Speculation: Justin Holl Discussion Thread

[napoleon in rags]

Witty reply: "I dunno... why does the toronto sun keep sending its worst reporter to ask inflammatory questions?"

 

[Dreakmur]

Witty reply: "I dunno... why does the toronto sun keep sending its worst reporter to ask inflammatory questions?"

The guy was scratched to start the series. Keefe obviously thinks he’s worse than the other 5.

 

[napoleon in rags]

The guy was scratched to start the series. Keefe obviously thinks he’s worse than the other 5.

The point was the manner in which the question was posed. Surely you're not that obtuse?

 

[Clark4Ever]

Holl certainly wasn't the only culprit last night, but Keefe would be out of his mind to put him back in considering his plus/minus in the 2 games he's played.

 

[PromisedLand]

Gotta justify the "protection" spot for Holl

 

[Dreakmur]

The point was the manner in which the question was posed. Surely you're not that obtuse?

Oh, it was less a question and more of a trap, but Keefe sucks and should get called out a lot more than he does.

 

[Buds17]

The guy was scratched to start the series. Keefe obviously thinks he’s worse than the other 5.

I'm not as certain of Keefe's thought process here. Lyubushkin averages less time than either of Liljegren or Holl but has played in all of the games thus far.

 

[Dreakmur]

I'm not as certain of Keefe's thought process here. Lyubushkin averages less time than either of Liljegren or Holl but has played in all of the games thus far.

Lyubushkin has a more limited role, but he provides something unique enough to be more valuable.

 

[A1LeafNation]

I think the odd man out is bush for game 5.

Reilly Brodie
Muzzin Holl
Giordano Liljegren

 

[Buds17]

Lyubushkin has a more limited role, but he provides something unique enough to be more valuable.

I can agree that Lyubushkin brings something to the blueline that is otherwise in relatively short supply. I just feel as though there's somewhat of a cap placed upon that element when his role is as limited as it has been.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I can agree that Lyubushkin brings something to the blueline that is otherwise in relatively short supply. I just feel that there's somewhat of a cap placed on that element when his role is as limited as it has been.

Sure, Lyubushkin is better than most at hitting people, but it doesn't help when that is literally all he can do and it is certainly not in short enough supply where it justifies a complete liability in every other manner.

He can't PK. He can't move the puck. He can't stop the cycle. He can't handle any kind of forecheck. He is not stopping high danger chances. He brings no offense. He takes terrible penalties. Heck even in scuffles he is not exactly keeping anyone honest. Hitting is all he brings.

How many times has his hitting really made an impact on the game? If we want a guy who brings some hits, we will just put Clifford/Simmonds in. At least they will keep someone honest and pound a b****. Hitting is useless if it doesn't help you do something else, and it clearly is not for Lyubushkin.

I think the odd man out is bush for game 5.

Reilly Brodie
Muzzin Holl
Giordano Liljegren

This is the lineup that we should be using, but I think it can rotate a lot. I think the base pairings I would use would be:

Rielly - Liljegren
Muzzin - Brodie
Giordano - Holl

Rielly has sucked with Lyubushkin and hasn't played much with Liljegren in the playoffs but you can't deny these numbers:

56.52 CF%
61.5 GF%
63.83 xGF%
56 HDCF%
60 HDGF%

with 53 OZS% and 150 ES minutes during the regular season.

Give Rielly and Liljegren as many offensive minutes as you can and hope they can generate as much offense as possible, but I am more confident in Liljegren being able to defend right now more than I am Lyubushkin anyways. It honestly can't get much worse at either end and there is a ton of promise from the regular season.

 

[IPS]

Lyubhushkin hasn't been scratched for a very good reason and I doubt Keefe will ever scratch him. Yes he plays too high in the lineup but it's not his fault. Our D is already too soft for Tampa, without Boosh it would be horrible.

but I am more confident in Liljegren being able to defend right now more than I am Lyubushkin anyways.

Doesn't sound like Keefe is.

 

[IPS]

I'm not as certain of Keefe's thought process here. Lyubushkin averages less time than either of Liljegren or Holl but has played in all of the games thus far.

Boosh plays about what Bogosian and Foote play for Tampa. Basically the same role. The problem is is that Tampa's top D have crease clearing ability unlike ours, so they can use their physical D more appropriately.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Sure, Lyubushkin is better than most at hitting people, but it doesn't help when that is literally all he can do and it is certainly not in short enough supply where it justifies a complete liability in every other manner.

He can't PK. He can't move the puck. He can't stop the cycle. He can't handle any kind of forecheck. He is not stopping high danger chances. He brings no offense. He takes terrible penalties. Heck even in scuffles he is not exactly keeping anyone honest. Hitting is all he brings.

How many times has his hitting really made an impact on the game? If we want a guy who brings some hits, we will just put Clifford/Simmonds in. At least they will keep someone honest and pound a b****. Hitting is useless if it doesn't help you do something else, and it clearly is not for Lyubushkin.



This is the lineup that we should be using, but I think it can rotate a lot. I think the base pairings I would use would be:

Rielly - Liljegren
Muzzin - Brodie
Giordano - Holl

Rielly has sucked with Lyubushkin and hasn't played much with Liljegren in the playoffs but you can't deny these numbers:

56.52 CF%
61.5 GF%
63.83 xGF%
56 HDCF%
60 HDGF%

with 53 OZS% and 150 ES minutes during the regular season.

Give Rielly and Liljegren as many offensive minutes as you can and hope they can generate as much offense as possible, but I am more confident in Liljegren being able to defend right now more than I am Lyubushkin anyways. It honestly can't get much worse at either end and there is a ton of promise from the regular season.

I almost feel it should be our best top 4 for 50min in game 5.

Muzzin Brodie
Giordano Rielly
______ Holl (10 min against bottom 6)

Liljegren/Bush/Sandin

 

[BayStBullies]

Holl certainly wasn't the only culprit last night, but Keefe would be out of his mind to put him back in considering his plus/minus in the 2 games he's played.

Not out of his mind; out of his depth.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Boosh plays about what Bogosian and Foote play for Tampa. Basically the same role. The problem is is that Tampa's top D have crease clearing ability unlike ours, so they can use their physical D more appropriately.

Lyubhushkin hasn't been scratched for a very good reason and I doubt Keefe will ever scratch him. Yes he plays too high in the lineup but it's not his fault. Our D is already too soft for Tampa, without Boosh it would be horrible.


Doesn't sound like Keefe is.

Lyubushkin has been doing a pretty **** job at clearing the crease so I am not exactly sure how that is a justification for keeping him in the lineup.

And not being able to do anything right is pretty much his fault. He already barely plays as it is, and he sucks when he does. Our "too soft" D are doing a much better job defending against Tampa than he is, so either it doesn't matter that they are soft, or they are not that soft. Either way, there is no good reason to have Lyubushkin in our lineup right now, because physicality on its own is not a good enough reason, even in the playoffs.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I almost feel it should be our best top 4 for 50min in game 5.

Muzzin Brodie
Giordano Rielly
______ Holl (10 min against bottom 6)

Liljegren/Bush/Sandin

Holl has been playing 15 minutes per night over the last two games. That should be the least amount he plays. You can't be having those two pairings, with guys like Giordano and Muzzin on it no less, playing that kind of minutes. It is simply not sustainable.

I wouldn't worry about minutes too much. I would rather have Muzzin-Brodie instead of Giordano-Holl against their top guys, but ultimately I would just have Muzzin-Brodie as our top defense pairing, Giordano-Holl as our secondary defense pairing, and then have Rielly-Liljegren as our main offensive pairing and 3rd defensive pairing (aka as least as feasibly possible). It will probably naturally shake out with Holl and Liljegren having the fewest minutes played, but obviously a lot more than you would think.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Sure, Lyubushkin is better than most at hitting people, but it doesn't help when that is literally all he can do and it is certainly not in short enough supply where it justifies a complete liability in every other manner.

He can't PK. He can't move the puck. He can't stop the cycle. He can't handle any kind of forecheck. He is not stopping high danger chances. He brings no offense. He takes terrible penalties. Heck even in scuffles he is not exactly keeping anyone honest. Hitting is all he brings.

How many times has his hitting really made an impact on the game? If we want a guy who brings some hits, we will just put Clifford/Simmonds in. At least they will keep someone honest and pound a b****. Hitting is useless if it doesn't help you do something else, and it clearly is not for Lyubushkin.



This is the lineup that we should be using, but I think it can rotate a lot. I think the base pairings I would use would be:

Rielly - Liljegren
Muzzin - Brodie
Giordano - Holl

Rielly has sucked with Lyubushkin and hasn't played much with Liljegren in the playoffs but you can't deny these numbers:

56.52 CF%
61.5 GF%
63.83 xGF%
56 HDCF%
60 HDGF%

with 53 OZS% and 150 ES minutes during the regular season.

Give Rielly and Liljegren as many offensive minutes as you can and hope they can generate as much offense as possible, but I am more confident in Liljegren being able to defend right now more than I am Lyubushkin anyways. It honestly can't get much worse at either end and there is a ton of promise from the regular season.

Great post on the whole Lyubushkin debate. People need to forget the fact that he hits, because he doesn't really bring anything else to the table and it's costing the team. I would've gladly taken the defensive liability if he provided some offensive upside, or even vice versa.

He really shouldn't be in the lineup over Lily.

 

[rocketman588]

Sure, Lyubushkin is better than most at hitting people, but it doesn't help when that is literally all he can do and it is certainly not in short enough supply where it justifies a complete liability in every other manner.

He can't PK. He can't move the puck. He can't stop the cycle. He can't handle any kind of forecheck. He is not stopping high danger chances. He brings no offense. He takes terrible penalties. Heck even in scuffles he is not exactly keeping anyone honest. Hitting is all he brings.

How many times has his hitting really made an impact on the game? If we want a guy who brings some hits, we will just put Clifford/Simmonds in. At least they will keep someone honest and pound a b****. Hitting is useless if it doesn't help you do something else, and it clearly is not for Lyubushkin.



This is the lineup that we should be using, but I think it can rotate a lot. I think the base pairings I would use would be:

Rielly - Liljegren
Muzzin - Brodie
Giordano - Holl

Rielly has sucked with Lyubushkin and hasn't played much with Liljegren in the playoffs but you can't deny these numbers:

56.52 CF%
61.5 GF%
63.83 xGF%
56 HDCF%
60 HDGF%

with 53 OZS% and 150 ES minutes during the regular season.

Give Rielly and Liljegren as many offensive minutes as you can and hope they can generate as much offense as possible, but I am more confident in Liljegren being able to defend right now more than I am Lyubushkin anyways. It honestly can't get much worse at either end and there is a ton of promise from the regular season.

So you're going to play our least defensive D man with a inexperienced also offensive minded D man and shelter holl with our most responsible D man for 0 Gain?

You either go

Riley - gio
Brodie- muzz
Holl-lily

Riley- Brodie
Gio-muzz (as a pure shut down pair)
Holl-lily

Riley- holl
Lily- gio
Brodie - muzz

If Holl can't be out there without being sheltered what's the point

 

[lebdafor norris]

I've been defending this management, but if Keefe can't see that Holl is the WORST D-man on the Leafs, he needs to be fired. NOW.

Lybushkin has easily been worst, the guy is on ice for way more 5 vs 5 goals against compare to Holl while also being a lesser player both in the transition and the O zone.

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

Is Keefe that desperate to put Holl in over Timothy? Holls weaknesses definitely outway his strengths and is a massive liability on the ice.

 

[29Potvin]

Here is what i would like to see as these pairs have shown they can play well together in the past and it gives MO the partner that he has played his best hockey with. I get Muzz-Holl has been a dumpster fire at times but if they can get it together for 15-18 mins tonight thats all im asking. 1 game at a time!

Riley -Brodie
Muzz- Holl
Gio-lily

 

[TMLAM34]

Here is what i would like to see as these pairs have shown they can play well together in the past and it gives MO the partner that he has played his best hockey with. I get Muzz-Holl has been a dumpster fire at times but if they can get it together for 15-18 mins tonight thats all im asking. 1 game at a time!

Riley -Brodie
Muzz- Holl
Gio-lily

Agreed. Rielly hasn’t been nearly as effective as he was when paired with Brodie.

 

[lebdafor norris]

Holl certainly wasn't the only culprit last night, but Keefe would be out of his mind to put him back in considering his plus/minus in the 2 games he's played.

During 5 vs 5, Holl was ice for exactly 1 goal against for the whole 2 games his played, Boosh has been much worst in this regard despite being a black hole both in the transition and the offence.

 

[Macallan18]

I’ve said it a few times, Justin Holl is Jake Gardiner without the offense.

that doesn't leave much

During 5 vs 5, Holl was ice for exactly 1 goal against for the whole 2 games his played, Boosh has been much worst in this regard despite being a black hole both in the transition and the offence.

very true, but he also took a penalty necessitated by his stupid pinch
I think Holl is worth 1 goal against every f***ing game.
I am not a huge Bush fan either. At least he brings physicality.
Pairings should be
Rielly-Lily
Muzzin-Brodie
Giordano-Holl