Kadri player discssion thread.

[Pookie]

We all wanted a Babcock style of possession game, and Kadri produced that 1st game extremely effectively. The 2nd game was pretty terrible, especially since I was expecting our 1C to carry but oh well.

A Babcock style possssion game? I am really curious what that is exactly.

A revolutionary system that no other team plays?

Good teams keep the puck more because they generally have good players. Babcock enjoyed multiple years of Norris, Selke, and a host of other trophies.

Did we seriously think we could get results like Detroit by playing like Detroit without the talent level Detroit has?

Put a puck and the blue line. Line 2 skaters on the goal line. Tell them to go get the puck on the whistle. Both want possession. The faster player is the one that will get it. Every time.

Put a puck in the corner. Line players up at the blue line. Tell them to go get it and hold possession for 5 seconds. The faster and ultimately bigger/more skilled guy is going to keep it. Every time.

My rec team can diagram all the cycling or outlet passes it wants, put us up against the Chicago Blackhawks and we would lose the keep away game every time.

Incidentally, chicago's goal would be to score against us, not win keep away. As a function of their skill though, they would keep the puck about 95% of the time.

If we want to use this season (and the next 3-4) to teach a system, that's fine. Though the merits of doing it with players that won't be here when it's done is questionable.

If you want to win games though, you can't win focusing on keep away against teams with better talent. Put Bozak and Kadri on the blue line and tell them to go win the puck against Crosby and Malkin. Pittsburgh wins every time.

A trap system, limit aggression to limit penalties against and effective power play might be more condusive. If the goal is winning.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

A Babcock style possssion game? I am really curious what that is exactly.

A revolutionary system that no other team plays?

Good teams keep the puck more because they generally have good players. Babcock enjoyed multiple years of Norris, Selke, and a host of other trophies.

Put a puck and the blue line. Line 2 skaters on the goal line. Tell them to go get the puck on the whistle. Both want possession. The faster player is the one that will get it. Every time.

Put a puck in the corner. Line players up at the blue line. Tell them to go get it and hold possession for 5 seconds. The faster and ultimately bigger/more skilled guy is going to keep it. Every time.

My rec team can diagram all the cycling or outlet passes it wants, put us up against the Chicago Blackhawks and we would lose the keep away game every time

A possession-style game is nothing revolutionary. What makes Babcock so good is the fact that he's a no nonsense kind of coach; you either buy into the system and get minutes or you deviate from the plan and fall down the depth chart no matter how good you are.

What this means is that when the coach draws up a plan where individuals have to be in certain parts of the ice in certain situations then those individuals have to be in their assigned position to make that plan effective when implementing. Without that cohesiveness you could have a star-studded lineup and it still wouldn't go far in the playoffs.

You're also confusing the level of skill of players in your rec league and the level of skill of players in the NHL--the level of skill between players in the NHL doesn't vary as much as the level of skill between NHLers and your rec league This is why a coachs system and plan is so important in the NHL but won't make a difference if team's in your rec league lined up against NHL teams--it's because the level of skill in your rec league is putrid compared to an NHLers. Not even the flying V could help you

 

[Admiring Myself]

kadri is our best forward we are 100% not trading him. the hate for him is insane and shows that many hf posters are blind.

best forward on an awful team that is about to get paid. this is the attitude that has the leafs in their current position.

 

[Nithoniniel]

best forward on an awful team that is about to get paid. this is the attitude that has the leafs in their current position.

Eh no, the Leafs have had more and worse issues than that.

 

[StevieBlunder]

I'm really rooting for Kadri this year. I want to see him on this team in one, two years time. He's got the talent, he's got the coach, he's got the will, let's see him breakout.

So far he's been fine. Great chances, great speed. It'll feel a lot better when he nets one. And if it could be against the Sens, all the better.

 

[Pookie]

A possession-style game is nothing revolutionary. What makes Babcock so good is the fact that he's a no nonsense kind of coach; you either buy into the system and get minutes or you deviate from the plan and fall down the depth chart no matter how good you are.

What this means is that when the coach draws up a plan where individuals have to be in certain parts of the ice in certain situations then those individuals have to be in their assigned position to make that plan effective when implementing. Without that cohesiveness you could have a star-studded lineup and it still wouldn't go far in the playoffs.

You're also confusing the level of skill of players in your rec league and the level of skill of players in the NHL--the level of skill between players in the NHL doesn't vary as much as the level of skill between NHLers and your rec league This is why a coachs system and plan is so important in the NHL but won't make a difference if team's in your rec league lined up against NHL teams--it's because the level of skill in your rec league is putrid compared to an NHLers. Not even the flying V could help you

the difference in my rec league and the NHL is quite vast. The example was provided as an illustration that given teams with equal objectives and systems, the variables are talent and hard work.

If the talented team outworks the inferior team using the same strategy, they win.

The only way the inferior team wins is if they outwork the opponent OR play with a different system.

Man City, Real Madrid, FC Barcelona all lose soccer games. But if you go into it thinking you are going to control the ball, you are done.

Teams don't go up against FCB with 4-3-3 system, they "park the bus" and look to force a turnover and score off the counter attack. Maybe even a dive in the box to get a PK chance.

What you describe as Babcock's system is still waiting for a system description. You describe a coach that follows through. That's not unique to a system.

 

[Ovate]

best forward on an awful team that is about to get paid. this is the attitude that has the leafs in their current position.

The issue in the past was paying players based on their production or hits within actually looking at the defensive side of their game. Kadri has a better defensive game than any of the overpaid Leafs contracts right now.

How much do you think Kadri's going to get paid? It's not going to be a league leading amount.

If he plays great and gets a big contract, it'll be something like $6.5x6, which is better than Spezza or Kesler's recent extensions, especially considering how much younger Kadri is.

If he plays ok, but gets his off-ice issues dealt with, it'll be something like $5x5. A little higher than Anisimov or Sutter, but even Kadri are his current level is better than those guys.

Centers are expensive, and at his worst Kadri is a decent 2C. Him getting paid does not mean he'll be overpaid.

 

[TheObserver]

hes been by far the best player imo.

he's actually trying things, had some good looks too. don't expect a winning season this year guys...

 

[HockeyCA]

The issue in the past was paying players based on their production or hits within actually looking at the defensive side of their game. Kadri has a better defensive game than any of the overpaid Leafs contracts right now.

How much do you think Kadri's going to get paid? It's not going to be a league leading amount.

If he plays great and gets a big contract, it'll be something like $6.5x6, which is better than Spezza or Kesler's recent extensions, especially considering how much younger Kadri is.

If he plays ok, but gets his off-ice issues dealt with, it'll be something like $5x5. A little higher than Anisimov or Sutter, but even Kadri are his current level is better than those guys.

Centers are expensive, and at his worst Kadri is a decent 2C. Him getting paid does not mean he'll be overpaid.

Look around the league at the true cup contenders and see who their #2 centers are, let alone their number #1.. Kadri is not a #2 on a Stanley Cup roster. He's a #3, and if you pay a #3 center that type of contract, a team will be capped out. That's the real problem, and most likely the reason he will be shipped out by the end of the year.

 

[King85Kong]

Rough night for everyone. No point singling out an individual player. Collectively they sucked. Everyone included.

 

[TheObserver]

Look around the league at the true cup contenders and see who their #2 centers are, let alone their number #1.. Kadri is not a #2 on a Stanley Cup roster. He's a #3, and if you pay a #3 center that type of contract, a team will be capped out. That's the real problem, and most likely the reason he will be shipped out by the end of the year.

just curious, which number 3c has his type of production?

 

[King85Kong]

just curious, which number 3c has his type of production?

You will have a better conversation with a wall. No matter how much facts and evidence you provide they will simply say no, no ,noooo.

 

[HockeyCA]

just curious, which number 3c has his type of production?

LA Kings-- Kopitar and Carter

Blackhawks-- Toews and ____

Ducks-- Getzlaf and Kesler

Detroit-- Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Brad Rirchards

Pittsburgh-- Crosby and Malkin

NYR-- Stepan and Brassard

TBL-- Johnson and Stamkos

Really, the only spot there is behind Toews, and that works only because they have Patrick Kane on the wing, a generational talent. Facts are that Kadri would not be a #2 center on any of those teams.. And he certainly wouldn't be the #2 center on Chicago with a 6 million dollar plus year contract. He's a #3 center on pretty much every contenders roster.

 

[Rogie]

the difference in my rec league and the NHL is quite vast. The example was provided as an illustration that given teams with equal objectives and systems, the variables are talent and hard work.

If the talented team outworks the inferior team using the same strategy, they win.

The only way the inferior team wins is if they outwork the opponent OR play with a different system.

Man City, Real Madrid, FC Barcelona all lose soccer games. But if you go into it thinking you are going to control the ball, you are done.

Teams don't go up against FCB with 4-3-3 system, they "park the bus" and look to force a turnover and score off the counter attack. Maybe even a dive in the box to get a PK chance.

What you describe as Babcock's system is still waiting for a system description. You describe a coach that follows through. That's not unique to a system.

It's true that the variables are level of talent and hard work, but, it's it's not a good example, because as GHHT says, there's very very little difference in the talent level of players in the NHL compare to your rec league. I'd also argue that there is also a lot smaller difference in their effort or how hard they work compared to your rec league; so, yeah, your example to me seems like NOT a good example at all.

If you want to compare things to make a point when argueing, you really need to use things that are very similar.

I played TONS AND TONS of rec hockey and 40 years of hockey at various levels up to Junior A, and agree with GHHT, the difference in talent levels in rec leagues is huge - in fact, I played against lots and lots of pro hockey players - even NHLers and tons of AHLers, but nobody in the NHL (well, please forget about McClaren/Orr) ever played against a rec player.

Yeah, just a bad example I guess Pookie!

 

[Menzinger]

LA Kings-- Kopitar and Carter

Blackhawks-- Toews and ____

Ducks-- Getzlaf and Kesler

Detroit-- Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Brad Rirchards

Pittsburgh-- Crosby and Malkin

NYR-- Stepan and Brassard

TBL-- Johnson and Stamkos

Really, the only spot there is behind Toews, and that works only because they have Patrick Kane on the wing, a generational talent. Facts are that Kadri would not be a #2 center on any of those teams.. And he certainly wouldn't be the #2 center on Chicago with a 6 million dollar plus year contract. He's a #3 center on pretty much every contenders roster.

Just because Kadri wouldn't be a top six centre for team X doesn't mean he can't be a top six centre in a Leaf team that becomes a contender. Every team has a unique construction- there is no direct formula.

Kadri has had top six offensive production rates over the past three seasons and has great possession numbers. I see no reason to believe hmthat he can't be a part of the Leafs core moving forward.
He also doesn't HAVE to be part of it, but the trade offer would have to be a clear "win" for the Leafs.

 

[King85Kong]

These seven teams are strong at center so Kadri can't be a top 6 center on any team. Solid logic.

 

[Menzinger]

A Babcock style possssion game? I am really curious what that is exactly.

A revolutionary system that no other team plays?

Good teams keep the puck more because they generally have good players. Babcock enjoyed multiple years of Norris, Selke, and a host of other trophies.

Did we seriously think we could get results like Detroit by playing like Detroit without the talent level Detroit has?

Put a puck and the blue line. Line 2 skaters on the goal line. Tell them to go get the puck on the whistle. Both want possession. The faster player is the one that will get it. Every time.

Put a puck in the corner. Line players up at the blue line. Tell them to go get it and hold possession for 5 seconds. The faster and ultimately bigger/more skilled guy is going to keep it. Every time.

My rec team can diagram all the cycling or outlet passes it wants, put us up against the Chicago Blackhawks and we would lose the keep away game every time.

Incidentally, chicago's goal would be to score against us, not win keep away. As a function of their skill though, they would keep the puck about 95% of the time.

If we want to use this season (and the next 3-4) to teach a system, that's fine. Though the merits of doing it with players that won't be here when it's done is questionable.

If you want to win games though, you can't win focusing on keep away against teams with better talent. Put Bozak and Kadri on the blue line and tell them to go win the puck against Crosby and Malkin. Pittsburgh wins every time.

A trap system, limit aggression to limit penalties against and effective power play might be more condusive. If the goal is winning.

On one level you're right - doesn't matter how great of a coach you have, without enough skilled players you aren't going to win many hockey games.

That said, (I may be slightly misinterpretating your post) different coaches do run different systems, some of which are more indusive to a possession style of game. For example, Carlyle liked to do lots of things that were essentially anti-possession - such as using players like Kessel to try and play dump and chase, or collapsing his wingers in the defensive zone giving up the point to the other team.

Babcock has improved the possession game of the Leafs. And I'd attribute their most recent losses too: lack of skill (so I obviously agree with you here), bad luck and a few individual players being terrible at the worst times (such as Bernier last night).

 

[King85Kong]

On one level you're right - doesn't matter how great of a coach you have, without enough skilled players you aren't going to win many hockey games.

That said, (I may be slightly misinterpretating your post) different coaches do run different systems, some of which are more indusive to a possession style of game. For example, Carlyle liked to do lots of things that were essentially anti-possession - such as using players like Kessel to try and play dump and chase, or collapsing his wingers in the defensive zone giving up the point to the other team.

Babcock has improved the possession game of the Leafs. And I'd attribute their most recent losses too: lack of skill (so I obviously agree with you here), bad luck and a few individual players being terrible at the worst times (such as Bernier last night).

Well put. Babcock is much better with installing the possession game. I like the idea of I'll play offense so you can play defense. If you have the puck the other team can't score.

 

[HockeyCA]

These seven teams are strong at center so Kadri can't be a top 6 center on any team. Solid logic.

Yep, you completely understand my argument.

 

[Snow Dog]

A good team will give you good possesion numbers.Good possesion numbers don't give you a good team.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yep, you completely understand my argument.

What argument? You listed 6 teams who have #2 centres better than Kadri. By that logic, Kadri is the 7th best #2C in the NHL. Ain't nothin' wrong with that IMO.

 

[King85Kong]

A good team will give you good possesion numbers.Good possesion numbers don't give you a good team.

That is true, but you got to start somewhere. if you can install a strong possession based game, than when our talent level does increase we will be that much farther ahead. Every marathon starts with one step.

 

[King85Kong]

What argument? You listed 6 teams who have #2 centres better than Kadri. By that logic, Kadri is the 7th best #2C in the NHL. Ain't nothin' wrong with that IMO.

Hint....There is no argument.

 

[ULF_55]

Just because Kadri wouldn't be a top six centre for team X doesn't mean he can't be a top six centre in a Leaf team that becomes a contender. Every team has a unique construction- there is no direct formula.

Kadri has had top six offensive production rates over the past three seasons and has great possession numbers. I see no reason to believe hmthat he can't be a part of the Leafs core moving forward.
He also doesn't HAVE to be part of it, but the trade offer would have to be a clear "win" for the Leafs.

Just curious, where does Kadri rank in the league with his possession numbers?

Which possession numbers should we refer to?

I'm not overly concerned with his ranking compared to his teammates, more how he ranks to the competition.

A link would be nice.

 

[Nithoniniel]

A good team will give you good possesion numbers.Good possesion numbers don't give you a good team.

Sigh.

If you have a team of good possession players, chances are that you are a good team. It isn't necessarily so, but chances are good.

Furthermore, if you want to build your team you have to start looking at ways to improve. Get good is not one. Get better at the possession game is.

I don't get this logic people use that we have to focus on being good, instead of having good possession. They are not mutually exclusive, you don't have to pick and choose. You get players with good possession numbers as a basis for what they can bring because it is a solid, repeatable indicator of impact. Nobody has ever said it's the only thing you look at. But it's one of the things you use to determine if a player is good or not.

Edit: Jumping the gun a bit with that last part. I've seen people argue like that. Not saying that's how you were thinking, BC.