Kadri player discssion thread.

[Deez Nuts]

I've been a Kadri supporter for the most part until now...After all these years I'm just not seeing any progress going forward...In fact he has digressed since the shortened season. I don't think he is worth a big, long term contract...That could change of course but I doubt it...He's a mid tier 2nd line center or a high end third liner at this stage of his career.

It amazes me how people continue to go to bat for Kadri and insist Babcock will be a good influence/teacher for him. Kadri has had problems with every coach he has ever had and also issues with every GM dating back to junior. And people think he is suddenly going to change? Babcock is the most demanding coach in the NHL. It is more likely that there be will friction between the two sides than a positive effect. People don't change......Kadri is who he is. People go back to his season where he was in better shape and had a head start on the rest of the NHL. He played on the third line and scored on third liners and bottom pairing defence. You put him against top C's and he is out of his league. This guy is a decent 2nd line C with baggage and a issues we don't even now about. Hopefully he will be shipped by the trade deadline, I have never been a fan and considering his contract status It is clear that Leaf managment are on the fence with regard to keeping this guy around.

 

[ULF_55]

I've been a Kadri supporter for the most part until now...After all these years I'm just not seeing any progress going forward...In fact he has digressed since the shortened season. I don't think he is worth a big, long term contract...That could change of course but I doubt it...He's a mid tier 2nd line center or a high end third liner at this stage of his career.

There is nothing wrong with being a 2nd./3rd. line center whether that is Holland/Kadri/Bozak.

But we have to accept reality, we aren't talking about 21-22 year old players here that look to be top line players.

As some have mentioned, these are placeholders for hopefully a couple players who the scouting staff has made the right projection on.

Can you imagine how much press a real top end player would get on this forum?

 

[Stephen]

It amazes me how people continue to go to bat for Kadri and insist Babcock will be a good influence/teacher for him. Kadri has had problems with every coach he has ever had and also issues with every GM dating back to junior. And people think he is suddenly going to change? Babcock is the most demanding coach in the NHL. It is more likely that there be will friction between the two sides than a positive effect. People don't change......Kadri is who he is. People go back to his season where he was in better shape and had a head start on the rest of the NHL. He played on the third line and scored on third liners and bottom pairing defence. You put him against top C's and he is out of his league. This guy is a decent 2nd line C with baggage and a issues we don't even now about. Hopefully he will be shipped by the trade deadline, I have never been a fan and considering his contract status It is clear that Leaf managment are on the fence with regard to keeping this guy around.

Even in a league full of other cliche spewing sports bros, there's something about the way Kadri speaks that hints at a deep fundamental lack of understanding of who he is in the league and what he needs to do to thrive in it.

 

[ULF_55]

Even in a league full of other cliche spewing sports bros, there's something about the way Kadri speaks that hints at a deep fundamental lack of understanding of who he is in the league and what he needs to do to thrive in it.

Maybe it is like a good team that just doesn't look sharp and everyone says they'll turn it on in the playoffs, but they never do turn it on.

Luck, coaches, linemates, every player has them. He's been lucky, some players also have injuries to deal with, he's been healthy, so not all his luck is bad.

 

[Stephen]

To me it seems like the problem is that people draw their conclusions first - based on personal biases, prejudices, etc. - then, while watching the games, try desperately to justify those conclusions.

With some people, it just seems like it doesn't matter what a certain player does, they'll dig and dig, shift goalposts - whatever asinine, disingenuous crap they need to do - to find a reason to complain about and discredit him. They decided in 2009 that they didn't like Kadri, and since then it's just been a constant struggle to rationalize that.

Or maybe it's just the fact that our drafting him wasn't immediately well-received, along with his perceived 'cocky' attitude, etc. etc.

It's the same thing with the people who fell in love with Reimer's 'awh shucks' demeanour and have since done nothing but make excuses for him while slinging mud at Bernier at every opportunity.

This is Kadri's seventh season in the Leafs organization. Other than a 40 game stretch during the lockout shortened season, what has he ever accomplished that should lead anyone to think he wasn't just an okay run of the middle middle six player? He's in that realm of Brayden Schenn, Cody Hodgson (before last season) who-gives-a-crap-about-them top ten pick that really didn't deliver. That's all he is.

 

[Menzinger]

This is Kadri's seventh season in the Leafs organization. Other than a 40 game stretch during the lockout shortened season, what has he ever accomplished that should lead anyone to think he wasn't just an okay run of the middle middle six player? He's in that realm of Brayden Schenn, Cody Hodgson (before last season) who-gives-a-crap-about-them top ten pick that really didn't deliver. That's all he is.

Those comparisons are a bit unfair - or Hodgson really isn't an NHL level player anymore, and Schenn has been incredibly unimpressive other than his last season.

Kadri's has out up reasonably consistent offensive numbers (even if you only consider him to be a 50 point player) alongside very impressive possession numbers.

That kind of player has value and can contribute to future team success, it isn't a "nothing player". Just because he didn't turn into Giroux doesn't mean he's replaceable easily.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Those comparisons are a bit unfair - or Hodgson really isn't an NHL level player anymore, and Schenn has been incredibly unimpressive other than his last season.

Kadri's has out up reasonably consistent offensive numbers (even if you only consider him to be a 50 point player) alongside very impressive possession numbers.

That kind of player has value and can contribute to future team success, it isn't a "nothing player". Just because he didn't turn into Giroux doesn't mean he's replaceable easily.

Yeah, for $4.1m that is ok...ish, but I think he is looking for at least a 50% raise.

I think he will get traded at the trade deadline and that we will keep Bozak as cover for and try and sneak in Nylander.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

To me it seems like the problem is that people will draw their conclusions first - based on personal biases, prejudices, etc. - then, while watching the games, try desperately to justify those conclusions.

Honestly this is the entire problem with the Bozak/Kadri and Reimer/Bernier debate. It's okay or the teams fault when it's one of them and it's because they suck when it's the other.

Kadri hasn't had a great start, some of it is bad luck I think the scoring will come and he's had some defensive laps that have led to goals against.

Bozak has had a slightly better start defensively but was struggling for offence until last night, neither is playing particularly great but you have two sides pretending one is awful while the other is a victim of bad luck.

 

[Gary Nylund]

This is Kadri's seventh season in the Leafs organization. Other than a 40 game stretch during the lockout shortened season, what has he ever accomplished that should lead anyone to think he wasn't just an okay run of the middle middle six player? He's in that realm of Brayden Schenn, Cody Hodgson (before last season) who-gives-a-crap-about-them top ten pick that really didn't deliver. That's all he is.

Middle six? If you say so. I see him as an avg to above avg #2C so I don't think you're giving him enough credit. JMHO.

Editing to add I see that as a level it's hard if not impossible to argue with. Now that we have a real coach, I could see him upping his value. Not saying it's sure to happen but it's a definite possibility.

And in anticipation of further comments, please note I didn't claim he's a true #1C, or that he's as good as Tavares, or that he's almost as good as Zetterberg yadayadayada. He is however better than Bozak, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Menzinger]

Yeah, for $4.1m that is ok...ish, but I think he is looking for at least a 50% raise.

I think he will get traded at the trade deadline and that we will keep Bozak as cover for and try and sneak in Nylander.

Contract comparables would place him more in the 5-5.5 range. I don't think that's an overpayment.

 

[Ovate]

This is Kadri's seventh season in the Leafs organization. Other than a 40 game stretch during the lockout shortened season, what has he ever accomplished that should lead anyone to think he wasn't just an okay run of the middle middle six player? He's in that realm of Brayden Schenn, Cody Hodgson (before last season) who-gives-a-crap-about-them top ten pick that really didn't deliver. That's all he is.

If you're seriously asking that question

The first three years are, you know, development. He did reasonably well on the Knights and Marlies. Nothing to hold against him there.

Then he has a breakout season in 2012-13. Absolutely dominant, near PPG. Obviously going to regress a bit, but blows away expectations.

In 2013-14, he regresses to the mean and gets 50 points in 78 games while playing with Clarkson. Some people are disappointed in that, but it's still "very good 2C" territory. Better than Brayden Schenn ever got while playing with Giroux and Voracek.

Then, last year, his even strength play got even better. But his shooting percentage dropped (random fluctuations happen), and the Leafs collapsed. He can't put it together on the powerplay either, which further hurts him, and is a somewhat valid criticism. Despite all this, he still looks like an average 2C and has better ES production that a guys like Brayden Schenn or Cody Hodgson have ever had. He also has a ~20 game streak under Carlyle where he matched up against top lines with Winnik and Santorelli as his wingers and succeeded. It showed what he can do with defensively responsible wingers. Before and since then, he's never had the opportunity to play with possession drivers. If he has more opportunities to play like that, he'll be "Elite 2C" or "1C on a bad team" territory.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

There is nothing wrong with being a 2nd./3rd. line center whether that is Holland/Kadri/Bozak.

But we have to accept reality, we aren't talking about 21-22 year old players here that look to be top line players.

As some have mentioned, these are placeholders for hopefully a couple players who the scouting staff has made the right projection on.

Can you imagine how much press a real top end player would get on this forum?

I can agree with this. The only thing I'd add is that Kadri has the potential to be an above average 2nd/3rd line centre. Of course it's on him to show that this season, and I really hope he does.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

If you're seriously asking that question

The first three years are, you know, development. He did reasonably well on the Knights and Marlies. Nothing to hold against him there.

Then he has a breakout season in 2012-13. Absolutely dominant, near PPG. Obviously going to regress a bit, but blows away expectations.

In 2013-14, he regresses to the mean and gets 50 points in 78 games while playing with Clarkson. Some people are disappointed in that, but it's still "very good 2C" territory. Better than Brayden Schenn ever got while playing with Giroux and Voracek.

Then, last year, his even strength play got even better. But his shooting percentage dropped (random fluctuations happen), and the Leafs collapsed. He can't put it together on the powerplay either, which further hurts him, and is a somewhat valid criticism. Despite all this, he still looks like an average 2C and has better ES production that a guys like Brayden Schenn or Cody Hodgson have ever had. He also has a ~20 game streak under Carlyle where he matched up against top lines with Winnik and Santorelli as his wingers and succeeded. It showed what he can do with defensively responsible wingers. Before and since then, he's never had the opportunity to play with possession drivers. If he has more opportunities to play like that, he'll be "Elite 2C" or "1C on a bad team" territory.

Strong analysis. Agreed on all counts.

 

[p.l.f.]

-5 so far

 

[Durrr]

-5 so far

Gutless. Trade him.

 

[p.l.f.]

Just given the stats bud lol

 

[Ovate]

Just given the stats bud lol

Just stating facts. Clearly no agenda.

 

[FreeBird]

All this crap about Kadri and Bozak is just that crap, they are both second line centers and until we either trade for one, or promote one from the farm as our #1 center, it doesn't matter, they are both just holding spots for better players and will soon be history.

Their not second line centres on a good team, and as long as their our centres playoffs are remote at best. Doubt either will be able to sustain Babcocks expectations.

 

[LeafsNation75]

-5 so far

If anything plus/minus is the worst stat to use when evaluating a player. For example Kadri lost the faceoff that lead to Montreal's empty net goal and he got a minus for being on the ice.

 

[p.l.f.]

Which means he needs to improve on his faceoffs

 

[LeafsNation75]

Which means he needs to improve on his faceoffs

I agree in that situation with the Goalie pulled he needs to win the faceoff. However if the Leafs get scored on with the empty net don't use Kadri getting a minus in that situation.

 

[yubbers]

If anything plus/minus is the worst stat to use when evaluating a player. For example Kadri lost the faceoff that lead to Montreal's empty net goal and he got a minus for being on the ice.

How many empty netters you think Phil was on for last year?

 

[HellasLEAF]

I really hope plus minus isn't being brought up time and again for our players this year we don't even have an NHL goalie in the net...

 

[IBeL34f]

I didn't get to see the Detroit game, but I've really liked Kadri in both of the home games so far. His faceoffs have looked good (not sure of the actual percentages, but it felt to me like he was winning more than he was losing), and he's been involved in all ends of the ice.

I'd actually like to see him playing with Lupul again. He played a good game with Bozak last night, and he and Naz have had chemistry in the past.

It's too bad that a lot of people will require 70 points or more from him in order to see him as legitimate player in this League, when it's pretty obvious that this group of players will be hard-pressed to give us too much offense without relying on the committee.

His overall game is improving, just like it has the past couple of years, the points might take some time.

 

[Menzinger]

Their not second line centres on a good team, and as long as their our centres playoffs are remote at best. Doubt either will be able to sustain Babcocks expectations.

By what criteria can't Kadri be a top six centre on a good team?