Kadri player discssion thread.

[mikebel111*]

wait I thought Bozak is a highly valued player and he is good in the room. So much for that

looks like Leafs love Kadri. not surprising though

good to know our management is smarter than the Kadri critics

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Elite players elevate the players they play with. For a while a lot of folks around here were saying Kadri was comparable with some of the very best players in the game (Zetterberg, etc.), I think I remember a chart being passed around quite frequently. I guess that narrative has finally come and gone at least.

Also, you really should try not to talk down to others.. You sound kind of like a schmuck.

The majority of value that we got at the trade deadline last year came from trading Kadri's linemates (Santorelli and Winnik) who were each having one of their best seasons in the league, and dropped off precipitously after being dealt.

He makes his linemates better. No question. Even though JVR and Boyes are not exactly ideal, they're a huge step up from the 3rd and 4th liners that he has carried for the past two seasons.

 

[Duke Silver]

Hey look! A guy who thinks he's way smarter than he actually is..

Coming from the guy who routinely (intentionally?) misses the point... this is good comedy.

I guess it's just not clear on what your argument is now, and what it was in the past.

Or your reading comprehension is sub-par.

Last season, I think the argument went that Kadri was underrated because he produced so much without first line minutes and opportunity. In fact, I think the main argument went something like a lot of his advanced metrics were comparable to some of the very best in the game, depending on the individual player, and he was being held back by the players in front of him on the depth chart. Some said Zetterberg, one or two compared him to the very very best, but almost all agreed that he was being held back by a lack of opportunity. Most pointed to his almost 50 point season as an indication of his potential for greatness, and indicative that a lack of opportunity was truly the reason as to why his point totals were not of the same level as his "peers" in regards to his advanced metric comparables. All that was needed, supposedly, was more responsibility and opportunity by the coaching staff.

All we've learned here is that you DO understand but you're being purposefully obtuse for some reason.

Because "for a while a lot of folks around here were saying Kadri was comparable with some of the very best players in the game (Zetterberg, etc.)" is clearly you being intentionally flippant and going back to the old "Kadri is not as good as Zetterberg" argument you trumpeted about whenever those comparisons were brought to light. There was no mention in the above quote of advanced stats or per-60 metrics, but rather a return to you overgeneralizing the point once again.

And now, it seems that same group seems to be saying that if he just is able to produce at the same levels as previous seasons, even though he's about to be given the opportunity so many have said would come with increased production, then they can say I told you so.

You cannot just lump the entire pro-Kadri group into a single mindset like this, then fight an imaginary viewpoint. How foolish and desperate that looks.

Personally, I think it's pretty obvious that we are not about to witness a coming out party where this player produces 65-75 points that would make the lofty comparables of the past at least somewhat realistic. Inconsistency, an average shot, and a lack of elite playmaking abilities will lead to good production, but not elite production. Elite production that was predicted by so many around here if the coaching staff just made him the primary engine of the offence. Well, seems to me that is what is about to happen and the backtracking has already begun.

Aaaaand we're right back to you not getting it.

The comparisons were made based on even strength scoring rates. Just because two players' even strength scoring rates are being compared, this does not mean an argument is being made that one is better than the other, that they will have matching overall productivity or have similar overall impact on the game. Which is exactly what you're doing by saying he needs to hit 65-75 points to meet these lofty comparables. NO!

The major difference between Zetterberg and Kadri's overall productivity was their powerplay proficiency: Zetterberg is an absolute monster on the PP (#10 in per-60 production with #2 Datsyuk on his unit -- Kessel was the Leafs best producer on the powerplay last season and landed at #73).

We've very rarely seen Kadri on the top powerplay unit, and now that our primary powerplay driver is no longer on the roster, there's not much of a chance that Kadri suddenly becomes a top-10 powerplay producer like Zetterberg. So if your argument this entire season is going to be "but you guys told me he was going to be an elite producer like Zetterberg" then we're going to have a long season.

I personally think 55-59 points is a great season for Kadri. It would be comparatively much more impressive than anything that Bozak did with Kessel on his wing. Anything starting with a 6 puts him top-50 in the league, which would be tough considering the current state of the team and his linemates.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Knock off the personal banter in posting please

 

[HockeyCA]

I'm glad we can both finally agree not to expect elite level production.. Finally.

 

[cookie]

Personally, I think it's pretty obvious that we are not about to witness a coming out party where this player produces 65-75 points that would make the lofty comparables of the past at least somewhat realistic. Inconsistency, an average shot, and a lack of elite playmaking abilities will lead to good production, but not elite production. Elite production that was predicted by so many around here if the coaching staff just made him the primary engine of the offence. Well, seems to me that is what is about to happen and the backtracking has already begun.

Even if he had first line wingers with him, he still wouldn't meet the 65-75 mark you've pulled out.

What he has is a carousel of players that have historically shown themselves to be depth role players and guys struggling to even be in the NHL. Yet what is expected from him is greatness.

You can't get blood from a stone no matter how hard you beat it. In your example, had Kadri met the 65 point threshold, he'd be 16th among centers in scoring. You know, the same group of centers who have first liners playing wing for them and have competent secondary scorers to deflect some of the defensive pressure. You know, the same centers that regularly represent their countries in international events. The cream of the crop.

But guess what? Had you acknowledged the arguments used by the other side, you would understand that Kadri's perceived value is that of a second line center. Not of a center that scores at a rate comparable to the league's utmost elite.

Sure you expect good players to make the guys around them better but not to the extent that they are able to turn cast-offs into a 60 point scorers. Realistically speaking, even a 40+ point season for any player on this talent-deprived group is an accomplishment.

I'm glad we can both finally agree not to expect elite level production.. Finally.

Elite production is not a single players' effect. It's a team game. That means you need players who can keep up and build chemistry with. The rag-tag group of players that Kadri has played with have had their best, or near their best, points producing seasons. Where did elite production even come from lol

 

[TLeafsFan]

named number 1 C, and gets brad boyes to play with, that just sucks...at least he'll have jvr

Babcock favours pairs. AKA JVR and Kadri. RW will likely rotate the one that shows best AT THE TIME getting the opportunity. Boyes had the best camp and so gets the first shot. Not rocket science.

 

[TLeafsFan]

People don't have much to prove anymore to justify Kadri as the top center of the CURRENT Leafs team.

The haters and their rhetoric is just pretty much blah, blah, blah. No evidence to back up why he shouldn't be there except harsh words. But reading it makes for good entertainment.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Hey look! A guy who thinks he's way smarter than he actually is..

I guess it's just not clear on what your argument is now, and what it was in the past. Last season, I think the argument went that Kadri was underrated because he produced so much without first line minutes and opportunity. In fact, I think the main argument went something like a lot of his advanced metrics were comparable to some of the very best in the game, depending on the individual player, and he was being held back by the players in front of him on the depth chart. Some said Zetterberg, one or two compared him to the very very best, but almost all agreed that he was being held back by a lack of opportunity. Most pointed to his almost 50 point season as an indication of his potential for greatness, and indicative that a lack of opportunity was truly the reason as to why his point totals were not of the same level as his "peers" in regards to his advanced metric comparables. All that was needed, supposedly, was more responsibility and opportunity by the coaching staff.

And now, it seems that same group seems to be saying that if he just is able to produce at the same levels as previous seasons, even though he's about to be given the opportunity so many have said would come with increased production, then they can say I told you so.

Personally, I think it's pretty obvious that we are not about to witness a coming out party where this player produces 65-75 points that would make the lofty comparables of the past at least somewhat realistic. Inconsistency, an average shot, and a lack of elite playmaking abilities will lead to good production, but not elite production. Elite production that was predicted by so many around here if the coaching staff just made him the primary engine of the offence. Well, seems to me that is what is about to happen and the backtracking has already begun.

That much we can agree on. For years I've heard guys like you refer to Bozak as a 50 point player and dismiss Kadri as a 39 point player ignoring all context. Kadri can't beat out Bozak for the #1C job is the favorite refrain.

Now Kessel's gone and you guys can't backtrack fast enough. Now all of sudden, none of you guys want to talk about who will produce more points between KAdri and Bozak oh no. Now you're back to saying Kadri should be "elite" and produce 70 points no matter who his wingers are.

One minute you say Bozak>Kadri, the next minute Kadri should be elite.

I'll make it as simple for you as I can. Zetterberg>Kadri. Kadri >Bozak. Comprende?

 

[Rogie]

I asked about giving out another 'A' in the game day thread.

Robidas is out and he has an A.

Not to start any fights, but, Babcock could really pump Kadri up if he gave him a letter.

Does he like him that much, or, would the coaches want to watch and ponder a while before handing out an A.

 

[Pookie]

I asked about giving out another 'A' in the game day thread.

Robidas is out and he has an A.

Not to start any fights, but, Babcock could really pump Kadri up if he gave him a letter.

Does he like him that much, or, would the coaches want to watch and ponder a while before handing out an A.

Motivate or reward?

Up to them really. I don't see rewarding a guy who hasn't done anything yet as a good thing but it's their call.

I also wouldn't keep it with Bozak and Lupul. Better choices IMO but the coaches know the character they are trying to develop.

I would think a Polak or even a Rielly would be the trademarks they are trying to enforce.

 

[thewave]

Babcock favours pairs. AKA JVR and Kadri. RW will likely rotate the one that shows best AT THE TIME getting the opportunity. Boyes had the best camp and so gets the first shot. Not rocket science.

Pairs are the best way to go about firepower distribution. Ideally it's a C and a Winger but we had Kessel and JVR towing it last year. If Kadri and JVR can hit 60pts we're good. Lupul and Bozak likely won't click but if they put up 40-45 on the 2nd line it's fine. The third and 4th line contributions will spell out how terrible we are. If they don't produce at all, then we are a lock for bottom 5 pick. (Most likely the case)

 

[ULF_55]

van Riemsdyk - Kadri - Boyes

Should get about 170 points combined.

60+60+50

2015-2016 van Riemdsyk > 2014-2015 van Riemsdyk
2015-2016 Kadri = 2014-2015 Kessel
2015-2016 Boyes >= 2014-2015 Bozak

Boyes on the 1st. line this year, so Babcock thinks he's a 1st. liner.

Not much different talent wise between Tavares and Kadri, so projection might be low. 36 year old, broken down Datsyuk, had 65 points in 63 games, playing on Babcock's team, so Babcock doesn't stop players from scoring points. If you don't score it isn't due to the Babcock system.

If we use the 48 game schedule as indicative of Kadri's abilities (and let's not forget he's 25 now, not a kid/prospect) he could easily approach 70+ points.

Let's just hope he doesn't bring his A game or those high draft picks could be a thing of the past.

 

[thewave]

van Riemsdyk - Kadri - Boyes

Should get about 170 points combined.

60+60+50

2015-2016 van Riemdsyk > 2014-2015 van Riemsdyk
2015-2016 Kadri = 2014-2015 Kessel
2015-2016 Boyes >= 2014-2015 Bozak

Boyes on the 1st. line this year, so Babcock thinks he's a 1st. liner.

Not much different talent wise between Tavares and Kadri, so projection might be low. 36 year old, broken down Datsyuk, had 65 points in 63 games, playing on Babcock's team, so Babcock doesn't stop players from scoring points. If you don't score it isn't due to the Babcock system.

If we use the 48 game schedule as indicative of Kadri's abilities (and let's not forget he's 25 now, not a kid/prospect) he could easily approach 70+ points.

Let's just hope he doesn't bring his A game or those high draft picks could be a thing of the past.

Without a 2nd C(really a 1c) and a Sniper out there we likely have no worries getting a top 10 pick.

 

[MJ65]

Knock off the personal banter in posting please

I don't think if this Kadri / Bozak debate will go away on these boards until one of them is traded

 

[MJ65]

With a full season playing as a 1st line center and 1st PP minutes, Kadri should be able to get 60+ points and he is quiet capable of doing that

 

[Falon]

Worth noting that despite a coach's best efforts, teams regularly play their 1st lines against other teams 2nd lines and vice versa. Which means that Kadri has faced the top lines of other teams. What I find interesting about his last season was that he was keyed on more so than any other player on his line. I noticed this regularly, and felt for him, as the other teams understood if he was taken out the Leafs had no second line. Carlyle did too, which is why he broke up the first line and put Kadri and Kessel together for a little while. The effect of this was that the "1st" line stopped scoring too. So he'd go back to what he knew and reunite them. This is not to say that I feel Kadri's an elite center, in fact I don't feel that way. I think he is the best center currently on the Leafs though. That's why he's playing on the first line.

 

[Gary Nylund]

van Riemsdyk - Kadri - Boyes

Should get about 170 points combined.

60+60+50

2015-2016 van Riemdsyk > 2014-2015 van Riemsdyk
2015-2016 Kadri = 2014-2015 Kessel
2015-2016 Boyes >= 2014-2015 Bozak

Boyes on the 1st. line this year, so Babcock thinks he's a 1st. liner.

Not much different talent wise between Tavares and Kadri, so projection might be low. 36 year old, broken down Datsyuk, had 65 points in 63 games, playing on Babcock's team, so Babcock doesn't stop players from scoring points. If you don't score it isn't due to the Babcock system.

If we use the 48 game schedule as indicative of Kadri's abilities (and let's not forget he's 25 now, not a kid/prospect) he could easily approach 70+ points.

Let's just hope he doesn't bring his A game or those high draft picks could be a thing of the past.

What a bunch of garbage this post is.

I'll bet you pretty much anything you like that this trio doesn't reach 170 points this year, it's a completely unreasonable expectation. How about this, the loser of the best stops posting on this board forever. Deal?

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

What are the odds he will finish the season as the teams first line center?

 

[ULF_55]

I'll bet you pretty much anything you like that this trio doesn't reach 170 points this year, it's a completely unreasonable expectation. How about this, the loser of the best stops posting on this board forever. Deal?

What are your projections and why?

Except for last year which we know was based on the team quitting, how many points with Bozak as the center did the 1st. line usually get?

Do you believe Kadri is dramatically better than Bozak?

Is van Riemsdyk, now a year older and more experienced not better than he was last year? He has averaged 58.5 points the last 2 seasons (with Bozak).

Boyes has won the top winger position beside Kadri, and Babcock put him there, so if Babcock is making merit decisions, we have to go with Boyes being the best at that position.

Kadri had 50 points 2 years ago, playing with inferior players.

Are you suggesting Kadri isn't going to score more points than 2 years ago?

You don't seem to have very much confidence in Kadri if you don't think he's going to be better at 25, than he was at 23.

 

[Gallagbi]

Tavares, Crosby and Stamkos lines last year were in the ~165-175 point range, I doubt the Leafs see that type of production from their top line.

145ish seems more realistic with 50-55 from JVR/Kadri and 40 from Boyes.

 

[ULF_55]

Tavares, Crosby and Stamkos lines last year were in the ~165-175 point range, I doubt the Leafs see that type of production from their top line.

145ish seems more realistic with 50-55 from JVR/Kadri and 40 from Boyes.

In a year the team quit.

2014-2015 - van Riemsdyk-Bozak-Kessel: 166 points

I'm talking total points for the 3, Crosby had 84 points alone.

Last year was the 1st. in 3 years, Kessel wasn't near PPG (3 previous years he averaged over PPG).

 

[Fogelhund]

What are the odds he will finish the season as the teams first line center?

Given the other options, I'd say pretty high barring injury.

 

[Mess]

Leafs top line verses the top 30 lines this year

Top 30 lines heading into NHL season

 

[Gallagbi]

In a year the team quit.

2014-2015 - van Riemsdyk-Bozak-Kessel: 166 points

Certainly did, now look around the league and see how that compares to the norm.

The gap between Boyes and Kessel is far greater than the gap between Kadri and Bozak.

I'm talking total points for the 3, Crosby had 84 points alone.

and his line mates combined for 81/91 depending on who you want to use on the right (Perron/Hornqvist)