SprDaVE
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- Sep 20, 2008
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The vitriol he gets is insane. There's always 1 player that gets insane amount of hate on this team, but this is new levels.
Speculation: Justin Holl Discussion Thread
- Thread starter ottomaddox
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If he wasn't playing, he wouldn't be receiving the vitriol.
The real anger should be focused on Keefe and his decision to play Holl over arguably our best defenseman down the stretch of the season.
Simmons is a classless little twirp, but the question, albeit asked in a classless way, needed to be asked.
you don't remember the Gardiner days? The hate Holl gets is justified. He has poor positioning, slow to react, soft, panics under pressure, takes dumb penalties. I feel more comfortable with Lyubushkin out there and that's saying something
SprDaVE
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Holl has been good defensively in harder minutes. Liljegren coming out isn't THAT big of a deal and has not been our best defenseman this season. He's really good in pretty soft minutes and a big part of this team moving forward, whereas Holl plays a lot of tough defensive minutes.
People equating that loss on Holl is absurd and this is what is happening.
SprDaVE
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No, it isn't justified and Gardiner got wrongfully hated far too much as well.
For the record, I wouldn't have played Holl instead of Liljegren either. But people losing their minds on that game just because he did play is really something.
Nah, it's not. It's actually the first time I can remember a defenseman that actually screws up this way getting the hate, rather than the fanbase scapegoating someone else.
I don't hate Holl, and I was one of the few pushing for Babcock to put him in.
Having said that, playing him in favor of Liljegren was and is a stupid decision. Starting him at the beginning of the game, against Tampa's top line, in a game that Tampa was guaranteed to come out like gangbusters was a stupid decision by Keefe.
I don't hate Holl, but he is being misused, and absolutely not being put into situations for which he is suited.
Lilijgren is a part of our future and has a higher upside and ceiling than Holl.
The anger I have is what Holl represents: stupid decisions by Management: losing McCann at the Expansion Draft to keep Holl, and stifling Liljegren's development, when he is clearly the better player and a part of our team long-term
Having said that, playing him in favor of Liljegren was and is a stupid decision. Starting him at the beginning of the game, against Tampa's top line, in a game that Tampa was guaranteed to come out like gangbusters was a stupid decision by Keefe.
I don't hate Holl, but he is being misused, and absolutely not being put into situations for which he is suited.
Lilijgren is a part of our future and has a higher upside and ceiling than Holl.
The anger I have is what Holl represents: stupid decisions by Management: losing McCann at the Expansion Draft to keep Holl, and stifling Liljegren's development, when he is clearly the better player and a part of our team long-term
Yup and it's not even justified really.
Some stats I compiled from a different thread:
5v5 xGF% REL:
1. Holl
2. Brodie
3. Muzzin
4. Giordano
5. Rielly
6. Boosh
7. Liljegen
5v5 GF%: REL:
1. Brodie
2. Muzzin
3. Holl
4. Giordano
5. Liljegren
6. Rielly
7. Boosh
Just Defensively:
Fewest Expected Goals Against/60 5v5 REL:
1. Holl
2. Brodie
3. Muzzin
4. Giordano
5. Rielly
6. Liljegren
7. Boosh
Fewest Goals Against/60 5v5 REL:
1. Holl
2. Muzzin
3. Brodie
4. Giordano
5. Rielly
6. Liljegren
7. Boosh
Fewest Goals Against REL on the PK:
1. Holl
2. Liljegren
3. Rielly
4. Giordano
5. Muzzin
6. Brodie
7. Boosh
5v5 oZone starts:
1. Giordano: 27%
2. Boosh: 27%
3. Holl: 33%
4. Brodie: 39%
5. Muzzin: 39%
6. Liljegren: 40%
7. Rielly: 44%
Fewest Giveaways/60 (All situations):
1. Holl
2. Rielly
2. Brodie
4. Muzzin
5. Boosh
6. Giordano
7. Liljegen
Fewest Goals Against/60 (All situations):
1. Liljegren
2. Holl
3. Giordano
4. Rielly
5. Brodie
6. Muzzin
7. Boosh
Minor penalties taken (all situations):
1. Liljegren: 0
2. Rielly: 0
3. Holl: 1
4. Giordano: 1
5. Muzzin: 1
6. Brodie: 2
7. Boosh: 4
Total goals given up on the ice: all dmen on both teams in the playoffs so far (all situations):
Liljegren: 1
Holl: 1
Foote: 1
Ruuta: 1
Giordano: 3
Bogo: 3
Boosh: 4
Cernak: 4
Rielly: 5
McDonagh:5
Sergachev: 5
Brodie: 6
Muzzin: 6
Hedman: 8
I could see why they pulled Liljegren out as he had a truly awful game 2 (worse than any Holl game so far, thats for sure) but I'm not against putting him back in. Defensive depth is one of the teams strengths.
Whats bad about the Holl hate is that he has actually had a decent series so far as a depth D. The Tampa PP has scored 0 goals with him on a pairing and he's only been on the ice for one goal against otherwise (and an even +/- after 2 games). Good analytics, good end results and a legion certain fans ignoring anything he does well in order to justify their hatred and it just reinforces the worst elements of the classless side of Toronto sports media and we get one of the worst questions ever asked at a press conference. How the hell does a stupid question like that help the team?
I'll say it again. Holl hasnt even been close to the "worst" dman on the team. He's actually been pretty effective...just like literally every stat fancy or not says he has.
lebdafor norris
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Holl has been on ice for exactly 1 goals against on Even strength during his 2 playoff games but from what is being posted here, you would think that Holl is responsible for half the goals Tampa scored during the previous 2 games. Lybushkin has easily been worst, if anyone needs to be in the hot seat its him.
zeke
The Dube Abides
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Yup. And the goal he was on the ice for wasn't exactly a great scoring chance, and would have been a pretty straightforward save.
And of course the nerd numbers also agree that he's actually been the best defensively of the dmen so far.
And while I agree that Boosh is the bigger problem, it's also true that Lilly really got targeted in game 2 and has the worst numbers (offensively and defensively) of any of the dmen so far., even with the easier matchups.
And with Holl in to help take the tough matchups, and now at home with the last change, Keefe should be able to shelter Boosh more than he has in any other game this series, so that might help.
Maplebeasts
I See Demons!!!!!
What I'm getting from this is Boosh should be the one sitting. Physicality or not he just gets destroyed.
Dreakmur
Registered User
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lebdafor norris
sleepy
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I did notice that Lily has struggled defensively and that his surface numbers has been fairly lucky considering his struggles with the Colton line but I haven't realized till now that he struggled offensively as well, but I still wouldn't be oppose to switching Boosh for him. Either way, it would be a huge mistake if Keefe ends up benching Holl as Holl shouldn't have sat game 1 and 2 in the first place, luckily it looks like Holl is staying in the lineup.
Keefe is not wrong.
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SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
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I don't think anyone would disagree that Liljegren should get another shot in our lineup.
It just should be that it comes at Lyubushkin's expense. There should not be any discussion about taking Holl out of this lineup, and the fact that Keefe has had to spend so much time justifying a decision which is clearly the right one is mindboggling.
I would love to see what Rielly-Liljegren could do together, and it is such an easy decision on so many levels. Lyubushkin has sucked. He is Rielly's partner. It is a straight swap and everything else on our defense which has actually worked out fairly well in this series can remain the same.
I just can’t believe this. The one year where we have a complete defense core that can compete with the best and we choose to scratch one of our best and play the one guy that is a borderline disaster against good teams.
His corsi/xGF doesn’t matter when he is guaranteed to make 2 plays per game that are directly responsible for goals against.
His corsi/xGF doesn’t matter when he is guaranteed to make 2 plays per game that are directly responsible for goals against.
zeke
The Dube Abides
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People want to keep a worse D in the game (Lub) for one aspect of his game but think it is insanity for Holl to be in even if it is only for one aspect of his game (still better than Lub at 5v5).
Brodie makes everyone better while Rielly makes everyone worse. People who dunk on Bush clearly don’t understand this.
Rielly pinches at every opportunity, lacks defensive awareness, and just generally makes poor reads. He’s still a good player, but he’s not easy to play with.
Dreakmur
Registered User
He can’t take him out after Simmonds’ question… unless you’re never going to use him again and trade him in the off season.
Watch the damn games.
You’re completely ignoring him getting walked in game 3 like a moron and taking a penalty leading to a goal against. Not to mention his other boneheaded giveaways, terrible pinch decisions, and god awful line changes that have led to goals. Then there are the little things like failing easy clears which leads to extended shifts that contribute to team fatigue.
Leafs fans aren’t idiots. There is a reason why 99% of people can’t stand seeing him
play and it’s not just social media uproar. Anecdotally, I visited my father who’s a massive leafs fan and doesn’t even have social media… even he says the guy sucks.
