kane is probably Berggren. Who can't be on the roster because Kane is...

right so if raymond is that good and can get to that level of production without kane, let's try to imagine what it would be like if raymond was able to learn from the guy...

you always love to bring up berggren and bringing up the kids, but how did that fare for buffalo and edmonton for a decade?

In the preseason, berggren did not show he could outlast anyone in the top 6. He is a top 6 player and if he stays in the bottom 6 he is useless and under utilized. So he is stuck. I would punt perron for berggren if that means to keep perron out of the top 6, but berggren couldn't get it done. I would stop looking at lalonde and yzerman if i was him and start looking inward. The dude has confidence in the ahl. Watching him play (in highlights only tbf) he has that fire and confidence that he just exudes. But when he gets to the nhl he just doesn't show confidence this year. Could that be because he doesn't play a lot of games, sure probably, but if you want to make the show, then you have to leave no doubt and if you honestly believe that everytime he has come up this year he has left no doubt that he belongs, then there is this really cute bridge over yonder...

He just hasn't shown that he can out-compete others. He has a waiver issue now he has to hurdle. So, he needs to leave no doubt. As much as you hate it, and it is very obvious that you do, lalonde and yzerman are his jury and he has just not proven that he has it. His defense is subpar. You could argue that perron is a defensive liabilty and i agree, but i still don't think berggren is even better than him at this point and i hate every fiber of my being for saying that.

 

[norrisnick]

right so if raymond is that good and can get to that level of production without kane, let's try to imagine what it would be like if raymond was able to learn from the guy...

you always love to bring up berggren and bringing up the kids, but how did that fare for buffalo and edmonton for a decade?

In the preseason, berggren did not show he could outlast anyone in the top 6. He is a top 6 player and if he stays in the bottom 6 he is useless and under utilized. So he is stuck. I would punt perron for berggren if that means to keep perron out of the top 6, but berggren couldn't get it done. I would stop looking at lalonde and yzerman if i was him and start looking inward. The dude has confidence in the ahl. Watching him play (in highlights only tbf) he has that fire and confidence that he just exudes. But when he gets to the nhl he just doesn't show confidence this year. Could that be because he doesn't play a lot of games, sure probably, but if you want to make the show, then you have to leave no doubt and if you honestly believe that everytime he has come up this year he has left no doubt that he belongs, then there is this really cute bridge over yonder...

He just hasn't shown that he can out-compete others. He has a waiver issue now he has to hurdle. So, he needs to leave no doubt. As much as you hate it, and it is very obvious that you do, lalonde and yzerman are his jury and he has just not proven that he has it. His defense is subpar. You could argue that perron is a defensive liabilty and i agree, but i still don't think berggren is even better than him at this point and i hate every fiber of my being for saying that.

There is a vast difference between 8 active roster players from the last 5 drafts and 2.

That and the idea that the bottom 6 needs to be talentless plugs is beyond outdated. It's the same tired argument as "everyone else has a goon or two in the 4th line, we need them too!"

And I'd love to see how productive Kane would be on a line with Kostin and Czarnik getting 10 minutes with zero PP time. Expecting magic from Berggren with his NHL usage is insanity. And yet he still had a point in every one of his last three NHL games...

 

[Detroit Knights]

There is a vast difference between 8 active roster players from the last 5 drafts and 2.

That and the idea that the bottom 6 needs to be talentless plugs is beyond outdated. It's the same tired argument as "everyone else has a goon or two in the 4th line, we need them too!"

So you are moving the goal posts now by adding in this goon comment. I never said that nor do i think it, so it really doesn't apply. Talentless plugs makes no sense either because I don't really think we have a bottom 6 of talentless plugs. I think we could all agree that we would want others there, but talentless? If that's the case then lace em up and get out there and help us out.

And I'd love to see how productive Kane would be on a line with Kostin and Czarnik getting 10 minutes with zero PP time. Expecting magic from Berggren with his NHL usage is insanity. And yet he still had a point in every one of his last three NHL games...

I don't understand the ricochet shot on czarnik. He plays a role and plays it effectively and well.

Regardless, I think Kane would actually pull out a lot more talent out of czarnik and kostin than berggren could. Berggren is along for the ride, he isn't calling the plays, theres a difference. Let's not sit here and act like Berggren scored some amazing goals in his last two that i can remember. One was a rebound that went straight to his stick, so if he doesn't bury that then he is "just another talentless plug". Then another one is in a guys feet and he whacks the guys feet and it happens to go in (kind of like the kane goal in winnipeg last night, so if you give him praise for that, then you're shooting yourself in the foot here).

He tries to shield the puck and it never works, he always gets bounced off of it. He's hesitant in the corners and often gives up position to the other team. He waits too long to take his shot and the other team closes in on him (he has gotten better at this tbf). He has the foot speed, but lacks the defensive IQ but tries to make up for it with his high offensive IQ. That's the crux of it because lalonde and yzerman can see that like anyone else can. It is glaringly obvious. Take off the blinders and watch from the opposing sides view. I would wager that if he focused only on defense for 3 weeks in GR and put up halfway decent points (nothing close to what he is capable of but if we want to put a percentage on it let's go with 40% of what he would have gotten normally?), he would get a call up after we traded some of the "talentless plugs" and he'd be a mainstay on the roster. Once he plants his feet in the ground in the nhl, then he can go back to being a defensively inept player like he is now but we will all give him a slight pass because he has the ability to put up 60-70 points a season.

Now, if berggren scores goals like he did last night(?) in the AHL from the top of the right circle in the NHL or the one pass he did a week or so ago where he feathered it cross ice in the o-zone to edvinsson for the PPG (i believe), then we can talk. But sitting here and saying that berggren is amazing because he got two lucky goals that any of the "talentless plugs" could have done is a stretch.

Keep all of this in mind when I say that I really like berggren and think he could be a star in this league, with a bare minimum of 40 points a season that you can write in stone every year.

 

[gritdash60]

Kane is what i hope Raymond will one day be. Anyone talking shit about Kane is just looking at the boxscore and not the games, the way the dude picks up bad passes and how he never gives a bad pass is something i would love a lot of Wings players to learn. Now i bet some Kane-hater will find a pass from powerplay where it wasn't exactly on the tape of Ghostisbehere(who shouldnt be on PP1), and him losing it resulting in a opponent breakaway. Well if ghost had the hands of Kane, it wouldn't have been a bad pass, just a regular one which he could handle.

All in all what im trying to say is, anyone saying Kane was a bad signing is so lost it doesn't even make sense enough to me that im gonna argue it. And if he is "tradebait" it's because Wings had so many injuries that the couldn't ice a competetive team to push for the playoffs despite having great depth. OR the other players in the lineup just didn't have it.

What im most worried about is post-injury Larkin, he is a hell of player even at 50% but right now i don't see the same Larkin than before the injury. And i don't blaim him, what he said out loud about the league not protecting players is great. How many Nolan Patricks do we need to see before the headhunting is over?

Edit: 2minutes while MacKinnon is talking shit, didn't know he ended a career now did he?

 

[norrisnick]

So you are moving the goal posts now by adding in this goon comment. I never said that nor do i think it, so it really doesn't apply. Talentless plugs makes no sense either because I don't really think we have a bottom 6 of talentless plugs. I think we could all agree that we would want others there, but talentless? If that's the case then lace em up and get out there and help us out.

I don't understand the ricochet shot on czarnik. He plays a role and plays it effectively and well.

Regardless, I think Kane would actually pull out a lot more talent out of czarnik and kostin than berggren could. Berggren is along for the ride, he isn't calling the plays, theres a difference. Let's not sit here and act like Berggren scored some amazing goals in his last two that i can remember. One was a rebound that went straight to his stick, so if he doesn't bury that then he is "just another talentless plug". Then another one is in a guys feet and he whacks the guys feet and it happens to go in (kind of like the kane goal in winnipeg last night, so if you give him praise for that, then you're shooting yourself in the foot here).

He tries to shield the puck and it never works, he always gets bounced off of it. He's hesitant in the corners and often gives up position to the other team. He waits too long to take his shot and the other team closes in on him (he has gotten better at this tbf). He has the foot speed, but lacks the defensive IQ but tries to make up for it with his high offensive IQ. That's the crux of it because lalonde and yzerman can see that like anyone else can. It is glaringly obvious. Take off the blinders and watch from the opposing sides view. I would wager that if he focused only on defense for 3 weeks in GR and put up halfway decent points (nothing close to what he is capable of but if we want to put a percentage on it let's go with 40% of what he would have gotten normally?), he would get a call up after we traded some of the "talentless plugs" and he'd be a mainstay on the roster. Once he plants his feet in the ground in the nhl, then he can go back to being a defensively inept player like he is now but we will all give him a slight pass because he has the ability to put up 60-70 points a season.

Now, if berggren scores goals like he did last night(?) in the AHL from the top of the right circle in the NHL or the one pass he did a week or so ago where he feathered it cross ice in the o-zone to edvinsson for the PPG (i believe), then we can talk. But sitting here and saying that berggren is amazing because he got two lucky goals that any of the "talentless plugs" could have done is a stretch.

Keep all of this in mind when I say that I really like berggren and think he could be a star in this league, with a bare minimum of 40 points a season that you can write in stone every year.

I'm not moving the goalposts. I'm making an analogy. The idea that you don't want offensive-oriented players in the bottom 6 is as outdated and silly as the argument of the 80s to early 00s that you want a goon or two on the 4th line.

Czarnik does nothing well. He's just there.

Kane wouldn't get shit out of those players. It's taken him 8 games to get a goal out of Debrincat.

Bergie needs to get PP ice time to be able to make nice plays on the PP...

Sample sizes are equally Henkka-sized, however...

 

[Detroit Knights]

I'm not moving the goalposts. I'm making an analogy. The idea that you don't want offensive-oriented in the bottom 6 is as outdated and silly as the argument of the 80s to early 00s that you want a goon or two on the 4th line.

Czarnik does nothing well. He's just there.

Kane wouldn't get shit out of those players. It's taken him 8 games to get a goal out of Debrincat.

Bergie needs to get PP ice time to be able to make nice plays on the PP...

Sample sizes are equally Henkka-sized, however...
View attachment 788093

ah okay so you believe that berggren given the same opportunity as kane with much higher level of competition, of which berggren has proven that he has never been able to handle well, will obviously keep up a 5.3 GF/60 at ES?

Your takes are wild, just as much as you assume mine are and that is fine, but I really want you to confirm that you do or do not think berggren could keep up on kane's level if roles were reversed and keep that 5.3 GF/60 at ES.

Do you also see that CF% at ES? Kane is playing much tougher competition at ES yet is playing a lot better than berggren is playing against the worst players on the opposition? Who woulda thunk it..

Bergie doesn't get PP minutes because we have 10 other players on PP1 and PP2 that are just better than him...I guess that makes sense to do that right? Or do we just want to throw him out there because we are a charity and help the needy or are we not letting him play because we need our best player to play in the position? If he were to play, he would be on PP2 and get essentially no ice time anyways because we don't have pp2 out there barely ever anyways. Unless, of course, you want bergie out there instead of kane or dbc. Which is hilarious because I honestly have no idea how you would answer that question which is confounding and, again, hilarious all at the same time.

So i will say it again to my original point, you want a defensively inept player that has the possibility of scoring and most likely being out of position most of the time to get increased minutes where he could randomly acquire the knowledge skills and abilities to take on the top 6's of other teams? Really?

It's obvious you just hate veterans to hate veterans. Most of the time that is a perfectly fine position to take, especially given the red wings history that last decade, but we are talking about patrick kane vs jonatan berggren here. Are we really being serious? Yeah, Kane is taking away berggren's ability to play in the top 6...double darn?! Let's call our union representatives to whine and bi*ch that life ain't fair because the better worker is getting more hours on the job.

 

[ricky0034]

reminds me of the AA per 60 stats that got thrown around here back in the day

except even worse because the sample sizes are much smaller and involve a guy shooting 25%

it's hilarious to watch someones narrative shift from "Kane will never come back from his injury and is done as a player" to "Berggren is better anyways because of these per 60 numbers" in real time though

 

[letsgowings9999]

I hope they don't trade Kane, but rather extend him. His experience is invaluable for the youngsters, and he is still pretty damn good. Need players like that on the team, even if they are not part of the future in which we hope to contend.

I don't mind if he wants to come back but we should trade him and make it known we want him back but that 1st + can be used in a package deal to land an important piece to help next season and beyond

If he doesnt return,sucks but oh well. Hope it doesn't happen but we'll look like idiots if we keep sliding and he has ship injury game 76. We gotta do what's best for the team

 

[letsgowings9999]

right so if raymond is that good and can get to that level of production without kane, let's try to imagine what it would be like if raymond was able to learn from the guy...

you always love to bring up berggren and bringing up the kids, but how did that fare for buffalo and edmonton for a decade?

In the preseason, berggren did not show he could outlast anyone in the top 6. He is a top 6 player and if he stays in the bottom 6 he is useless and under utilized. So he is stuck. I would punt perron for berggren if that means to keep perron out of the top 6, but berggren couldn't get it done. I would stop looking at lalonde and yzerman if i was him and start looking inward. The dude has confidence in the ahl. Watching him play (in highlights only tbf) he has that fire and confidence that he just exudes. But when he gets to the nhl he just doesn't show confidence this year. Could that be because he doesn't play a lot of games, sure probably, but if you want to make the show, then you have to leave no doubt and if you honestly believe that everytime he has come up this year he has left no doubt that he belongs, then there is this really cute bridge over yonder...

He just hasn't shown that he can out-compete others. He has a waiver issue now he has to hurdle. So, he needs to leave no doubt. As much as you hate it, and it is very obvious that you do, lalonde and yzerman are his jury and he has just not proven that he has it. His defense is subpar. You could argue that perron is a defensive liabilty and i agree, but i still don't think berggren is even better than him at this point and i hate every fiber of my being for saying that.

Let's not pretend berggren had a shot to make this team when yzerman made all those countless moves. Same for edvinsson

Love yzerman but his we'll make moves for players who deserve to be on the team was nonsense. Both those guys should be on the team now. Likes of maata,Petry,sprong,perron etc.. have no future in detroit,likely as soon as next season for all

 

[Detroit Knights]

Let's not pretend berggren had a shot to make this team when yzerman made all those countless moves. Same for berggren

Love yzerman but his we'll make moves for players who deserve to be on the team was nonsense. Both those guys should be on the team now. Likes of maata,Petry,sprong,perron etc.. have no future in detroit,likely as soon as next season for all

I don't disagree with this, but if this was two years ago and everything happened the exact same way to raymond, raymond finds a way onto this team.

Berggren just doesn't have that dawg in em

 

[norrisnick]

ah okay so you believe that berggren given the same opportunity as kane with much higher level of competition, of which berggren has proven that he has never been able to handle well, will obviously keep up a 5.3 GF/60 at ES?

Your takes are wild, just as much as you assume mine are and that is fine, but I really want you to confirm that you do or do not think berggren could keep up on kane's level if roles were reversed and keep that 5.3 GF/60 at ES.

Do you also see that CF% at ES? Kane is playing much tougher competition at ES yet is playing a lot better than berggren is playing against the worst players on the opposition? Who woulda thunk it..

Bergie doesn't get PP minutes because we have 10 other players on PP1 and PP2 that are just better than him...I guess that makes sense to do that right? Or do we just want to throw him out there because we are a charity and help the needy or are we not letting him play because we need our best player to play in the position? If he were to play, he would be on PP2 and get essentially no ice time anyways because we don't have pp2 out there barely ever anyways. Unless, of course, you want bergie out there instead of kane or dbc. Which is hilarious because I honestly have no idea how you would answer that question which is confounding and, again, hilarious all at the same time.

View attachment 788097

So i will say it again to my original point, you want a defensively inept player that has the possibility of scoring and most likely being out of position most of the time to get increased minutes where he could randomly acquire the knowledge skills and abilities to take on the top 6's of other teams? Really?

It's obvious you just hate veterans to hate veterans. Most of the time that is a perfectly fine position to take, especially given the red wings history that last decade, but we are talking about patrick kane vs jonatan berggren here. Are we really being serious? Yeah, Kane is taking away berggren's ability to play in the top 6...double darn?! Let's call our union representatives to whine and bi*ch that life ain't fair because the better worker is getting more hours on the job.

Why does he need to keep up a 5.3 GF/60? I think he'd comfortably stay above a 1.5 GF/60...

I mean... all the descriptors you're tossing out apply to Kane. IE " you want a defensively inept player that has the possibility of scoring and most likely being out of position most of the time"

I don't hate veterans just to hate veterans. I hate the decision to not give quality young players icetime when they are ready to play in the NHL. That way that experience will give them the knowledge to take on the top 6 of the opposition. Keeping them in the AHL is hoping for them to "randomly" acquire said knowledge...

It's the same situation as Ed. Right now he's just getting AHL experience to fine-tune being an AHL defenseman. If you want these kids to learn how to play NHL hockey they need to be playing NHL hockey. They aren't going to get it anywhere else.

 

[letsgowings9999]

I don't disagree with this, but if this was two years ago and everything happened the exact same way to raymond, raymond finds a way onto this team.

Berggren just doesn't have that dawg in em

Maybe buy raymond was also a 4th overall pick and those will always get preferential treatment over later picked guys. Dman always take longer to arrive

I think the dawg stuff is nonsense if he puts up points who gives a shit . I seen some comments prior, veleno is on the 2nd ppl unit with 12 pts in 32 games.

f***s sake man dont tell me berggren wouldn't do better. Like joe but I don't really see a longterm future here unless hes content being a 4th liner which I dont see happening. He had nice stretches and stuff but I dont see him being as talented offensively as berggren and wont get as much pts. Berggren is a good passer,throw him in with some shooters rather than 4th line duties .

Saw something about his goals he got well kane just got a garbage rebound goal ,nothing pretty. Who cares a goals a goal you gotta know where to be to get opportunities. Play the kids,otherwise this team will never get better

Why does he need to keep up a 5.3 GF/60? I think he'd comfortably stay above a 1.5 GF/60...

I mean... all the descriptors you're tossing out apply to Kane. IE " you want a defensively inept player that has the possibility of scoring and most likely being out of position most of the time"

I don't hate veterans just to hate veterans. I hate the decision to not give quality young players icetime when they are ready to play in the NHL. That way that experience will give them the knowledge to take on the top 6 of the opposition. Keeping them in the AHL is hoping for them to "randomly" acquire said knowledge...

It's the same situation as Ed. Right now he's just getting AHL experience to fine-tune being an AHL defenseman. If you want these kids to learn how to play NHL hockey they need to be playing NHL hockey. They aren't going to get it anywhere else.

Exactly. this team will never win Until the kids start playing and getting nhl experience and outside of lucas and Moritz theres no one. This teams far away from making noise

 

[Detroit Knights]

Why does he need to keep up a 5.3 GF/60? I think he'd comfortably stay above a 1.5 GF/60...

I mean... all the descriptors you're tossing out apply to Kane. IE " you want a defensively inept player that has the possibility of scoring and most likely being out of position most of the time"

I don't hate veterans just to hate veterans. I hate the decision to not give quality young players icetime when they are ready to play in the NHL. That way that experience will give them the knowledge to take on the top 6 of the opposition. Keeping them in the AHL is hoping for them to "randomly" acquire said knowledge...

It's the same situation as Ed. Right now he's just getting AHL experience to fine-tune being an AHL defenseman. If you want these kids to learn how to play NHL hockey they need to be playing NHL hockey. They aren't going to get it anywhere else.

kane doesn't get out of position nearly as much as berggren does and as you've stated multiple times, when/if berggren is playing, he barely plays at all, so to add more minutes to that is crazy.

In regards to ed, i thought the plan was to put him in GR because of his shoulder surgery and the time it takes to get that to 100%. Let him get his legs beneath him. Then find a way to get him into the roster if he is still performing, of which he obviously is. What I wanted was this to happen then trade ghost by thanksgiving to insert ed in. Then we signed petry and that all got jumbled up.

I don't see how yzerman doesn't make a big trade to ship some pieces out for ed to join the roster full time. That would probably be closer to the trade deadline or late january. So, until then, there isn't much that can happen so when we keep bringing it up, its just an exercise in futility.

I will say, I think we may be trading maata and walman by trade deadline. maata would be used for hanifin and walman will be used for something else like a pick or part of a goalie package to the western conference. Then, our left side is hanifin - ed - chiarot and that isn't a bad left side at all. I'd miss walman but the honeymoon might feel like it's ending soon.

 

[Detroit Knights]

Maybe buy raymond was also a 4th overall pick and those will always get preferential treatment over later picked guys. Dman always take longer to arrive

I think the dawg stuff is nonsense if he puts up points who gives a shit . I seen some comments prior, veleno is on the 2nd ppl unit with 12 pts in 32 games.

f***s sake man dont tell me berggren wouldn't do better. Like joe but I don't really see a longterm future here unless hes content being a 4th liner which I dont see happening. He had nice stretches and stuff but I dont see him being as talented offensively as berggren and wont get as much pts. Berggren is a good passer,throw him in with some shooters rather than 4th line duties .

Veleno is also the center and slot guy that can handle being hit while berggren folds faster than a lawn chair. (i'd also rather have rasmussen out there instead of veleno, but that's just me)

Berggren's spot would need to be on the flanks, so that means you are getting rid of raymond or perron or sprong? For the powerplay to work, you need a stable presence and as much as i absolutely hate to say it, perron is that stability, like kane brings. Raymond is the playmaking threat, so you can't get rid of him. Sprong is literally the sniper on the pp2 (and should be used a lot more than he has been) so you can't really get rid of him. Raymond and berggren would be playing the exact same type of position and you don't need 2 of those guys out there because then it turns into a pass-fest where no one wants to shoot and create chances.... something that has plagued our powerplay for years.

Saw something about his goals he got well kane just got a garbage rebound goal ,nothing pretty. Who cares a goals a goal you gotta know where to be to get opportunities. Play the kids,otherwise this team will never get better

That was my point. Berggren had the exact same goal so giving him credit but discounting kane makes no sense. Yes, play the kids, i actually do agree, but it goes back to the beginning of all this nonsense: berggren just does not play defense and is soft in the corners. You can be soft in the corners, but if your defensive iq is just not there, then being soft is a bad trait. EDIT: for instance, kane is soft in the corners because he has a bad hip, but he makes up for it by trying to get into a good defensive position for when the puck squirts out. Berggren doesn't do this. What he does is allows the opposition to take control of the puck in the corner (again that isn't the complete issue) and then proceeds to try and take it away from the opponent and never wins because of his softness. Kane will at least attempt to get the puck first before opposition does, but when that fails, he backs off when he gets help to survey the situation and get in a better, or tactical for a lack of better words, position. Shout-out jocko.

Berggren coming down the wing on an offensive rush? Sign me up all day. He'll get the pass in a much better position than most can on our team; but if he can't play defense, then how can we capitalize on the offensive transition if there is no transition? Yes he is better than kostin and mostly better than sprong but some could argue that may be a tossup, but berggren is not good in a bottom 6 role. We don't have the time or luxury right now in this part of the season to experiment with berggren in the top 6. He has what 5 more games left before waiver eligibility screws us. So he has to make his statement in 4 games, in a top 6 role, and bump the guys we already have up there? I just don't see that happening. Now, if we are firmly out of a playoff position come march, then bring him up, sell off whoever you need to and get him on the roster because next year he should be on the main roster, at that point.

 

[letsgowings9999]

Veleno is also the center and slot guy that can handle being hit while berggren folds faster than a lawn chair. (i'd also rather have rasmussen out there instead of veleno, but that's just me)

Berggren's spot would need to be on the flanks, so that means you are getting rid of raymond or perron or sprong? For the powerplay to work, you need a stable presence and as much as i absolutely hate to say it, perron is that stability, like kane brings. Raymond is the playmaking threat, so you can't get rid of him. Sprong is literally the sniper on the pp2 (and should be used a lot more than he has been) so you can't really get rid of him. Raymond and berggren would be playing the exact same type of position and you don't need 2 of those guys out there because then it turns into a pass-fest where no one wants to shoot and create chances.... something that has plagued our powerplay for years.

That was my point. Berggren had the exact same goal so giving him credit but discounting kane makes no sense. Yes, play the kids, i actually do agree, but it goes back to the beginning of all this nonsense: berggren just does not play defense and is soft in the corners. You can be soft in the corners, but if your defensive iq is just not there, then being soft is a bad trait.

Berggren coming down the wing on an offensive rush? Sign me up all day. He'll get the pass in a much better position than most can on our team; but if he can't play defense, then how can we capitalize on the offensive transition if there is no transition? Yes he is better than kostin and mostly better than sprong but some could argue that may be a tossup, but berggren is not good in a bottom 6 role. We don't have the time or luxury right now in this part of the season to experiment with berggren in the top 6. He has what 5 more games left before waiver eligibility screws us. So he has to make his statement in 4 games, in a top 6 role, and bump the guys we already have up there? I just don't see that happening. Now, if we are firmly out of a playoff position come march, then bring him up, sell off whoever you need to and get him on the roster because next year he should be on the main roster, at that point.

Veleno is garbage offensively that's up to the coach to change shit up. You can talk about berggren folding all you want but hes a good offensive player and thate what you want on the ppl

Move compher 2nd ppl C remove veleno and fit in berggren. Bet we'd score more goals. Going off what I see on dailyfaceoff ... just noticed perron was out I forgot he was suspended lol ... it's a sign,trade him sooner and put in berggren like I previously said

Fabbri larkin kane
Debrincat gostisbehere

Berggren compher raymond
Sprong seider

Anyways point is hes a good playmaker with good offensive abilities. He'd definitely help produce goals on the ppl

We need guys who can help score goals we shouldnt have to have 12 guys on who can play defense upfront cause guarantee most of those guys will get under 40 pts and we wont win squat. Berggren might never be a selke winner but doesnt mean he wont forecheck more more games he plays and gains confidence

Some guys are just better in the nhl. Soderblom for instance has been meh this season but in the nhl with better players I can see him getting 15-20 next season

Anyways putting him on a 4th line is pointless but I'd be finding a spot on the 3rd with ppl opportunities

He hads been making a statement. he producing every game in the ahl d when he was called up. Had 15 goals as a rookie. We need to make room for him and edvinsson this team is going nowhere this season

 

[norrisnick]

We don't have the time or luxury right now in this part of the season to experiment with berggren in the top 6.

The Wings are a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 7 years and is coming out of a full rebuild. Experimenting with what kids can do in key roles should be the one thing we have time for.

 

[Detroit Knights]

Veleno is garbage offensively that's up to the coach to change shit up. You can talk about berggren folding all you want but hes a good offensive player and thate what you want on the ppl

Well if he folds after getting hit when he has the puck then the puck goes bye bye...I never said berggren is a bad offensive player, I think I have said the exact opposite in absolutely every interaction I have said with anybody on this forum.

Move compher 2nd ppl C remove veleno and fit in berggren. Bet we'd score more goals. Going off what I see on dailyfaceoff ... just noticed perron was out I forgot he was suspended lol ... it's a sign,trade him sooner and put in berggren like I previously said

Fabbri larkin kane
Debrincat gostisbehere

Berggren compher raymond
Sprong seider

So when larkin or compher inevitably get waived out of the circle (seems to happen a lot these days) who takes the draw? What lalonde is doing is guaranteeing a center taking the faceoff and that is why compher is on pp1 with larkin. Not to mention (but I have mentioned it a few times, probably with others) we never play pp2 out there. So, we are going to have fabbri out there instead of compher? Compher also plays a pretty good role for top of the slot and he switches off with larkin who plays the behind the net spot...fabbri wouldn't do well with either of those imo.

I'm not even the biggest veleno guy but when he is on pp2, he not the reason the puck isn't going in. The problem becomes them having 20-40 seconds of pp2 time which doesn't give enough time for a rhythm. Again, I'd rather have rasmussen there than veleno but whatever.

Anyways point is hes a good playmaker with good offensive abilities. He'd definitely help produce goals on the ppl

as i said above, i agree

We need guys who can help score goals we shouldnt have to have 12 guys on who can play defense upfront cause guarantee most of those guys will get under 40 pts and we wont win squat. Berggren might never be a selke winner but doesnt mean he wont forecheck more more games he plays and gains confidence

he never looks like he actually forechecks with purpose though. Even last year he didn't do it and he played a lot of games didn't he?

Some guys are just better in the nhl. Soderblom for instance has been meh this season but in the nhl with better players I can see him getting 15-20 next season

Don't disagree here either. Soderblom could cause issues for many. I think he would take sprong's spot if we don't resign him.

Anyways putting him on a 4th line is pointless but I'd be finding a spot on the 3rd with ppl opportunities

Absolutely agree...again. He is a top 6 player but needs to round out his defensive abilities. DBC is all offense ability, but he has shown that when push comes to shove, he plays defense and is not terrible at it.

He hads been making a statement. he producing every game in the ahl d when he was called up. Had 15 goals as a rookie.

Yes I agree....lol. The problem is, as I've said it before, he has all the confidence in the world in the AHL. His goal a few nights ago on the 2-on-1 with shine(?) was magnificent. But that just doesn't happen in the nhl when he is there, including last year minus a couple of his 15.

We need to make room for him and edvinsson this team is going nowhere this season

We will probably trade two defenders by trade deadline if yzerman wants to go for the playoffs. If he doesn't, then just have to wait for injuries. Just so we are clear, I do not agree with the later part of this statement I made at all, but it's probably whats going to happen.

The Wings are a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 7 years and is coming out of a full rebuild. Experimenting with what kids can do in key roles should be the one thing we have time for.

And if you read the rest of the statement, you would have read this, further explaining my position and how I would have done things in the latter part of the season:

We don't have the time or luxury right now in this part of the season to experiment with berggren in the top 6. He has what 5 more games left before waiver eligibility screws us. So he has to make his statement in 4 games, in a top 6 role, and bump the guys we already have up there? I just don't see that happening. Now, if we are firmly out of a playoff position come march, then bring him up, sell off whoever you need to and get him on the roster because next year he should be on the main roster, at that point.

 

[norrisnick]

And if you read the rest of the statement, you would have read this, further explaining my position and how I would have done things in the latter part of the season:

It doesn't matter if we are in or out of the playoff race. We aren't competing for anything this year, even if we squeak in. The entire focus should be on building and improving what we have for the future. It's why Kane was nothing more than a distraction for this team. He's not gonna be around when we are ready to make a run. So why waste the time with him?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

It doesn't matter if we are in or out of the playoff race. We aren't competing for anything this year, even if we squeak in. The entire focus should be on building and improving what we have for the future. It's why Kane was nothing more than a distraction for this team. He's not gonna be around when we are ready to make a run. So why waste the time with him?

1. Kane is not the problem
2. It's incredibly important for young athletes to play in meaningful games...that is not the same as expecting or demanding they win a championship.

If however playing meaningful games is not the goal, then we should be tanking for highest draft picks possible

 

[norrisnick]

1. Kane is not the problem
2. It's incredibly important for young athletes to play in meaningful games...that is not the same as expecting or demanding they win a championship.

If however playing meaningful games is not the goal, then we should be tanking for highest draft picks possible

Kane in and of himself is not a problem, no. He's just one of many superfluous players that aren't part of the future that are delaying the development of players that could be.

Some would argue that NHL games are meaningful for kids that are just making the jump. The time for tanking is done. We've still got five first round picks that aren't in the lineup. Dumpstering the team for when they do make the jump is not the play. That is the Buffalo/Edmonton situation described above.

 

[letsgowings9999]

Well if he folds after getting hit when he has the puck then the puck goes bye bye...I never said berggren is a bad offensive player, I think I have said the exact opposite in absolutely every interaction I have said with anybody on this forum.


So when larkin or compher inevitably get waived out of the circle (seems to happen a lot these days) who takes the draw? What lalonde is doing is guaranteeing a center taking the faceoff and that is why compher is on pp1 with larkin. Not to mention (but I have mentioned it a few times, probably with others) we never play pp2 out there. So, we are going to have fabbri out there instead of compher? Compher also plays a pretty good role for top of the slot and he switches off with larkin who plays the behind the net spot...fabbri wouldn't do well with either of those imo.

I'm not even the biggest veleno guy but when he is on pp2, he not the reason the puck isn't going in. The problem becomes them having 20-40 seconds of pp2 time which doesn't give enough time for a rhythm. Again, I'd rather have rasmussen there than veleno but whatever.


as i said above, i agree

he never looks like he actually forechecks with purpose though. Even last year he didn't do it and he played a lot of games didn't he?

Don't disagree here either. Soderblom could cause issues for many. I think he would take sprong's spot if we don't resign him.

Absolutely agree...again. He is a top 6 player but needs to round out his defensive abilities. DBC is all offense ability, but he has shown that when push comes to shove, he plays defense and is not terrible at it.

Yes I agree....lol. The problem is, as I've said it before, he has all the confidence in the world in the AHL. His goal a few nights ago on the 2-on-1 with shine(?) was magnificent. But that just doesn't happen in the nhl when he is there, including last year minus a couple of his 15.


We will probably trade two defenders by trade deadline if yzerman wants to go for the playoffs. If he doesn't, then just have to wait for injuries. Just so we are clear, I do not agree with the later part of this statement I made at all, but it's probably whats going to happen.


And if you read the rest of the statement, you would have read this, further explaining my position and how I would have done things in the latter part of the season:

Ya sorry this gonna come out bad cause I dont know how do the separate nice quote stuff lol

Maybe we should play the 2nd ppl more then if were having problems scoring. It's not a bad ppl when you throw out seider and raymond. Rearrange it with compher. Fabbri had played C role at times he can play the occasional draw if needed

Veleno will never be a point producer. We can have 1 minute ppl time and hed have 15 pts in 32 games instead of 12. berggren is a good playmaker if he can pass the puck across to a raymond on the ppl and he shoots well get goals . Problem is these guys have to shoot more instead of passing for 60 seconds. I see it in countless games, endless passing


Berggren was 22 last year and as a rookie popped 15 on a bad team, I'm not worried about his defensive game. Hes got tons of time to improve it and the coach can bench his ass a few shifts if need be to send a message. Point is he doesnt have to be this great 2 way guy so long as he puts up pts which

Yzerman's made sure to just draft 2 way guys we can afford a few guys who can produce offensively without being a selke nominee

If he wants to make the playoffs he'll trade 2 defensemen?? You mean trade for a dman? Anyways he should be making room for these guys we have 0 chance at the playoffs , it's a pipe dream

It doesn't matter if we are in or out of the playoff race. We aren't competing for anything this year, even if we squeak in. The entire focus should be on building and improving what we have for the future. It's why Kane was nothing more than a distraction for this team. He's not gonna be around when we are ready to make a run. So why waste the time with him?

Agreed

But For kane if anything he'll be good trade bait at the deadline if hes moved. Bring us more picks or we can make another big move like we did with debrincat. Preferably use the picks in a package deal for someone younger with upside

Maybe like a kakko if rangers decide to move on or someone else 21-23 range

1. Kane is not the problem
2. It's incredibly important for young athletes to play in meaningful games...that is not the same as expecting or demanding they win a championship.

If however playing meaningful games is not the goal, then we should be tanking for highest draft picks possible

Sure its important for the young players to play meaningful games but the problem is outside seider raymond most of these guys wont be around longterm when we start winning . Some ppl might not even like to hear this but I'm not 100% sure larkin will be either.

If yzerman was sure he would have gave him a full no trade clause not just the first 5 years I believe ,possibly 6

This team will win again when we start playing kids and they become important guys for the future. Edvinsson and berggren should be up asap and we should get some looks later at some guys

And gradually add a few more next season in soderblom and possibly mazur.

Time to add some guys it wont look pretty if we add kasper danielson pelikka lombardi all at once. Time to slowly put them in