Juraj Slafkovsky - Year Two

[Andrei79]

Correct...which was a side debate to the Slafkovsky question specifically.

First off, I didn't say that the AHL is not a valuable developmental tool...there is value there for players who just don't have a seat to sit in, IN the NHL.

However, it IS for all purposes, mostly a replacement-level league.

The MAJORITY of AHL players are replacement-level players. I'm not sure this is even arguable.

This is bad how ? You're saying AHL players are just on the cusp of the NHL. That sounds like a perfect place for Slafkovsky seeing how he's playing. Not too weak like the CHL. Not to different system wise like Liiga. A perfect stepping stone and a place to learn the right habits at the right pace.

 

[417]

I'm not going to lie, I don't even understand what this is supposed to mean. It sounds incoherent to me.

Not surprising.

People love to say "look at player A, he skipped the AHL and became a bust" therefore all players must go to the AHL to succeed.

But completely ignore all of the players who spent tons of time in the AHL and never amounted to anything. That's never part of the equation.

For example...Logan Cooley has skipped the AHL all together and everyone is drooling over him.

Is the talking point now going to be that NCAA players can skip the AHL all together so long as they play 1 year in the NCAA post draft?

Of course not lol.

If you look at the cup winning Avalanche, their 2nd highest scoring and both 5th highest scoring (tied) players in the playoffs spent significant AHL time. One of those has scored 100 points in a season, another 87 and the other is a top20D in the league. Out of all of their players that year, only 3 spent their D+1 in the NHL, one of which had to go back to an lesser league for a significant time. The norm is spending your teenage years outside of the NHL. The AHL is has a proven record and is likely the best pro league as far as preparing players for the NHL. It's even in their mission statement.

I don't know...some European leagues and the NCAA might say otherwise.

Hell the NHL might argue that too lol.

And again, stop with the mission statement lol.

I'm asking you because it seems you have a different interpretation of what's being said. You seem to be going off an altogether different premise.

Meh...your opinion, i'm following just fine.

 

[morhilane]

I wonder what the list of players who suffered from going to the AHL looks like.

Surely that year Rantanen spent in the AHL prevented him from reaching even higher heights.

~20 years old (D+2/+3) is usually when players start to really get their feet wet in the NHL. The top CHLers skip the AHL or barely play in it because of the 20 years old rule. Top Euros are more disparate and can be in the NHL, AHL or back in EU depending on the coaching staff/management and how physically ready they are for the NHL.

Habs have no issue developing Slaf at the NHL level. If MSL didn't like his play, he wouldn't still be on the top 6 and playing him with Caufield. Players on their way to the AHL are usually on the 4th line getting sub 10 minutes a night.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Of course it does, it clearly proves that the AHL isn't some must-have developmental stop for most players.

Nice try. This is a straw man argument. Nobody called it a “must-have”. Try again.

 

[417]

This is bad how ?

Who said it's bad? lol it was stated as a fact, which is true.

You're the one who decided to challenge this.

You're saying AHL players are just on the cusp of the NHL. That sounds like a perfect place for Slafkovsky seeing how he's playing. Not too weak like the CHL. Not to different system wise like Liiga. A perfect stepping stone and a place to learn the right habits at the right pace.

Again, the debate about whether or not Slafkovsky should be in the AHL is secondary to the overall question we are presently debating.

I don't have an issue with saying Slafkovsky should be in the AHL, I mostly agree with it, I just don't think it's as big of an issue as most are making it.

So send him or keep him, for me, he's still developing regardless. Just because it would seemingly be "easier" for him in the AHL, doesn't necessarily mean it is better for him than in the NHL where it's more challenging.

Nice try. This is a straw man argument. Nobody called it a “must-have”. Try again.

Huh? That's basically all I've been reading here for years lol.

"Habs keep skipping developmental steps".

"Habs rush their prospects"

"You have to dominate every level before you get to the NHL"

Strawman? pfffttt lol

 

[Skip Bayless]

All I know is my man's going absolutely crazy right now !

Four straight games with at least one shot. f***ing mental.

I really believe if he had better linemates he could have like 3 more goals and 14 more assists.

Crazy.

 

[417]

All I know is my man's going absolutely crazy right now !

Four straight games with at least one shot. f***ing mental.

I really believe if he had better linemates he could have like 3 more goals and 14 more assists.

Crazy.

Worst fans…we don't deserve shit!

 

[Goldenhands]

Please don’t compare Slafkovsky to Tage Thompson…

Why?

How many big guys in the history of the league turned out like Tage?

Todd Bertuzzi, Ryan Getzlaf, Rantanen coming to my mind right there, Im sure I can dress a much longer list after 5-10 minutes research...

 

[DAChampion]

Todd Bertuzzi, Ryan Getzlaf, Rantanen coming to my mind right there, Im sure I can dress a much longer list after 5-10 minutes research...

How do you evaluate Slafkovsky's ceiling ?

 

[Goldenhands]

How do you evaluate Slafkovsky's ceiling ?

PPG PF In his prime, a 200 ft. beast.

 

[Canad13ns]

That's simply not true...

Again, you're conflating a specific argument about Slafkovsky and applying it generally....I did no such thing.

You: “I think the opposite that the slower pace of the AHL will actually reinforce the bad habits he has because he can get away with them there.”


Me: “You have argued essentially that lower-level competition makes you worse, that the habit of being not good enough is reinforced in the AHL”

You: That's simply not true... Again, you're conflating a specific argument about Slafkovsky and applying it generally.”


Ok, I thought your first statement was an argument you were making about sending NHL players down to the AHL to develop, i.e. that this was something that you meant could be true for other players as well.

But now you clarify that you meant that the AHL would reinforce ONLY Slaf’s bad habits, in a process that is unique to him and does not apply to any other players. Thus it can’t be rebutted by any actual evidence of how things have gone with other players, it’s just an article of faith that you hold or you don’t. OK then.

Earlier you had asked that people focus on “fruitful” debates. How can a fruitful debate be had about a claim you make that only applies to Slaf specifically, so no evidence against your claim is relevant?

 

[DAChampion]

PPG PF In his prime, a 200 ft. beast.

Hope you're right, but right now he's lacking effectiveness on the ice IMO.

Do you think he's still on track?

 

[Mrb1p]

All I know is my man's going absolutely crazy right now !

Four straight games with at least one shot. f***ing mental.

I really believe if he had better linemates he could have like 3 more goals and 14 more assists.

Crazy.

Amen

 

[DAChampion]

Agree.

As top 6 players/top 3d or as depth player?

I think that Roy has middle six potential, Mailloux has 2nd pairing potential and Dobes has starter potential.

Farrell and Struble can be useful depth players.

 

[Goldenhands]

Hope you're right, but right now he's lacking effectiveness on the ice IMO.

Do you think he's still on track?

In term of power game and 200 ft. work he is getting better and better, what he lacks right now is confidence around the net, he is still too tentative and hesitant. At some point, the results will have to come, if it doesnt, WJC and a couple of games in the AHL might be a good idea. Overall Im not worried at all about him, Ive no doubt about his potential and that the pts will come at some point.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Hope you're right, but right now he's lacking effectiveness on the ice IMO.

Do you think he's still on track?

I think it's safe to say that Slaf's play so far is exactly how everyone had it drawn up. Get hyped, champ.

 

[NORiculous]

Todd Bertuzzi, Ryan Getzlaf, Rantanen coming to my mind right there, Im sure I can dress a much longer list after 5-10 minutes research...

Rantanen? He exploded in his first year putting up over a pts per game in the AHL as an 18y old. That’s not a comparable.

Getzlaf? Paced for over 50 pts in his first NHL season. That’s not a comparable.

Bertuzzi is an interesting comparable. Although he had a much better overall season than what Slafkovsky has shown. And, on the production side, he had almost 40 pts, compared to 12 for Slafkovsky. Bertuzzi was faster at using his big body compared to what we have seen from Slafkovsky.

But ok… that’s one who is, age per age, arguably a better version of Slafkovsky, based on what we have seen so far anyway.

I am sure that if you try to make a list on the other side ( big guys that have never reached the potential) your list will be much bigger real fast.

That was the point of my original post. The odds of Slafkovsky reaching Thompson heights are low, even if they are still not impossible at this point. So I can compare myself to Mario Lemieux… but is there really a point in doing that?

That was my point.

 

[leVENTduNORD]

Do you also discredit Caufields season like that? Because hes also on pace for 20 ES points.

Lets call a spade a spade, Cooley shouldve been the pick.

Caufield : weak defensively, weak physically, average passer, cheat a lot at ES. 3 years older and has a lot more NHL experience than Cooley, Slaf or any other 2022 draftees . If he can't reach 40 ES points per season on average, he will definitely be overpaid at 8M.


Back to Slaf :
The whole season before the draft every friggin expert agreed thewe woulld be no superstar in this draft, they also pretty much agreed no PPG player and mostly long term project, and that included Slaf. At the draft pretty much everyone in the hockey world agreed this specific draft was weak, shown no potentials superstars and was filled mostly with long term project. After the draft even Hugues talked about Slaf being a long term project, and prety much every hockey expert, hockey fans, Habs fans agreed with it. a few months later during training cap everyone in the Habs was still talking about Slaf being a long term project and every single Habs fan agreed with them, the following summer and during his 2nd training camp Hugues and MSL were still talking about Slaf being a long term project, every single Habs fan agreed with them.

After barely 50 games for our long term project, you're all whining because he doesnt show enough skills, productions, etc.

Now if you do not understand the concept of long term project when it comes to NHL players you're one of the spades I talked about in my initial post.

 

[nhlfan9191]

reality: Cooley has one goal this year, so does Slaf. Cooley is on pace for 19 ES points this season, wich is good for 3rd line production. So far the only way Cooley remains a 50 points C is if stays one of the very good PP producers in the league So YES he would be a disappointment for a 1st overall. The idiots who can't even admit Slaf's been all right when he had a good game and keep repeating no progression over and over would do the same with Cooley. Guaranteed.

I've seen enough of this thread in the few months I've been lurking to know that for sure. We know the drill: He had a good game BUT, it was a fluke play, player X did all the work on the play, this and that are expected for a NHL player, etc. Every frigging excuse has been used already. For the idiots, it will never be good enough. PPG or bust. Would be no different with Cooley

Talk about dramatic. There’s a difference between expecting a PPG and expecting more then 15 points in a season. You can downplay PP production, but it’s still just that, production. We’ll take anything right now with Slafkovsky.

 

[Goldenhands]

Rantanen? He exploded in his first year putting up over a pts per game in the AHL as an 18y old. That’s not a comparable.

Getzlaf? Paced for over 50 pts in his first NHL season. That’s not a comparable.

Bertuzzi is an interesting comparable. Although he had a much better overall season than what Slafkovsky has shown. And, on the production side, he had almost 40 pts, compared to 12 for Slafkovsky. Bertuzzi was faster at using his big body compared to what we have seen from Slafkovsky.

But ok… that’s one who is, age per age, arguably a better version of Slafkovsky, based on what we have seen so far anyway.

I am sure that if you try to make a list on the other side ( big guys that have never reached the potential) your list will be much bigger real fast.

That was the point of my original post. The odds of Slafkovsky reaching Thompson heights are low, even if they are still not impossible at this point. So I can compare myself to Mario Lemieux… but is there really a point in doing that?

That was my point.

Getzlaf was just over the PPG in junior in his D+2. Rantanen put 38 pts playing with Mackinnon,


Slaf played 1 game with Dach and got a wonderful assist. Not looking for excuses but I called it right after Dach's injury that Slaf would be the most impacted by that injury.

 

[morhilane]

In term of power game and 200 ft. work he is getting better and better, what he lacks right now is confidence around the net, he is still too tentative and hesitant. At some point, the results will have to come, if it doesnt, WJC and a couple of games in the AHL might be a good idea. Overall Im not worried at all about him, Ive no doubt about his potential and the pts will come at some point.

I've said it before, he's not improving as fast as people want, but he's actually improving faster than people believe he is.

He seems to be in a "trying out the physical side" the last few games. People shouldn't expect him to be constant with it while he tentatively looking at what works and what doesn't for him right now. He seems to be a bit of a "I need to feel this" person too, but he appears quite coachable. Coach Ramsay wasn't lying about it.

 

[NORiculous]

I think it's safe to say that Slaf's play so far is exactly how everyone had it drawn up. Get hyped, champ.

I envisioned him making progress. That’s what you normally look for in prospects.

I can’t say I am satisfied with his progress though. I bet Slafkovsky himself isn’t satisfied, so I doupt I am alone.

I also wonder why Hughes has no confidence in his AHL coaching team (If MSL had a twin in the AHL, Habs probably wouldn’t mind so much if Slafkovsky spent time under him) and why Hughes doesn’t make a change.

I think that is a fair question that should be answered.

Rantanen put 38 pts playing with Mackinnon,

If you had watched the games, you would know that MacKinnon, that year, missed more opportunities setup by Rantanen then the other way around.

 

[Sorinth]

Rantanen? He exploded in his first year putting up over a pts per game in the AHL as an 18y old. That’s not a comparable.

Getzlaf? Paced for over 50 pts in his first NHL season. That’s not a comparable.

Bertuzzi is an interesting comparable. Although he had a much better overall season than what Slafkovsky has shown. And, on the production side, he had almost 40 pts, compared to 12 for Slafkovsky. Bertuzzi was faster at using his big body compared to what we have seen from Slafkovsky.

But ok… that’s one who is, age per age, arguably a better version of Slafkovsky, based on what we have seen so far anyway.

I am sure that if you try to make a list on the other side ( big guys that have never reached the potential) your list will be much bigger real fast.

That was the point of my original post. The odds of Slafkovsky reaching Thompson heights are low, even if they are still not impossible at this point. So I can compare myself to Mario Lemieux… but is there really a point in doing that?

That was my point.

Rantanen had 0 points in 9 NHL games in the year you say he "exploded", Draisaitl had 9 points in 37 games after being drafted. A lack of production in the NHL at a young age doesn't mean a player's skill set is limited.

Small improvements can lead to big increases in production because production isn't tied to talent in a linear fashion. Draisaitl going from a ppg of 0.24 as a rookie to 0.7 as a sophmore wasn't because he was x3 times the hockey player. Often times it's just a question of getting over that hump. If Slaf gets a fraction of a second faster he goes from slightly behind to slightly ahead of the play and the points will pile up. The only questions are can he get faster and what environment gives him the best chance at doing it.

 

[NORiculous]

Rantanen had 0 points in 9 NHL games in the year you say he "exploded", Draisaitl had 9 points in 37 games after being drafted. A lack of production in the NHL at a young age doesn't mean a player's skill set is limited.

Small improvements can lead to big increases in production because production isn't tied to talent in a linear fashion. Draisaitl going from a ppg of 0.24 as a rookie to 0.7 as a sophmore wasn't because he was x3 times the hockey player. Often times it's just a question of getting over that hump. If Slaf gets a fraction of a second faster he goes from slightly behind to slightly ahead of the play and the points will pile up. The only questions are can he get faster and what environment gives him the best chance at doing it.

I am not saying Slafkovsky can’t. But both of the examples you gave went to find that extra second in the AHL.

 

[Goldenhands]

I've said it before, he's not improving as fast as people want, but he's actually improving faster than people believe he is.

He seems to be in a "trying out the physical side" the last few games. People shouldn't expect him to be constant with it while he tentatively looking at what works and what doesn't for him right now. He seems to be a bit of a "I need to feel this" person too, but he appears quite coachable. Coach Ramsay wasn't lying about it.

I totally agree with this, Slaf is that type of player that needs to experiment alot, improvements cant be seen on the scoresheet for now, but that doesnt matter much for management, as long as the kid works on the things they want him to improve, its all about the process and long term results.