Kadri player discssion thread.

[Snow Dog]

That is true, but you got to start somewhere. if you can install a strong possession based game, than when our talent level does increase we will be that much farther ahead. Every marathon starts with one step.

True.We are starting at the back of the line.

 

[Joey Hoser]

What argument? You listed 6 teams who have #2 centres better than Kadri. By that logic, Kadri is the 7th best #2C in the NHL. Ain't nothin' wrong with that IMO.

Pointless argument.

Even if Kadri establishes himself as a legit top six center this season, the same people are going to bash him because he isn't a #1 center.

If he establishes himself as a #1 center, they'll bash him because he isn't an elite #1 center.

All they while saying they've always been right and everyone else is wrong.

My opinion on Kadri since he's been drafted is that he's a #2 center. This year should inform us as to whether or not he can be a good one, or just a place-holder.

 

[King85Kong]

True.We are starting at the back of the line.

That might also be true. Nowhere to go but up.

 

[Gary Nylund]

On one level you're right - doesn't matter how great of a coach you have, without enough skilled players you aren't going to win many hockey games.

That said, (I may be slightly misinterpretating your post) different coaches do run different systems, some of which are more indusive to a possession style of game. For example, Carlyle liked to do lots of things that were essentially anti-possession - such as using players like Kessel to try and play dump and chase, or collapsing his wingers in the defensive zone giving up the point to the other team.

Babcock has improved the possession game of the Leafs. And I'd attribute their most recent losses too: lack of skill (so I obviously agree with you here), bad luck and a few individual players being terrible at the worst times (such as Bernier last night).

It's only been two games but hopefully this is a trend that will continue - us having a better possession game. I also think that we just don't have the talent to convert our chances at a "competitive" rate. That's fine though, controlling possession is a good thing, eventually we will have more talent on the roster which will result in more goals.

If Babcock gets our guys to work hard and improves our possession game, it will be s successful year in my books. And if end up with another high pick in the draft, that's just icing on the cake IMO.

There's an old saying - "it's going to get worse before it's better'. I'm not saying we will definitely be worse than last year but it's not an unlikely scenario, far from it. The goal though IMO is to plant seeds that will bear fruit in the future, we're as far from win now mode as a team can be.

 

[King85Kong]

Pointless argument.

Even if Kadri establishes himself as a legit top six center this season, the same people are going to bash him because he isn't a #1 center.

If he establishes himself as a #1 center, they'll bash him because he isn't an elite #1 center.

All they while saying they've always been right and everyone else is wrong.

You nailed it. That is exactly how it will go.

 

[ULF_55]

Pointless argument.

Even if Kadri establishes himself as a legit top six center this season, the same people are going to bash him because he isn't a #1 center.

If he establishes himself as a #1 center, they'll bash him because he isn't an elite #1 center.

All they while saying they've always been right and everyone else is wrong.

There should be no gnashing of teeth about Kadri. Certainly we can voice our opinion, but the only opinion that matters ...

Babcock knows what he's doing.

By the end of this year we should see the true Kadri emerge. He's been given a clean slate by the new staff, he's 25 year old, he's physically mature, he's in the best condition of his life and has the green light.

He's been given the leading role on the biggest stage in the game.

What's not to like?

 

[The Man with a Plan]

There should be no gnashing of teeth about Kadri. Certainly we can voice our opinion, but the only opinion that matters ...

Babcock knows what he's doing.

By the end of this year we should see the true Kadri emerge. He's been given a clean slate by the new staff, he's 25 year old, he's physically mature, he's in the best condition of his life and has the green light.

He's been given the leading role on the biggest stage in the game.

What's not to like?

Ideally we only need him to be a damn good #2C seeing as we have Nylander and Marner in the system. If he rounds out his 200 foot game, keeps up drawing penalties and being physical then this season is a success for him no matter if he scores 50 or 70 points.

You have to build a proper foundation before you build anything else.

 

[dimi78]

There should be no gnashing of teeth about Kadri. Certainly we can voice our opinion, but the only opinion that matters ...

Babcock knows what he's doing.

By the end of this year we should see the true Kadri emerge. He's been given a clean slate by the new staff, he's 25 year old, he's physically mature, he's in the best condition of his life and has the green light.

He's been given the leading role on the biggest stage in the game.

What's not to like?

I don't think he's been given the leading role at all. The only change is that he's been placed in a situation to succeed in an offensive role centering the better goal scorers on the team with #1 PP minutes. He's not being used like Sundin as he shouldn't.

It might seem that way do to he's the most talented center we have and it shows... all of this #1 center talk but as we've noticed he's not being used like a true #1 center do to Babcock doesn't micromanage his bench which is exactly the right way to do this. Let him establish his strengths as a player 1st, get him out there over & over again to gain confidence in your bread and butter that makes you a good player and THAN START TO COMPLETE THEIR GAME.

What we did to him Gardiner & Rielly these past few years is the opposite. Take there strengths away and force feed them into playing a complete game. That's how you ruin confidence and ruin young talent.

He's 25 and this is the first year since we've drafted him that he's in a position to succeed in means to playing with his strengths in a role that brings it out of him. That's sad.

 

[Menzinger]

It's only been two games but hopefully this is a trend that will continue - us having a better possession game. I also think that we just don't have the talent to convert our chances at a "competitive" rate. That's fine though, controlling possession is a good thing, eventually we will have more talent on the roster which will result in more goals.

If Babcock gets our guys to work hard and improves our possession game, it will be s successful year in my books. And if end up with another high pick in the draft, that's just icing on the cake IMO.

There's an old saying - "it's going to get worse before it's better'. I'm not saying we will definitely be worse than last year but it's not an unlikely scenario, far from it. The goal though IMO is to plant seeds that will bear fruit in the future, we're as far from win now mode as a team can be.

Could not agree more.

Once they start injecting skill into the lineup and possession via prospect development things will turn around.

 

[HockeyCA]

What argument? You listed 6 teams who have #2 centres better than Kadri. By that logic, Kadri is the 7th best #2C in the NHL. Ain't nothin' wrong with that IMO.

I have neither the time nor the energy to dumb things down for you and engage in a pointless multi hour back and forth discussion. If you want to double down on the greatness of Kadri, be my guest. I think I remember you being in the Kadri is close to Zetterberg camp, and I think that's a perfect place for you to be.

 

[Snow Dog]

I don't think he's been given the leading role at all. The only change is that he's been placed in a situation to succeed in an offensive role centering the better goal scorers on the team with #1 PP minutes. He's not being used like Sundin as he shouldn't.

It might seem that way do to he's the most talented center we have and it shows... all of this #1 center talk but as we've noticed he's not being used like a true #1 center do to Babcock doesn't micromanage his bench which is exactly the right way to do this. Let him establish his strengths as a player 1st, get him out there over & over again to gain confidence in your bread and butter that makes you a good player and THAN START TO COMPLETE THEIR GAME.

What we did to him Gardiner & Rielly these past few years is the opposite. Take there strengths away and force feed them into playing a complete game. That's how you ruin confidence and ruin young talent.

He's 25 and this is the first year since we've drafted him that he's in a position to succeed in means to playing with his strengths in a role that brings it out of him. That's sad.

Teaching a player how to play a complete game is never a good idea.

 

[ULF_55]

Could not agree more.

Once they start injecting skill into the lineup and possession via prospect development things will turn around.

Sabres and Leafs could have solid futures in front of them, and teams like the Bruins might be in the rear view mirror.

 

[Pookie]

On one level you're right - doesn't matter how great of a coach you have, without enough skilled players you aren't going to win many hockey games.

That said, (I may be slightly misinterpretating your post) different coaches do run different systems, some of which are more indusive to a possession style of game. For example, Carlyle liked to do lots of things that were essentially anti-possession - such as using players like Kessel to try and play dump and chase, or collapsing his wingers in the defensive zone giving up the point to the other team.

Babcock has improved the possession game of the Leafs. And I'd attribute their most recent losses too: lack of skill (so I obviously agree with you here), bad luck and a few individual players being terrible at the worst times (such as Bernier last night).

We aren't that far apart.

I would just like to see an emphasis on conversion as the end goal of possession. The idea isn't that carrying the puck over the blue line is better than dump and chase, it's that the skill guys I have are more likely to be able to score from the slot if they can enter the zone with speed and the puck.

Without conversion, possession is nothing. It's why 2-3 Top 10 Corsi teams will miss the playoffs this year. Including that year the Leafs were 4th in that category under Ron Wilson (2009-10).

The Leafs don't have the horses to convert possession into what matters. That's fine. I don't expect them to be good for another 4 years.

If others want them to win, they may be better suited to a trap game and loading up on practice time on the PP.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I have neither the time nor the energy to dumb things down for you and engage in a pointless multi hour back and forth discussion. If you want to double down on the greatness of Kadri, be my guest. I think I remember you being in the Kadri is close to Zetterberg camp, and I think that's a perfect place for you to be.

If you think it would take "hours" to explain yourself, then I suspect you don't have a good grasp on what it is you're trying to say.

And your memory is faulty.

 

[dimi78]

Teaching a player how to play a complete game is never a good idea.

By taking there strengths away? Your darn right it's a bad idea. Melrose did that to Stamkos as a rookie was fired and Stamkos took off not by playing a complete game by means of being elevated in the line up and using his strengths as an offensive player.

All players have strengths and weaknesses if you don't let them use there strengths they won't succeed and the part of the game that needs growth won't grow either so exactly what are you doing?

Babcock is a teacher by trade what do you hear come from him a lot? Everything is about confidence with him.

 

[King85Kong]

By taking there strengths away? Your darn right it's a bad idea. Melrose did that to Stamkos as a rookie was fired and Stamkos took off not by playing a complete game by means of being elevated in the line up and using his strengths as an offensive player.

All players have strengths and weaknesses if you don't let them use there strengths they won't succeed and the part of the game that needs growth won't grow either so exactly what are you doing?

Babcock is a teacher by trade what do you hear come from him a lot? Everything is about confidence with him.

To get the most out of a player you play to their strengths not their weaknesses.

 

[Gary Nylund]

We aren't that far apart.

I would just like to see an emphasis on conversion as the end goal of possession. The idea isn't that carrying the puck over the blue line is better than dump and chase, it's that the skill guys I have are more likely to be able to score from the slot if they can enter the zone with speed and the puck.

Without conversion, possession is nothing. It's why 2-3 Top 10 Corsi teams will miss the playoffs this year. Including that year the Leafs were 4th in that category under Ron Wilson (2009-10).

The Leafs don't have the horses to convert possession into what matters. That's fine. I don't expect them to be good for another 4 years.

If others want them to win, they may be better suited to a trap game and loading up on practice time on the PP.

We've had some very good scoring chances so far. The reason they haven't been converted IMO is a lack of scoring talent plain and simple. Give a scoring opportunity to Kessel and it's far more likely to be converted than if you give that same opportunity to Holland/Boyes/Panik etc.

 

[Snow Dog]

By taking there strengths away? Your darn right it's a bad idea. Melrose did that to Stamkos as a rookie was fired and Stamkos took off not by playing a complete game by means of being elevated in the line up and using his strengths as an offensive player.

All players have strengths and weaknesses if you don't let them use there strengths they won't succeed and the part of the game that needs growth won't grow either so exactly what are you doing?

Babcock is a teacher by trade what do you hear come from him a lot? Everything is about confidence with him.

And Babcock's system teaches players to be responsible on D first.Which most forwards only do because they are told to do so.Take a look at the last Olympic team,so much firepower held back to be responsible in all areas of the ice.And guess what,they won.

 

[Snow Dog]

We've had some very good scoring chances so far. The reason they haven't been converted IMO is a lack of scoring talent plain and simple. Give a scoring opportunity to Kessel and it's far more likely to be converted than if you give that same opportunity to Holland/Boyes/Panik etc.

That's one of the reasons I don't like Corsi stats.You can take 100 shots a game but if you can't bury the puck you aren't winning anything.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Kadri has been solid, and he is our best option at the moment without question. I would let him run with JVR and Lupul for a while. It's the only semblance of a number one line that we can muster.

 

[ULF_55]

If you think it would take "hours" to explain yourself, then I suspect you don't have a good grasp on what it is you're trying to say.

And your memory is faulty.

Perhaps he is misremembering:

http://tipofthetower.com/2014/10/22...adri-thinks-will-develop-tavares-like-player/

I wonder if all the best players hit their peak earlier, of if an older player can still elevate their game into that level? First thought was Benn, but even at 22 he had 63 points. Voracek had 50 points as a 20 year old.

 

[Joey Hoser]

And Babcock's system teaches players to be responsible on D first.Which most forwards only do because they are told to do so.Take a look at the last Olympic team,so much firepower held back to be responsible in all areas of the ice.And guess what,they won.

True, but having world class offensive players at every position on the team really helps alleviate the need for individuals to press for offence, and that's not a luxury you're ever going to get in the NHL.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That's one of the reasons I don't like Corsi stats.You can take 100 shots a game but if you can't bury the puck you aren't winning anything.

I would say don't dislike the stat, just employ critical thinking when reading somebody's argument that uses those stats. A good tool in the hands of a moron may lead to destruction but that's not the fault of the tool.

 

[Menzinger]

Sabres and Leafs could have solid futures in front of them, and teams like the Bruins might be in the rear view mirror.

Yep. Bruins are going to tread water due to Rask and Bergeron but won't be good enough to go anywhere. Their management will need to figure out they need a retool/rebuild.

Leafs/Sabres could shape up to be a really fun rivalry.

 

[dimi78]

To get the most out of a player you play to their strengths not their weaknesses.

Somebody should tell that Carlyle..... FYI a lot of people like to talk about defense but not many know that becoming good defensively for most offensive players like 90% of them it's experience from losing that teaches them how to anticipate that part of the game.

Toews and Bergeron are anomaly's to come into the league with the defensive awareness they have. Heck Gretzky at no time was he a complete player. His strength was so damn above better than anybody else he and his line mates were always in the offensive zone in do to his strength to a puck possession game.

If you want to grow players coaches need to be hands off from youths strengths and PROMOTE THE HECK OF IT AT THE EARLY GOING.