Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

[LOFIN]

That Finnish aura of confidence is starting to evolve to arrogance and looking like someone that doesn't see the need or space for himself to improve, or maybe this is just what we have.

I mean he has literally been one of the few players today who has owned it and said he wasn't good enough.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I mean he has literally been one of the few players today who has owned it and said he wasn't good enough.

Words are hollow. This is his FIFTH NHL offseason. He's now a NHL veteran. No longer some young kid who should be improving.

It's cute that he "owned it." Very cute.

Maybe he should've "owned it" in the prior FOUR NHL offseasons when he apparently did f***-all to improve his skating, game, etc.

As an outside observer, Kakko is a big forward who seems to be very good controlling the puck on the cycle, pretty good winning board battles. But I did notice in the playoffs that he has a tendency to not attack the net when he has puck possession, leads to controlled possession time that ends in no positive outcome.

He's the type that looks very good with some of the micro fancy stats but the results aren't there, and it is evident when you watch games. His skating is just ok, but he makes his stride work.

It's telling when basically every neutral fan can only reference puck possession.

But he "owned it!" He "owned" sucking ass, I guess! So we should praise that. For some reason.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

It's dishonest to use his career averages, and then look at the context of his last two seasons to figure out that, if healthy he'll hit...those averages? Ok.

Like, 40 pts really isnt a large hill to climb, man. He's 22 and still really talented, already hit the 40 pt mark and close to 20 goals. It's a stretch to say that in his most productive years moving forward, he wouldn't hit or exceed those marks? Come on.



He's not a black hole lol. If he wasn't the number 2OA pick you'd be valuing him as a third line defensive forward with decent offensive upside for a third liner. That's all I'm saying we should value him as. Looking at him purely as a third liner making $2m, he's a good value player. Now if he wants a significant raise, yeah, bad value. But 2-2.5m, unless we have other moves in the tank and need the cap space, it's a good value.

1. Yes - it is absolutely dishonest to sit there and say the guy was close to 40 points two seasons in a row. I literally did the f***ing math and showed you were wrong. You really want to double down on this stuff? You want to disprove math or something?

I guess Kakko is immune to math. He transcends numbers (that his supporters lie about or miscalculate)!

2. 40 points is a number he's hit once in his career. He was way off that pace this year and the year before, he was nearly 20% off that pace (no matter how much you want to purposefully try and distort the literal math that disagrees with you). You'll sit there and claim that "Oh, 6 points isn't that far off from 40!" all while ignoring that it's just about 20% off that pace. A significant figure for a guy who doesn't put up points.

Come on indeed. Learn how math works. I shouldn't have had to do a follow-up post. Your entire post should've been an admission you were wrong, but I digress.

3. Your final paragraph wasn't geared towards me, but I'll address that as well. How is Kakko not a black hole? He provides no offense. He averages a pace UNDER 32 points per season. That's disgustingly bad for someone that is not a defensive specialist. And moving onto his defense . . .

His defense is as mid as can possibly be (once again, I provided the stats to show that). Outside observers all basically think the guy can hold onto the puck and that's about it. What is he doing out there that isn't a black hole offensively? Who is he making better?

- - - - - - - - -

Basically, you had to distort stats to even try and paint a picture of Kakko not being complete ass. When the math disagreed with you, you just post some random shit about career averages when I was addressing your literal take about the last 3 seasons. Like, you're being so intellectually dishonest here it's not even funny. If you don't realize that, I have no clue what to tell you. But this is quite dishonest. Your doubling down actually makes me think this is just pure bad faith.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Sounds like he'll be staying and likely given a chance in the top 6 again, hope he uses the offseason to improve his skating and shooting

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Sounds like he'll be staying and likely given a chance in the top 6 again, hope he uses the offseason to improve his skating and shooting

We would have to have an utter failure of an offseason for Kaapo Kakko to be a Top 6 forward.

That would be disastrous and indicate we've done nothing to improve. He's done nothing to earn a shot at the top 6. Had he shown anything this season, I'd have been at least open to it.

Why just hand him a role that he's done nothing to earn and only fallen on his face when tried in it before?

If Kakko somehow becomes even a league average skater in the offseason, I guess it could happen. But that would take a metric ton of work and is something he's shown zero desire to do in the past. His skating is awful; among the worst in the league for the type of player he is. I'd be floored if he could improve substantively on that. I'll gladly eat crow, but I'd just be floored.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

We would have to have an utter failure of an offseason for Kaapo Kakko to be a Top 6 forward.

That would be disastrous and indicate we've done nothing to improve. He's done nothing to earn a shot at the top 6. Had he shown anything this season, I'd have been at least open to it.

Why just hand him a role that he's done nothing to earn and only fallen on his face when tried in it before?

Same thing was said about Lafreniere last year. A lot can happen in an offseason

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Same thing was said about Lafreniere last year. A lot can happen in an offseason

Kakko is a year older than Laf. He's been in the NHL longer. He's also shown far less. He's also put in less work than Laf. He's also done less with his ice time.

Other than them being high picks in sequential draft years, there is literally nothing about them that is alike. It's a lazy as hell comparison, too.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Kakko is a year older than Laf. He's been in the NHL longer. He's also shown far less. He's also put in less work than Laf. He's also done less with his ice time.

Other than them being high picks in sequential draft years, there is literally nothing about them that is alike. It's a lazy as hell comparison, too.

Roles were reversed the year before, everyone praising Kakko and dumping on Lafreniere, they are both still young players, power forwards are notoriously late bloomers, I'm not saying he'll be any more than he is but the risk vs reward is there for us to continue to work with him. He was drafted as a guy who could be a difference maker, he had those skills, they are still there somewhere, trade him now and get nothing of value, turn his career around and get a top 6 power forward.

 

[JCProdigy]

We may find out his value this summer. I'm not writing KK off. I do not think anyone should because he gives us just enough to say look at that a handful of times a month. With that said I am concerned. If he only becomes a 15-18 goal 35 point 3rd liner I will be disappointed.

Absolutely disappointing. Not useful though? The two teams left literally have guys on their third line with that production.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Roles were reversed the year before, everyone praising Kakko and dumping on Lafreniere, they are both still young players, power forwards are notoriously late bloomers, I'm not saying he'll be any more than he is but the risk vs reward is there for us to continue to work with him. He was drafted as a guy who could be a difference maker, he had those skills, they are still there somewhere, trade him now and get nothing of value, turn his career around and get a top 6 power forward.

So, you've now failed to tell me how these guys are in comparable situations other than (and I knew this would be the answer) they are both young. I figured this was going to be the only real comparison, but I'm almost a bit surprised you fell into that trap.

Laf and Kakko are literally nothing alike. Nothing. Laf's game, even before he took steps forward, had flashes in it that Kakko never, ever showed. Laf was maddeningly inconsistent while trying to find his game. Kakko has been consistently bad.

Laf's skating has never, ever been as bad as Kakko's, either. It's nothing special, but he has always been a better skater (without question; this is not debatable).

These situations are not comparable. Especially when you take age and experience into account.

 

[JCProdigy]

he has a tendency to not attack the net when he has puck possession, leads to controlled possession time that ends in no positive outcome.

Yep that's the observation. I've mentioned it before and even memed it. That is the biggest worry from me and what has to change for him to be consistently successful. He's allergic to the center of the ice.

Drury has to sit him down (probably has today) and have a real convo about what went wrong, why it did, and what is expected. He's got to get a good read on the situation/player and make a shrewd hockey move/decision as the GM as this is really where hay is made.

Hey maybe after the season is done Drury can call up the Panthers: Kakko for Bennett!

 

[NickyFotiu]

So, you've now failed to tell me how these guys are in comparable situations other than (and I knew this would be the answer) they are both young. I figured this was going to be the only real comparison, but I'm almost a bit surprised you fell into that trap.

Laf and Kakko are literally nothing alike. Nothing. Laf's game, even before he took steps forward, had flashes in it that Kakko never, ever showed. Laf was maddeningly inconsistent while trying to find his game. Kakko has been consistently bad.

Laf's skating has never, ever been as bad as Kakko's, either. It's nothing special, but he has always been a better skater (without question; this is not debatable).

These situations are not comparable. Especially when you take age and experience into account.

Skills aside Laf was a big time scorer before his draft. I do not think KK was ever a huge scorer. I know a previous poster implied that he was a big scorer in other leagues but I did not get a reply when I asked him to post those stats.

 

[bleedblue94]

I mean he has literally been one of the few players today who has owned it and said he wasn't good enough.

What is he supposed to say, he played great? He was literally a healthy scratch. I'm not giving props to someone who says he sucked that has repeatedly sucked for years.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Skills aside Laf was a big time scorer before his draft. I do not think KK was ever a huge scorer. I know a previous poster implied that he was a big scorer in other leagues but I did not get a reply when I asked him to post those stats.

Kakko had 38 points in 45 Liiga games as a 17 year old. That's extremely impressive. That along with his World Junior and World Championship performances are why he was the consensus number 2 (& a few who had him at 1) guy in the 2019 Draft.

Couple issues as I've mentioned previously:

1. Liiga is moderately overrated, it's not as close in quality to the SHL because the SHL gets far better imports than Liiga does and the talent base in Sweden is just deeper.

2. Because Liiga isn't as good as people think, rarely can you just throw a teenager from Liiga straight into the NHL. Look how poorly Puljujarvi, Kotkaniemi, and Kakko have developed because they got rushed into the league. Meanwhile, Rantanen, Aho, Hintz, Heiskanen, Lundell all spent more time in Liiga and or the A before becoming full time NHLers. (Laine is a unique case, he had the talent to jump straight in, but for a multitude of reasons, he hasn't added tools to his bag and thus stagnated as an NHLer)

3. Kakko was not put in great development situations by Quinn and some extent by Gallant.

4. Kakko just hasn't done enough individually to develop and grow each year.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Skills aside Laf was a big time scorer before his draft. I do not think KK was ever a huge scorer. I know a previous poster implied that he was a big scorer in other leagues but I did not get a reply when I asked him to post those stats.

Kakko did have very good Liiga stats. The issue is that we've seen a lot of Finnish guys just not be able to translate over to the NHL. We had our own Finnish bust back in the day, too. I really question the overall skill of Liiga. As said by @Hockeyville USA , I don't put Liiga on par with the SHL, KHL, etc.

What is he supposed to say, he played great? He was literally a healthy scratch. I'm not giving props to someone who says he sucked that has repeatedly sucked for years.

Bingo. Hell, it took me until this year to finally turn on Kakko. I was willing to give him every single chance under the sun. He's done nothing to earn anything else.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

So, you've now failed to tell me how these guys are in comparable situations other than (and I knew this would be the answer) they are both young. I figured this was going to be the only real comparison, but I'm almost a bit surprised you fell into that trap.

Laf and Kakko are literally nothing alike. Nothing. Laf's game, even before he took steps forward, had flashes in it that Kakko never, ever showed. Laf was maddeningly inconsistent while trying to find his game. Kakko has been consistently bad.

Laf's skating has never, ever been as bad as Kakko's, either. It's nothing special, but he has always been a better skater (without question; this is not debatable).

These situations are not comparable. Especially when you take age and experience into account.

Trap? The only trap involved here is the one you're trying to set to dismiss my argument. Kakko had a much better year last year and all of these things you are saying about Kakko were said of Lafrienere the year before, people were trading him for scraps here, everyone and their dog was lamenting that Laf wasn't a good enough skater, not enough elite skill, etc etc, and that was even being said in preseason. Confidence builds players, the Kreider line doesn't add confidence to anyone, neither does playing with Cuylle and Wennberg. He was his best when he was with Laf and Chytil, neither were available to him this year. He needs to be faster, he needs to be more confident in his size and shooting, he's still a work in progress. I'll ask you this, what do you expect to get in return for Kakko right now? I doubt we win any trade that involves him at this point. At his worst he's a 3rd line defensive player, at his best he's a top 6 powerforward, why not just wait and see, getting a 3rd rounder or a 23 year old Liga player like the Oilers did for Puijujarvi isn't going to help us more than having him in the lineup at his worst.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Trap? The only trap involved here is the one you're trying to set to dismiss my argument. Kakko had a much better year last year and all of these things you are saying about Kakko were said of Lafrienere the year before, people were trading him for scraps here, everyone and their dog was lamenting that Laf wasn't a good enough skater, not enough elite skill, etc etc, and that was even being said in preseason. Confidence builds players, the Kreider line doesn't add confidence to anyone, neither does playing with Cuylle and Wennberg. He was his best when he was with Laf and Chytil, neither were available to him this year. He needs to be faster, he needs to be more confident in his size and shooting, he's still a work in progress. I'll ask you this, what do you expect to get in return for Kakko right now? I doubt we win any trade that involves him at this point. At his worst he's a 3rd line defensive player, at his best he's a top 6 powerforward, why not just wait and see, getting a 3rd rounder or a 23 year old Liga player like the Oilers did for Puijujarvi isn't going to help us more than having him in the lineup at his worst.

The funny thing is you still can't name a single thing that Kakko does well other than possess the puck and battle along the boards, lol. Seemingly no one on here can name anything other than those two positive attributes.

Kakko has value. He should be moved for another reclamation project or a high-ceiling, low-floor type of prospect. The Avs have Oskar Olausson, for example, who could be a good guy to take a flyer on (their fans seem to be OK with a Kakko for Olausson swap). Former first rounder (exponentially better skater than Kakko); 21 months younger than Kakko.

There are players around the league who could fit that bill. He's just one of them.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Kakko had 38 points in 45 Liiga games as a 17 year old. That's extremely impressive. That along with his World Junior and World Championship performances are why he was the consensus number 2 (& a few who had him at 1) guy in the 2019 Draft.

Couple issues as I've mentioned previously:

1. Liiga is moderately overrated, it's not as close in quality to the SHL because the SHL gets far better imports than Liiga does and the talent base in Sweden is just deeper.

2. Because Liiga isn't as good as people think, rarely can you just throw a teenager from Liiga straight into the NHL. Look how poorly Puljujarvi, Kotkaniemi, and Kakko have developed because they got rushed into the league. Meanwhile, Rantanen, Aho, Hintz, Heiskanen, Lundell all spent more time in Liiga and or the A before becoming full time NHLers. (Laine is a unique case, he had the talent to jump straight in, but for a multitude of reasons, he hasn't added tools to his bag and thus stagnated as an NHLer)

3. Kakko was not put in great development situations by Quinn and some extent by Gallant.

4. Kakko just hasn't done enough individually to develop and grow each year.

I understand they are different leagues but 38 points in 45 games may not be as huge scoring as 112 points in 52 games. Usually guys that score over 100 points in 50 games have a different kind of mentality. I know their will always be outliers. Im just speaking generally.

In the WJC-20 KK had 5 points in 7 games.

In the WJC-20 Laf had 10 points in 5 games.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Kakko did have very good Liiga stats. The issue is that we've seen a lot of Finnish guys just not be able to translate over to the NHL. We had our own Finnish bust back in the day, too. I really question the overall skill of Liiga. As said by @Hockeyville USA , I don't put Liiga on par with the SHL, KHL, etc.


Bingo. Hell, it took me until this year to finally turn on Kakko. I was willing to give him every single chance under the sun. He's done nothing to earn anything else.

I hope he does become a huge scorer. I just dont see it in the stats or play so far. Hopefully it comes soon. We definitely need much more top end scoring.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I hope he does become a huge scorer. I just dont see it in the stats or play so far. Hopefully it comes soon. We definitely need much more top end scoring.

There's like a 1-2% chance he ever becomes a big scorer at this point.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

The funny thing is you still can't name a single thing that Kakko does well other than possess the puck and battle along the boards, lol. Seemingly no one on here can name anything other than those two positive attributes.

Kakko has value. He should be moved for another reclamation project or a high-ceiling, low-floor type of prospect. The Avs have Oskar Olausson, for example, who could be a good guy to take a flyer on (their fans seem to be OK with a Kakko for Olausson swap). Former first rounder (exponentially better skater than Kakko); 21 months younger than Kakko.

There are players around the league who could fit that bill. He's just one of them.

You tell me he's garbage and then tell me he has value, but then go on to tell me we should trade him for some other teams underwhelming player...I dont know why he has to be traded to begin with if that's all we are getting for him, worst case scenario he's a decent 3rd line player. He had 40 points the previous season, 18 goals, those didn't just fall out of the sky. He had a bad year, I agree but dumping him because he had a blip in his progression is silly. He's a big body, protects the puck well, has a good shot even if he doesn't use it near enough but needs to work on his speed, needs some confidence and needs to trust his skills. Those are all things that can be and will be worked on, the attributes he currently is good at aren't ones that are as easily teachable, you can't teach big. Go back and look at Kreiders stats, his early years aren't that impressive, not far from the 40 points Kakko got last year, it took him time, it might take Kakko time and if it doesn't then he can protect the puck and use his possession skills to wear teams down on the 3rd line and learn to become a useful defensive minded player.

 

[klingsor]

I like Kakko.

Please trade him for wharevrr.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

I understand they are different leagues but 38 points in 45 games may not be as huge scoring as 112 points in 52 games. Usually guys that score over 100 points in 50 games have a different kind of mentality. I know their will always be outliers. Im just speaking generally.

In the WJC-20 KK had 5 points in 7 games.

In the WJC-20 Laf had 10 points in 5 games.

38 points in 45 games for a 17 year old in a league of 25-35 year old pro players is extremely impressive, whereas 112 points in 52 games for an 18 year old in the shittiest major junior league in Canada against a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds is impressive, but less so when you put it that way.

Kakko played in that World Junior in his 17 year old season. Lafreniere's best World Junior was in his 18 year old season, his 17 year old season World Junior was underwhelming at best, shitty at worst.

 

[JCProdigy]

38 points in 45 games for a 17 year old in a league of 25-35 year old pro players is extremely impressive, whereas 112 points in 52 games for an 18 year old in the shittiest major junior league in Canada against a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds is impressive, but less so when you put it that way.

Kakko played in that World Junior in his 17 year old season. Lafreniere's best World Junior was in his 18 year old season, his 17 year old season World Junior was underwhelming at best, shitty at worst.

Yeah, even if you look at all the best Finnish forwards playing right now, think Rantanen, Barkov, Hintz, Aho and/or just high Finnish draft picks like Laine, Kotkaniemi, and Puljujarvi, none had a PPG in Liiga in their draft year. That's not the problem/indicator of anything.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Hopefully the fanbase and media are just as successful driving Kakko away as they were Lafreniere.

The problem with this team is obviously that our core group of veterans isn't good enough when games get tough. The problem is not that our defensively elite 3rd liner, former 2OA hasn't managed to break out offensively yet.

I would be shocked if we get a fair return for Kakko in a trade; just sign him and enjoy having other teams not score goals while he's on the ice. It's so f***ing simple