Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

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NickyFotiu

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38 points in 45 games for a 17 year old in a league of 25-35 year old pro players is extremely impressive, whereas 112 points in 52 games for an 18 year old in the shittiest major junior league in Canada against a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds is impressive, but less so when you put it that way.

Kakko played in that World Junior in his 17 year old season. Lafreniere's best World Junior was in his 18 year old season, his 17 year old season World Junior was underwhelming at best, shitty at worst.
Im not meaning to directly compare the stats of different leagues. Im just speaking about the mentality. Usually the guys that put up insane numbers have a different mentality. It doesn't mean they have the skill to match that mentality in the nhl but they did have the mentality. Let me try to explain. I don't see that hunger to score mentality as of yet in KK so if KK played 82 games in the AHL in 2023-24 I still don't think he would have scored 35 goals or 70 points.
 
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KingDeathMetal

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1. Yes - it is absolutely dishonest to sit there and say the guy was close to 40 points two seasons in a row. I literally did the f***ing math and showed you were wrong. You really want to double down on this stuff? You want to disprove math or something?

I guess Kakko is immune to math. He transcends numbers (that his supporters lie about or miscalculate)!

2. 40 points is a number he's hit once in his career. He was way off that pace this year and the year before, he was nearly 20% off that pace (no matter how much you want to purposefully try and distort the literal math that disagrees with you). You'll sit there and claim that "Oh, 6 points isn't that far off from 40!" all while ignoring that it's just about 20% off that pace. A significant figure for a guy who doesn't put up points.

Come on indeed. Learn how math works. I shouldn't have had to do a follow-up post. Your entire post should've been an admission you were wrong, but I digress.

3. Your final paragraph wasn't geared towards me, but I'll address that as well. How is Kakko not a black hole? He provides no offense. He averages a pace UNDER 32 points per season. That's disgustingly bad for someone that is not a defensive specialist. And moving onto his defense . . .

His defense is as mid as can possibly be (once again, I provided the stats to show that). Outside observers all basically think the guy can hold onto the puck and that's about it. What is he doing out there that isn't a black hole offensively? Who is he making better?

- - - - - - - - -

Basically, you had to distort stats to even try and paint a picture of Kakko not being complete ass. When the math disagreed with you, you just post some random shit about career averages when I was addressing your literal take about the last 3 seasons. Like, you're being so intellectually dishonest here it's not even funny. If you don't realize that, I have no clue what to tell you. But this is quite dishonest. Your doubling down actually makes me think this is just pure bad faith.

Before last season, when he battled injury, Kakko as a 20 and 21 year old averaged 0.42 and 0.49 pts per game. That's a 34 and 40 pt pace over 82 games. It's not unreasonable to assume that a 22 year old player is going to exceed those numbers EVER SO F*KING SLIGHTLY for the majority of his most productive seasons which will come in his mid and late 20s, like every other player.

Look, this is a dumb argument. 40 pts isn't an unreasonable expectation for Kakko. I get being too high on him and expecting him to be what we thought, but being like "Uh, he aint even a 40 pt guy for his career, bet on it!" is wildly underrating what he brings. Forget 40 pts, I'll go so far as to say I think Kakko eventually becomes a 50-60 pt guy who gets the odd Selke vote here and there.

His possession numbers for his career are pretty damn good. Every line he's on, drives possession. These are facts, dude. He's a very good defensive player, also a fact. Kakko has everything you want in a middle six forward. But he's not a finisher in front of the net, so it has severely limited his offensive potential.

These aren't controversial views, man. Kakko is not remotely close to a bad player. He's incredibly useful. Just because he's not Matthew freaking Tkachuk doesn't mean he sucks and has no value. If the Rangers make him available, at his likely AAV of 2.5-3m, teams will be lined up to make him their third line RW.

You tell me he's garbage and then tell me he has value, but then go on to tell me we should trade him for some other teams underwhelming player...I dont know why he has to be traded to begin with if that's all we are getting for him, worst case scenario he's a decent 3rd line player. He had 40 points the previous season, 18 goals, those didn't just fall out of the sky. He had a bad year, I agree but dumping him because he had a blip in his progression is silly. He's a big body, protects the puck well, has a good shot even if he doesn't use it near enough but needs to work on his speed, needs some confidence and needs to trust his skills. Those are all things that can be and will be worked on, the attributes he currently is good at aren't ones that are as easily teachable, you can't teach big. Go back and look at Kreiders stats, his early years aren't that impressive, not far from the 40 points Kakko got last year, it took him time, it might take Kakko time and if it doesn't then he can protect the puck and use his possession skills to wear teams down on the 3rd line and learn to become a useful defensive minded player.

But "All he does is possess the puck and battle along the boards!" He can't play on our third line at low AAV with that skillset. Dump him for a bag of chips!
 
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SeanAveryTheGreatOne

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I know I'm in the minority, but I still hope they resign him. And I especially hope they lock him up long-term at a steal like <$3M.

A lot of people are giving him flack for not fitting in on the first line, but to be frank, Kreider and Mika were atrocious 5v5 all year, and Mika's contract is about to really hurt.
 

KingDeathMetal

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Fair. But He scored 40 5v5 points at 22. I see no reason 35pts is his new ceiling.

BINGO. People wanting to give up on a 22 year old player who seemed to be turning the corner heading into last season and looked so good at the end of his 40 pt season that Laviolette put him on the top line to start the next season, is crazy.

I've said before, I think with his contract coming up and the Igor and Laf deals needing to get done, Kakko is in a position where its make or break. If we didnt have Othmann and Perreault in the system, I'd say retaining Kakko at a low AAV would be the way to go. But it doesn't make financial sense to keep him unless he signs the low AAV deal AND THEN proceeds to take the big next step we've been waiting for. So why not sign him for $3m for 2 years, start him on the top line again to begin the season, and let him play his value up while. If he doesn't, there are a bunch of expiring deals out there (including Buchnevich) who are elite players and can serve as excellent rentals. Absolute worst case scenario, Kakko just produces his career averages for a couple months before a trade, and we're in no worse position than we were at the start of last season.
 

NickyFotiu

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I know I'm in the minority, but I still hope they resign him. And I especially hope they lock him up long-term at a steal like <$3M.

A lot of people are giving him flack for not fitting in on the first line, but to be frank, Kreider and Mika were atrocious 5v5 all year, and Mika's contract is about to really hurt.
If KK signed for under $3 mill long term that would be a really poor sign in my eyes. That would tell me that he doesn't believe in his ability to raise his game.
 
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bhamill

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This isnt a "lost" season as if this is some kind of outlier.

We have watched him for 5 years now and he is essentially the same player he was halfway through his rookie season with no noticeable trajectory of skill or production.

People keep trying to prop his ppg and such at even strength, just watch the games. He is a net negative to any offensive/offensive zone production and it sucks. I hate dumping on him, but it is the truth. No finish, no elite skill. out of this referenced ppg I wonder how many are primary points? The kakko evolution is what we saw on a different scale with lias andersson, those that would defend him and then toss up hyperbole whenever there was a glimmer of light.

I literally cant think of anything he did to stand out in the playoffs except one power shift after he was benched where he had a dominant possession shift (of course all along the wall) and then tossed the puck into the slot blindly to the other team. His post season was tripping over his own feet attemping a toe drag, running into an official and getting laid out, and constant flubbing of pucks on rushes or even when trying to just dump the puck into the O zone.

Other players were terrible as well, but they had moments. Kakko was like this almost all season, again...

That Finnish aura of confidence is starting to evolve to arrogance and looking like someone that doesn't see the need or space for himself to improve, or maybe this is just what we have. Either way it is close to done here, because how can the org even justify giving him a raise on the next contract besides feeling obligated to based on his age? His play certainly does not justify it and he is going to want some money and a specific role which no one can give him since he failed with it this season
Lost doesn’t mean “outlier” it basically means wasted in the context I was using it. He started slow scoring wise, suffered a major knee injury and ended up scoring at a 0.3ppg pace.
Look everyone is frustrated and disappointed, including me, because he WAS a 2OA, but he also scored 0.5ppg last year at 22 and plays a really good defensive and possession game. IMO giving him a 2.4mil QO to see what he can do next season is much better asset management than trading him for a 2nd or whatever.
You are free to have a completely different take on it.
 

bhamill

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I mean he has literally been one of the few players today who has owned it and said he wasn't good enough.
Yeah, neatly “aurora of confidence” is not a phrase I would have ever imagined being used to describe Kakko. He seems almost painfully introverted. Hahaha.
 

bleedblue94

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Lost doesn’t mean “outlier” it basically means wasted in the context I was using it. He started slow scoring wise, suffered a major knee injury and ended up scoring at a 0.3ppg pace.
Look everyone is frustrated and disappointed, including me, because he WAS a 2OA, but he also scored 0.5ppg last year at 22 and plays a really good defensive and possession game. IMO giving him a 2.4mil QO to see what he can do next season is much better asset management than trading him for a 2nd or whatever.
You are free to have a completely different take on it.
This narrative about his possession game also needs to change bc of you watch him he will hold the puck and then literally toss it away like a grenade. I do disagree with you. 5 years of excuses is wearing out.
 

McRanger92

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Same thing was said about Lafreniere last year. A lot can happen in an offseason

Same thing was said about Kakko….the last 2 years

Some people just need scapegoats and want to sacrifice a lamb to the god of hockey trades and contracts.

Keep him, he'll be cheap and a long shot from any of the bazillion albatross contracts.

The forwards on albatross contracts are actually good players though
 

DevilDog99

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I think if he learned to be a power forward- ie driving to the net with power, he would be a 25g30a55pt guy.

That said… I don’t see that happen. He doesnt have the personality for that and how do you teach that? He was scratched and given those instructions (how embarrassing) and he was EXACTLY the same afterwards.

He has the same fire as Zbad. They both would be better off going back to play in Finland- they would be superstars there.

Not a single ball between the two of them.

*correction- WE would be better off. They make way more money here*
 

Hunter Gathers

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Before last season, when he battled injury, Kakko as a 20 and 21 year old averaged 0.42 and 0.49 pts per game. That's a 34 and 40 pt pace over 82 games. It's not unreasonable to assume that a 22 year old player is going to exceed those numbers EVER SO F*KING SLIGHTLY for the majority of his most productive seasons which will come in his mid and late 20s, like every other player.

You sure use a lot of words to just admit you were wrong about the math.

Don't post shit without checking first. Pretty simple lesson for you. Your math was bad, you doubled down on it, and now you're tripling down on it instead of just admitting you can't do math.

I mean, at least now you're showing me you are just purely acting in bad faith at this point. I can't fathom you still don't get why you're wrong. You stretched the truth with the math and got called out for it. Stop crying.

Same thing was said about Kakko….the last 2 years

Yep. It's such a hilariously lazy comparison to make. Notice how none of these guys can actually say why they are in similar circumstances?

They throw out this lazy comparison and then they can't defend it.
 

McRanger92

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You sure use a lot of words to just admit you were wrong about the math.

Don't post shit without checking first. Pretty simple lesson for you. Your math was bad, you doubled down on it, and now you're tripling down on it instead of just admitting you can't do math.

I mean, at least now you're showing me you are just purely acting in bad faith at this point. I can't fathom you still don't get why you're wrong. You stretched the truth with the math and got called out for it. Stop crying.



Yep. It's such a hilariously lazy comparison to make. Notice how none of these guys can actually say why they are in similar circumstances?

They throw out this lazy comparison and then they can't defend it.

It's batshit crazy that people want to give kakko a 3rd last chance because he finally admitted he was the problem. And they want all the core vets gone because they arent admitting they are gutless losers like the fanbase wants them to.

People can make up any story about kakko that helps them sleep at night but the fact of the matter is, we've lost 2 ECFs and in both the coaches had literally no answer with what to do at the top 6 wing. It's been ignored for too long so a plug like Kakko could "get his opportunity", fail, and then leave management in a position to have to trade assets to replace him.
 

McRanger

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There has been something physically and mentally off with Kakko from pretty much his very first day with the team. The kid we drafted who had the size and speed and talent to play against men in Liiga or the WC at such a young age and be productive was replaced by a guy who has never really looked comfortable or capable of doing much of anything.

I've seen plenty of prospects fail for plenty of reasons. Games that don't translate, injuries, attitude, etc. I don't think I have ever seen a highly touted prospect simply stop being everything that made them be a highly touted prospect. It's like Adam Fox showing up to his first camp and suddenly he is no longer literate.

I don't want to ditch Kakko just because he's not what we wanted when we drafted him, I'm fine with Kakko as a bottom six winger. He'll probably continue to improve as a bottom six winger with age and experience; I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up an excellent PKer one day. But the idea he might becomes more than that... I just don't see. I want to but I just don't.
 

IDvsEGO

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It's batshit crazy that people want to give kakko a 3rd last chance because he finally admitted he was the problem. And they want all the core vets gone because they arent admitting they are gutless losers like the fanbase wants them to.

People can make up any story about kakko that helps them sleep at night but the fact of the matter is, we've lost 2 ECFs and in both the coaches had literally no answer with what to do at the top 6 wing. It's been ignored for too long so a plug like Kakko could "get his opportunity", fail, and then leave management in a position to have to trade assets to replace him.
“Kakko admitted he was the problem”
Kakko said he got an opportunity and didn’t produce.
God damn can people please learn some reading comprehension.
Those two things are not the same.
Where’s ck’s production?
Where was Mika’s production?
 
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McRanger92

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“Kakko admitted he was the problem”
Kakko said he got an opportunity and didn’t produce.
God damn can people please learn some reading comprehension.
Those two things are not the same.
Where’s ck’s production?
Where was Mika’s production?

We're throwing a parade for 19 even strength points from Kakko but complaining about 70 point seasons from Mika and Kreider. Does anyone want to improve the team or just count the moral victories for Kakko?
 

bhamill

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This narrative about his possession game also needs to change bc of you watch him he will hold the puck and then literally toss it away like a grenade. I do disagree with you. 5 years of excuses is wearing out.
I'm not sure what excuses you are talking about. I'm personally not excusing anything. Came right out and said I was frustrated and disappointed...
My only point, and it's a hill I'll die on in general, is you don't let emotions like frustration and disappointment make your business decisions... to that point, I wouldn't trade him unless we get at least the value you should for a 23 year old coming off of an injury plagued 0.3ppg season, who scored 40 5v5 points in 80 games at 22 years old with very good defense and very good possession metrics (whether you agree or not, the numbers are the numbers).
I mean I'm literally just saying NYR should make sure they get value for him if they are going to trade him, and if not give him a one year "show me" contract at his QO of 2.4mil... not a very wild take in my opinion, buddy.
 
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bhamill

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Same thing was said about Kakko….the last 2 years



The forwards on albatross contracts are actually good players though
Could've sworn most everyone was saying Kakko had "arrived" prior to this year and were using it to put down Laf... hahaha.

Good players on albatross contracts are bad VALUE though. (really, in the reg season only Trouba and Zibs were what I'd call a really bad value) The question is if Kakko rebounds to 40 5v5 points and keeps his defense and possession numbers, which is CERTAINLY not out of the question, is he a good value at 2.4milish?
I still think he'll be a good player, the kind you win with, but I'm fine trading him as long as they can get value. ESPECIALLY if they can get a young Dman in the same tier.
 
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McRanger92

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Could've sworn most everyone was saying Kakko had "arrived" prior to this year and were using it to put down Laf... hahaha.

Good players on albatross contracts are bad VALUE though. (really, in the reg season only Trouba and Zibs were what I'd call a really bad value) The question is if Kakko rebounds to 40 5v5 points and keeps his defense and possession numbers, which is CERTAINLY not out of the question, is he a good value at 2.4milish?
I still think he'll be a good player, the kind you win with, but I'm fine trading him as long as they can get value. ESPECIALLY if they can get a young Dman in the same tier.

Brooks talking about moving on from him as part of a package for an upgrade. Seems like a no brainer to me.
 
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bhamill

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Brooks talking about moving on from him as part of a package for an upgrade. Seems like a no brainer to me.
I mean sure, as long as it's an upgrade we get at good value, if you get my drift. Not an overpayment. Any move to upgrade areas that were lacking is a great idea as long as we don't overpay too much. Sometimes you have to "overpay", just dont waste assets.
 
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IDvsEGO

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We're throwing a parade for 19 even strength points from Kakko but complaining about 70 point seasons from Mika and Kreider. Does anyone want to improve the team or just count the moral victories for Kakko?
Did I say I was throwing a parade?
I was saying when the line played together somehow Mika and Ck couldn’t produce anything at all. Like they produced more 2 years ago with hunt as their rw. And to be clear If you think hunt is a better player than Kakko, we have absolutely nothing to talk about.

Mika and Ck had 60-70 point seasons but were on one of the top 5 power plays in the nhl. They should’ve been 70-90 points.
And look, that’s the same missing production that Kakko could’ve had…
 

McRanger92

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Did I say I was throwing a parade?
I was saying when the line played together somehow Mika and Ck couldn’t produce anything at all. Like they produced more 2 years ago with hunt as their rw. And to be clear If you think hunt is a better player than Kakko, we have absolutely nothing to talk about.

Mika and Ck had 60-70 point seasons but were on one of the top 5 power plays in the nhl. They should’ve been 70-90 points.
And look, that’s the same missing production that Kakko could’ve had…

Ill tell you right now we wouldnt have a top 5 PP with Kakko on it.
 
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