Juraj Slafkovsky - Year Two

[417]

Funny - the only thing about the Slafkovsky story I DO understand is this board's sheer pandemonium.

In what sense?

I'm guessing in the sense that as Habs fans are scarred from past trauma?

I mean, ok...but who chooses to live like this? lol

 

[nhlfan9191]

Preach!

This is the part that I go back and forth on...

I'm not sure that you speed up your own pace, by playing at a slower pace. As I said before, when you struggle with that particular aspect of the game, playing at a slower pace can allow bad habits to creep in that just aren't effective when you are at a faster pace.

Like imagine right now, being told that you need to pick up your pace...then suddenly your thrust into the AHL where the pace is slower and that NHL adjustment isn't required anymore.

What happens when you're removed from that slower pace environment and put back in the faster pace?

I'm not arguing for or against any particular avenue here, just really trying to foster the discussion around it. I'm always willing to hear and take in different points of view on things.

I just have a feeling that if Slafkovsky played the EXACT SAME WAY, he currently is playing, but in the AHL and was putting up points, everyone would be thrilled with his development.

And for me, that's problematic.

For me, it's difficult to pinpoint where development went wrong with a particular player. People love to make correlations, but i'm not always 100% sure that the causation portion of that equation is always correct.

I.e. The Habs rushed Alex Galchenyuk...I don't think that was the problem there.

A lot of your points are the reason I’ve become semi attached to Slafkovsky. It’s actually intriguing to say the least how he will develop if he isn’t sent down. I can’t remember a prospect this green playing in the NHL amounting to anything with this specific development plan. It looks horrible to old school people but MAYBE there’s a method to the madness that we just haven’t seen a lot of yet. End of the day, Slafkovsky still has to back it up which he hasn’t YET.

 

[Whitesnake]

In what sense?

I'm guessing in the sense that as Habs fans are scarred from past trauma?

I mean, ok...but who chooses to live like this? lol

It's not about that. It,s about thinking you use the same method and think it would achieve different results. Of course we will live like that when it's regard to an 18 year old. it doesn't mean that we will look at the same thing when a guy comes in at 21 though.

Isn't the Habs fans being patient when almost 99% of the players that are chosen No1 happen not only to play in the NHL but to ALREADY be succesful, we asked for him to start in the AHL? Isn't it what being patient is?

 

[417]

A lot of your points are the reason I’ve become semi attached to Slafkovsky. It’s actually intriguing to say the least how he will develop if he isn’t sent down. I can’t remember a prospect this green playing in the NHL amounting to anything with this specific development plan. It looks horrible to old school people but MAYBE there’s a method to the madness that we just haven’t seen a lot of yet. End of the day, Slafkovsky still has to back it up which he hasn’t YET.

I do, although he was eventually sent to the AHL where he didn't do much and was eventually changed position from forward to Dman (I'm kind of fuzzy on when that positional switch happened though)

Brent Burns

 

[Whitesnake]

The problem is his slow decision making has always been a problem. It's not like he suddenly started struggling in this capacity because he isn't used to NHL speed. These were weaknesses that were called out before he was drafted.

Frankly, in all honestey, I haven't seen him a lot play in his regular team. Seen him maybe twice or 3 times. Saw all the tournaments he played though. And I don't remember seeing his IQ being that problematic. He was assertive. He was taking charge. Almost being the catalyst on his lines in most shifts. So I guess people saw something I didn't...'cause yes at the NHL level....the IQ comes into question. But for me, right now, I put that on the pace of the game being too fast. That has OBVIOUSLY nothing to do with how fast he skates....something people like to mention when we talk about pace of game...lol

 

[Jeune Poulet]

I have a serious question for Habs fans...

Let's say it takes 200 NHL games, so about another 2 NHL seasons roughly, before Slafkovsky starts to look and produce like the player the Habs drafted 1st overall.

Will it have mattered that he didn't go to the AHL for those 200 games and instead spent them plying his trade and improving himself physically and mentally for the player he eventually became, IN the NHL?

And i'm not even talking generational 1st overall...just say top line PF, who is impossible to get off the puck, can score 25-30+ goals and opens up a ton of space for his linemates, essentially the perfect foil to Suzuki/Caufield.

Just curious with this "pie in the sky" hypothetical, would people be happy with that?

Or will the idea be that if he was sent to the AHL, he'd be so much better than just that?

I am of the opinion that sending him to the AHL will help him unlock more of the top end skills. So yeah, I'd still think it was the wrong call.

But you can never know for sure what would have happened. So there is always speculation involved.

From a roster/anagement/financial standpoint, we already know that rushing him at 18 years old was a stupid decision, though. We're wasting his ELC holding him by the hand, when we could have have let him grow in the AHL, keep the hunger, and we could have made the contract years slide forward to maximize his value and pay him at his best.

Terrible management, really.

 

[SlafySZN]

It's not about that. It,s about thinking you use the same method and think it would achieve different results. Of course we will live like that when it's regard to an 18 year old. it doesn't mean that we will look at the same thing when a guy comes in at 21 though.
Isn't the Habs fans being patient when almost 99% of the players that are chosen No1 happen not only to play in the NHL but to ALREADY be succesful, we asked for him to start in the AHL? Isn't it what being patient is?

Thing is, it’s not the same method. How Slaf is handled is completely different than someone like KK. I understand the one who wants him in the AHL i do but the team isn’t in the same position as they were when KK arrived, the coach is different and is part of the plan in developing Slaf.

 

[nhlfan9191]

I do, although he was eventually sent to the AHL where he didn't do much and was eventually changed position from forward to Dman (I'm kind of fuzzy on when that positional switch happened though)

Brent Burns

Slaf would have to stay in the NHL for him to be considered a Guinea Pig for me. You can find a lot of examples of green prospects flip flopping leagues, not many that spend their entire time up and succeed. People bring up KK, but even he was more decorated in amateur before his draft year and he still put up 31 points as a rookie in a draft class that made him the youngest player in the league.

 

[417]

It's not about that. It,s about thinking you use the same method and think it would achieve different results. Of course we will live like that when it's regard to an 18 year old. it doesn't mean that we will look at the same thing when a guy comes in at 21 though.

But why though? Why does it matter when a player begins his journey given that not all players mature physically and mentally, at the same pace?

Why does it matter that Slafkovsky started at 18yrs old and didn't play in the AHL

But Kaiden Guhle started in the NHL at 20 and also didn't play in the AHL?

Why does it matter if at 16 Slafkovsky was fending for himself like a grown ass man in Europe and playing against men…while Guhle was living with billots and having his laundry done for him.

What makes one way more prepared than the other simply because he played a handful of games against other junior aged players?

Isn't the Habs fans being patient when almost 99% of the players that are chosen No1 happen not only to play in the NHL but to ALREADY be succesful, we asked for him to start in the AHL? Isn't it what being patient is?

I think being patient is being patient regardless of where he's developing…

Let's keep it a buck…the main reason people want him sent down is purely related to production that they think will be easier in the AHL. If his head was still down and he was still getting rocked, still fanning on shots, still passing instead of shooting, but somehow had more points...we'd all be praising how he's being developed.

 

[Andy]

The problem is everyone wants to be right about Slafkovsky right now. Everyone needs to take it down a notch.

He's always been touted as a project and it's clear they want him next to MSL and not in the AHL. He's been progressing just fine, which is exactly what you want to see with young players. He's far, far superior to the player he was last year and any one pretending he's not is being completely dishonest.

He has a ways to go, but he's getting better every game, and the skill set is there. He's shown that he has a capacity to learn and that his tools have not yet plateaued.

It's very unlikely that we get a clear sense where Slaf is going by the end of the season, but that's okay. I get it, 1OA blah blah, but it was made very clear since the beginning that it's a long-term project.

Just f***ing chill, everyone.

 

[waffledave]

Frankly, in all honestey, I haven't seen him a lot play in his regular team. Seen him maybe twice or 3 times. Saw all the tournaments he played though. And I don't remember seeing his IQ being that problematic. He was assertive. He was taking charge. Almost being the catalyst on his lines in most shifts. So I guess people saw something I didn't...'cause yes at the NHL level....the IQ comes into question. But for me, right now, I put that on the pace of the game being too fast. That has OBVIOUSLY nothing to do with how fast he skates....something people like to mention when we talk about pace of game...lol

It shouldn't be a surprise, it was something called out in all his scouting reports. He looked good in international tournaments, sure, but this was a small sample size and playing against questionable opponents. It was silly to expect he would have the time and space he was used to once he made the NHL - I mean most of the time the guy was dangling the puck on the boards with one hand on his stick for 15+ seconds playing keepaway with the other arm. Hardly anyone can get away with that in the NHL.

 

[417]

I am of the opinion that sending him to the AHL will help him unlock more of the top end skills. So yeah, I'd still think it was the wrong call.

But you can never know for sure what would have happened. So there is always speculation involved.

You guys definitely have a different view of the AHL than I do.

If the AHL unlocked this kind of ability in players, teams would be sending guys down to the AHL, regardless of contractual status all the damn time. I mean, "unlock top end skills"....what do you think they're feeding players down there?

I mean, Armia still looks like the same ol' Armia lol (not fully serious here, but kinda)., can we send down Josh Anderson to Laval to rediscover his scoring form? Guaranteed he's gonna pass waivers!

From a roster/anagement/financial standpoint, we already know that rushing him at 18 years old was a stupid decision, though. We're wasting his ELC holding him by the hand, when we could have have let him grow in the AHL, keep the hunger, and we could have made the contract years slide forward to maximize his value and pay him at his best.

Terrible management, really.

No we don't know that...you assume and many others assume and have together decided that it's factual.

But it still anyone's guess at this point. You don't know.

The contractual question is a separate one and that's for management to juggle...it really has nothing to do with development.

 

[417]

Slaf would have to stay in the NHL for him to be considered a Guinea Pig for me. You can find a lot of examples of green prospects flip flopping leagues, not many that spend their entire time up and succeed. People bring up KK, but even he was more decorated in amateur before his draft year and he still put up 31 points as a rookie in a draft class that made him the youngest player in the league.

Yet people here, a lot of the same people I was arguing to be patient then, were writing him off after his rookie season too.

But that's never part of the "PTSD"...we only remember the guys who didn't pan out because it's easy to say "oh he was rushed".

Jesperi Kotkaniemi is 23 years old and "finally" breaking out...that's NORMAL.

 

[Final Baton]

It's a tough call between sending him to AHL or keep him in NHL :

One could reasonnably say : "If you want him to ajust to NHL speed; keep him in NHL".

And one could also reasonnably say : "he needs to gain confidence and work on his fundamentals; send him to AHL".

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The problem is his slow decision making has always been a problem. It's not like he suddenly started struggling in this capacity because he isn't used to NHL speed. These were weaknesses that were called out before he was drafted.

Funny, I see the opposite. As I pointed out in earlier posts, he had time to make a play out to CC and rushed it. If anything, I think he should slow his game down a bit. Take a look around before making a quick pass. He'll get better on this as he matures.

It's a tough call between sending him to AHL or keep him in NHL :

One could reasonnably say : "If you want him to ajust to NHL speed; keep him in NHL".

And one could also reasonnably say : "he needs to gain confidence and work on his fundamentals; send him to AHL".

I was fully on the AHL train to start and up until a few games ago. But he's been moved up in the lineup and is markedly improved over the past few games. I think we owe it to him to show what he can do. If he continues to improve, I'm okay with him staying here. Ten games isn't a long time but it's long enough to show what he can do. I hope they give him that and I hope they don't put him back with Anderson/Newhook because that didn't work at all.

 

[ReHabs]

It's a tough call between sending him to AHL or keep him in NHL :

One could reasonnably say : "If you want him to ajust to NHL speed; keep him in NHL".

And one could also reasonnably say : "he needs to gain confidence and work on his fundamentals; send him to AHL".

I genuinely and unreservedly think he needs to work on his fundamentals. Even if he does catch up to NHL speeds his playmaking and decision making is whack. He's a lumbering oaf out there and treats the puck like a hot potato. He needs to make plays, be creative, and think like a playmaker not a crash test dummy. I have no problem if he's not producing but he's not playing like a producer and that's a big problem.

AHL, Juniors, Europe -- anywhere but here.

But that's not going to happen so we have to grind our teeth and watch this trainwreck take place. If this season ends without much change, he'll be on pace to be the worst 1st overall in modern history. The single worst. That's how unprecedented his underproduction really is.

 

[Whitesnake]

But why though? Why does it matter when a player begins his journey given that not all players mature physically and mentally, at the same pace?

Why does it matter that Slafkovsky started at 18yrs old and didn't play in the AHL

But Kaiden Guhle started in the NHL at 20 and also didn't play in the AHL?

Why does it matter if at 16 Slafkovsky was fending for himself like a grown ass man in Europe and playing against men…while Guhle was living with billots and having his laundry done for him.

What makes one way more prepared than the other simply because he played a handful of games against other junior aged players?

- It matters 'cause he was never playing on a small ice surface.
- It matters 'cause even in his Liiga D-1, Kemell surpassed him offensively. So there is still ways to go to perfect a kid offensively especially since he was picked No1. Nobody will convince me that the goal was to draft a superior 3rd liner.
- It matters 'cause big guys usually take longer time to develop.
- It matters because he's playing in a team who has been waiting for kingdom to come in 30 years and have been waiting for their next forward star since....freakin Stéphane Richer...with the pressure that comes with it.

To each their own? Absolutely. I thought HIS own was to start at a lower level to get acclimated to the North American type of hockey.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Yet people here, a lot of the same people I was arguing to be patient then, were writing him off after his rookie season too.

But that's never part of the "PTSD"...we only remember the guys who didn't pan out because it's easy to say "oh he was rushed".

Jesperi Kotkaniemi is 23 years old and "finally" breaking out...that's NORMAL.

We pick our own battles. I never debated KK because I didn’t see his development as ever being hindered. He performed when he was up, got sent down, then struggled and another team poached him before any of it mattered.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We pick our own battles. I never debated KK because I didn’t see his development as ever being hindered. He performed when he was up, got sent down, then struggled and another team poached him before any of it mattered.

I HATED the way we handled KK.

 

[Jaynki]

From a roster/anagement/financial standpoint, we already know that rushing him at 18 years old was a stupid decision, though. We're wasting his ELC holding him by the hand, when we could have have let him grow in the AHL, keep the hunger, and we could have made the contract years slide forward to maximize his value and pay him at his best.

Terrible management, really.

You talk with such autority.

Maybe they are onto something with having him in the NHL too.

 

[Whitesnake]

Thing is, it’s not the same method. How Slaf is handled is completely different than someone like KK. I understand the one who wants him in the AHL i do but the team isn’t in the same position as they were when KK arrived, the coach is different and is part of the plan in developing Slaf.

To me, a 18 year old that starts in the NHL is an already pro player with a nice basis. With not a lot of expectations. See Patrice Bergeron. KK arrived while not having played centerman a lot in his D-1 on his team. An Euro that is not used to small ice surface and North American hockey, I wouldn't have them at 18 unless you are talking exceptional talent.

To me...while different type of players...they are the same in development.

 

[Gravity]

Y'all are arguing about nothing.

Did he have a good game yesterday? Yes. That's why he was on the ice in the last minute with the goalie pulled. Coaches clearly thought he was playing well.

Does he need to produce? Yes. But he's been away from plug Anderson for 3 games. If he looks decent for 20 games and can't produce then it's a different story.

Expecting 30-35 points max from him this year if he stays in the NHL all season.

 

[Kennerback]

We pick our own battles. I never debated KK because I didn’t see his development as ever being hindered. He performed when he was up, got sent down, then struggled and another team poached him before any of it mattered.

From the start, what KK did he did well. You could see potential, not as much unicorn monster potential like Slaf, but it was definitely there. He had slow but steady progress.
He never had any glaring controversial problems that made people lose their shit like with Slafkovsky.

After a while in the NHL, KK’s apparent issues were skating which wasn’t that bad and he could get where he wanted to. His vision to spot players was a subtle problem that you needed to look for. But it was there.

 

[417]

- It matters 'cause he was never playing on a small ice surface.

Ice is the same size in the AHL and NHL.

- It matters 'cause even in his Liiga D-1, Kemell surpassed him offensively. So there is still ways to go to perfect a kid offensively especially since he was picked No1. Nobody will convince me that the goal was to draft a superior 3rd liner.

Yet Kemell is still in the AHL and producing at a lower pace than he was last year where he split his time playing in the AHL and in Europe.

Kemell followed the traditional development path everyone here loves.

He's not any closer to the NHL.

- It matters 'cause big guys usually take longer time to develop.

Correct.

Is time calculated at a different speed at a lower levels or something? If it takes longer, why does that mean that time must be spent at lower level?

Time is time.

- It matters because he's playing in a team who has been waiting for kingdom to come in 30 years and have been waiting for their next forward star since....freakin Stéphane Richer...with the pressure that comes with it.

What does this have to do with development?

To each their own? Absolutely. I thought HIS own was to start at a lower level to get acclimated to the North American type of hockey.

He IS getting acclimated to NA hockey. Just not at the pace you wish he was.

But that's a “you” problem, he just needs to do it at HIS pace, if that takes 200 more NHL games, so be it.

 

[417]

We pick our own battles. I never debated KK because I didn’t see his development as ever being hindered. He performed when he was up, got sent down, then struggled and another team poached him before any of it mattered.

Fair enough...but the same discussions are happening and the same focus on the NOW is grabbing a hold of people's opinions the same way.

People didn't have the ability to project then, and they don't have it now...it was all "Bambi" and "slow release", etc.

No one ever considered that this was all stuff that he worked on and gained experience dealing with.

I see people trying to re-write history and say that KK looked better than Slaf did early, but man people forget quickly!

I get it's a message board and we're Habs fans and we're passionate...but some sprinters don't reach full speed until the 60M mark of a 100M race, focusing on whose winning at the 25M mark is a total waste of time.