Player Discussion JT Miller Thread

[Shareefruck]

Why has this board started to quote people from twitter who are irrelevant?

I am sorry, but don't use the stupid quote, pass it on as your own thought. Sure start a conversation, but quoting some no one just makes it seem like you are trying to pass this as some substantial thing.

This is kind of an interesting tangent that I hadn't really considered, excuse the rambling.

Personally, I don't see the issue of quoting someone else to make your point for you. If the opinion-holder being a "nobody" was relevant in any way, then we shouldn't really be talking to each other to begin with, as we could easily say the same thing about each other.

I do prefer when people make their points in their own words, but it does seem weirdly possessive to tell people not to do it, as if there's something wrong with it. Taking someone using a quote to make a point as "trying to pass it off as a substantive thing" sounds like more of a you-taking-things-the-wrong-way-and-needing-to-be-less-presumptuous problem than an actual fair reading (I'm not aware of that poster's history or any potential trend of disingenuousness, though). As far as I can see, there's nothing in his post that actually indicates that. I guess he COULD have added a line saying "I agree with this take:", but at best it comes across as ambiguous and confusing otherwise rather than misleading.

People quote other "nobody" posters for truth all the time-- why does that change if that other poster is from another platform? There's something to be said for giving a person credit for having a thought that you agree with and find more eloquent than you could make. I mean, how obnoxious would it be to respond to someone quoting an MS opinion that they agree with with "Who cares what this nobody thinks!?"

The guy being quoted may be making a stupid point, but that can be individually criticized (along with the choice to pass it along) without anything being wrong with the act of quoting a "nobody"'s opinion, IMO.

It's almost like some of us have become wired to treat Twitter itself as some sort of inherent illusion of authority and respectability, and that may be the actual problem here..... but if so, we really should just stop doing that, rather than start telling people not to use it in any other way, IMO.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

It seems super clear who Miller is at this point. A very good player who is super ideal to have on your team if you are going for it all, as he is a passionate borderline-manic competitor who will drag players along with him. At the same time, he is one of the most embarrassing "leaders" in the league when his team is not good enough. He displays poor body language, a lack of effort, and will be a prickly asshole when things are not going his way, which are basically 3/3 on things that you do NOT want out of someone in a position of leadership on a team.

Giving this kind of boom or bust player a long-term, big money contract means that you have to be absolutely sure that you are either going to be competing for a majority of the deal and/or you have a rock solid leadership structure in place so these antics will be snuffed out asap. The Canucks are arrogant morons so I assume this discussion hasn't happened, but I would guess that they are confident of being competitive for some reason, so hopefully that's the case here.

The recent report that they had an opportunity to move him for 2 FIRSTS + PLAYERS and didn't execute the deal because they got caught up on acquiring another centre to replace Miller, if true (and we have every reason to believe it is true because Seravalli is probably the lead insider these days), is such an unbelievable f***up that its worthy of dismissal for the management team. In order to have any possibility of contending/competing in the Miller window, the Canucks need to have a ton of volatility flip all in their favour and have nothing go wrong, because we have seen that they have neither the depth or character to withstand a storm. Keeping Miller means tying yourself to volatility in which we are already at the best possible outcome for Miller based on normal aging curves, and the most likely outcome is downward volatility that will absolutely murder your team. Not stoked!

If half this team had Miller's competitiveness we would be battling Vegas for the division. I dont know why the minute he does something Miller gets an army of hyper sensitive snowflakes taking aim at him but whatever it's your prerogative.

Is it not just totally embarrassing to purposefully use the terminology that has been made popular by the stupidest people on planet earth?

 

[VintageBure]

It seems super clear who Miller is at this point. A very good player who is super ideal to have on your team if you are going for it all, as he is a passionate borderline-manic competitor who will drag players along with him. At the same time, he is one of the most embarrassing "leaders" in the league when his team is not good enough. He displays poor body language, a lack of effort, and will be a prickly asshole when things are not going his way, which are basically 3/3 on things that you do NOT want out of someone in a position of leadership on a team.

Giving this kind of boom or bust player a long-term, big money contract means that you have to be absolutely sure that you are either going to be competing for a majority of the deal and/or you have a rock solid leadership structure in place so these antics will be snuffed out asap. The Canucks are arrogant morons so I assume this discussion hasn't happened, but I would guess that they are confident of being competitive for some reason, so hopefully that's the case here.

The recent report that they had an opportunity to move him for 2 FIRSTS + PLAYERS and didn't execute the deal because they got caught up on acquiring another centre to replace Miller, if true (and we have every reason to believe it is true because Seravalli is probably the lead insider these days), is such an unbelievable f***up that its worthy of dismissal for the management team. In order to have any possibility of contending/competing in the Miller window, the Canucks need to have a ton of volatility flip all in their favour and have nothing go wrong, because we have seen that they have neither the depth or character to withstand a storm. Keeping Miller means tying yourself to volatility in which we are already at the best possible outcome for Miller based on normal aging curves, and the most likely outcome is downward volatility that will absolutely murder your team. Not stoked!


Is it not just totally embarrassing to purposefully use the terminology that has been made popular by the stupidest people on planet earth?

If they weren't willing to take two firsts for him then I agree with you. However, I highly doubt that's true given his contract. They were probably offered two 3rds.

 

[Diogenes92]

Probably 3 or 4 years too old to be a part of this core when they actually start competing for cups (not likely for at least another 3 or 4 years imo).

I hope they somehow find a way to move him this summer before that contract kicks in.

 

[credulous]

said Pettersson. “I mean, we’ve had our differences, maybe in some games, but he’s a teammate that I respect. He’s someone I like to play hockey with.
“He wants to win so bad and sometimes he maybe gets too hotheaded, if that’s the right word. He cares a lot and just wants to win.”

cmon. pettersson isn't going to go on hnic and be like 'jt miller sucks. i hate playing with him'.

he gave just about the minimum possible endorsement of miller when asked directly about him. he also mocked miller's stick slamming on the bench with kuzmenko a few games after the delia incident. he obviously doesn't like or respect miller

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

If they weren't willing to take two firsts for him then I agree with you. However, I highly doubt that's true given his contract. They were probably offered two 3rds.

Honestly the 2 1sts report is an insane overpay and shocking to me too, but I'm just going by what was reported

 

[credulous]

Honestly the 2 1sts report is an insane overpay and shocking to me too, but I'm just going by what was reported

it's possible it was like a conditional 2024 first and a 2025 first or something. if it was just the 2023 and 2024 first straight up it's incredible they said no

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Tocchet has addressed this and he's right it starts to hurt your leadership when repeated. He wont let it become an issue.

If half this team had Miller's competitiveness we would be battling Vegas for the division. I dont know why the minute he does something Miller gets an army of hyper sensitive snowflakes taking aim at him but whatever it's your prerogative.

Wonder if the same people get upset about Boeser or Myers indifference and formerly Horvat's. I like his fire but im also not looking for him to be captain so having someone who is noticeably pissed off at players who dont put their A games on the table is ok with me.

We all want it and are sick of the way this team cant play fast hard and 60minutes but then we villainise the coaches managers and players who hold people accountable?


said Pettersson. “I mean, we’ve had our differences, maybe in some games, but he’s a teammate that I respect. He’s someone I like to play hockey with.
“He wants to win so bad and sometimes he maybe gets too hotheaded, if that’s the right word. He cares a lot and just wants to win.”

I have no issues with "competitiveness" or "passion" if a player can back it up with efforts on the ice. The problem is Miller's lack of effort in certain situations (ie: back checking) and his decision making (making ill-advised passes everywhere on the ice). If he holds himself accountable like he hold his teammates, I would have no problem with the occasional outburst. But he doesn't, that is the problem.

 

[VanJack]

I get that Miller wears his heart on his sleeve and lets his frustration show at times.

But that won't play well with Tocchet. Appears that it really bugs him when players show their frustrations or when they drag their butts off the ice after a bad shift.

You watch Tocchet behind the bench, and he's implacable. Even the when the Kraken scored that ugly short-handed goal to tie the game, his facial expression hardly changed. Clearly he regards displays of petulance on the ice as 'a sign of weakness'.

Makes you wonder though how long Miller and Tocchet will be able to co-exist.

 

[rypper]

 

[ahmon]

Tocchet has addressed this and he's right it starts to hurt your leadership when repeated. He wont let it become an issue.

If half this team had Miller's competitiveness we would be battling Vegas for the division. I dont know why the minute he does something Miller gets an army of hyper sensitive snowflakes taking aim at him but whatever it's your prerogative.

Wonder if the same people get upset about Boeser or Myers indifference and formerly Horvat's. I like his fire but im also not looking for him to be captain so having someone who is noticeably pissed off at players who dont put their A games on the table is ok with me.

We all want it and are sick of the way this team cant play fast hard and 60minutes but then we villainise the coaches managers and players who hold people accountable?


said Pettersson. “I mean, we’ve had our differences, maybe in some games, but he’s a teammate that I respect. He’s someone I like to play hockey with.
“He wants to win so bad and sometimes he maybe gets too hotheaded, if that’s the right word. He cares a lot and just wants to win.”

??

If half the team started to give up on plays like Miller and leave the bench early, canucks wouldn't be able to finish the game.

There's a fine line between being competitive and being a negative player affecting your team.

If Miller is so angry why not fight the opponent? why not make sure you are hitting everything that moves and don't give up on plays. He's not channeling it correctly.

Quitting on your team is not a sign of competitiveness, its a sign of weakness.

Just because Boeser and Miller are kind of at the opposite ends of the spectrum - both floating and Miller's over the top actions don't help a team win.

I mean this is not rocket science.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Get this guy a real winger. His playmaking is being wasted, dude had Bo tracking for 50+ goals, but now will finish the season outscoring his line mates combined for the second year in a row.

So bizzarre to see JT refered to as inconsistent, he's been the best Canuck overall during his tenure here (Hughes could be argued as well) He's our only guy to not have a down season, despite a slurry of position changes and line changes.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Get this guy a real winger. His playmaking is being wasted, dude had Bo tracking for 50+ goals, but now will finish the season outscoring his line mates combined for the second year in a row.

So bizzarre to see JT refered to as inconsistent, he's been the best Canuck overall during his tenure here (Hughes could be argued as well) He's our only guy to not have a down season, despite a slurry of position changes and line changes.

Absolutely.

The media/fanbase is so toxic. The narratives on this dude is just excessive and outright stupid. Oh no, he left the bench after he ended his shift with 20 seconds left in the period! Oh no he slammed a stick! Oh no body language!!!

Dude's literally been our best and most consistent player since he's been here but he's treated like trash by the media/fanbase. I completely understand why nobody wants to come here. Worst media/fanbase combination in sports if I had to guess.

 

[sting101]

Re watched the period Seattle vs VCR

Myers 3 poor plays on his first shift...turnover pass with time in neutral zone, shoots right into McCann which almost leads to breakaway and a simple coverage where he just leaves McCann when Eberle has it far side that even Shorty is like WTF. Miller gets high sticked in the face. 5 on 3 Petey and Hughes not sharp making mistakes, Boeser puts a 4 on 2 break into his skates. 2nd unit comes out and Myers rims one into Garlands skates that causes a Tanev breakaway GOAL. Shots 12-11 Vcr at with 14 minutes to play. (Myers truly is a special player holy frack)

Rathbone turnover in transition. Beauvillier ices with a bad pass in neutral zone,. Miller next shift throws 3 hits is noticeably fired up, 4th line good shift, Lucky bounce gets a chance for Eberle GOAL against Pettersson line Burroughs and Pettersson too soft on boards but a lucky bounce for sure

Joshua too slow to make a couple plays, Myers ices it with soft pressure, Myers turnover up boards off faceoff, Rathbone loses 1v1 battle that turns into point shot from Dunn, Then bad pass to a covered Pettersson, Burroughs blind pass up boards picked off, Dries and McDonagh laughably bad in defending the cycle in zone(huge gaps) Larsson misses a tap in off a bad Delia rebound as everyone scrambles because of it, Amen blind pass picked off in our zone (thats 3 in about 5 minutes) on boards again, Boeser and Bear nice exchange, Miller big hit Dunn creates turnover to blueline, Rathbone to PDG who just misses Miller in slot. Good shift Rathbone he's good once were over center ice, Bear-Borgan fight after good give and go forage by Bear, Hirose bad pass in Seattles zone turns it over and Pettersson hangs a leg for a penalty on transition because of it, PP GOAL SEA Schwartz. 3:46 left

Myers and Rathbone collide in neutral zone Myers falls causing chance for SEA, Joshua bad pinch when Seattle coming out of zone leads to 3 on 2 and scoring chance, Off a scramble draw Hirose loses board battle in own zone then Myers who actually gets away with a trip on Wennberg gets puck and sends a poor pass to boards behind PDG which leads to him pushing it out on his backhand under pressure and then a bad elbow penalty in the battle. PP SEA again blocked shot and Myers actually makes his first good play of the period and banks a breakaway pass to Miller who dekes but is hounded enough by Beniers to prevent a goal.

Frustrated Miller goes off and heads to room with 20 seconds left.

Shots last 14minutes of period 13-1 Seattle

Defensive miss cues and turnovers by Myers = 7 Rathbone = 2 Hirose = 2 Burroughs = 1. THATS 12 in 1 period by the D alone that started on the PP......unbelievable
Delia Amen Joshua Beauvillier also had one each
Dries and McDonagh cannot defend either and Joshua cannot keep pace of play with 96 and 40. Not a good game for Amen either.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Why has this board started to quote people from twitter who are irrelevant?

Because if fits their narrative... and most of the people who do this can't really think for themselves so they lean on others.

 

[TryamkinPleaseReturn]

It seems super clear who Miller is at this point. A very good player who is super ideal to have on your team if you are going for it all, as he is a passionate borderline-manic competitor who will drag players along with him. At the same time, he is one of the most embarrassing "leaders" in the league when his team is not good enough. He displays poor body language, a lack of effort, and will be a prickly asshole when things are not going his way, which are basically 3/3 on things that you do NOT want out of someone in a position of leadership on a team.

This entire paragraph could have been written about prime Kesler. And there were probably 20 people I would have rather given the C to than Kesler, but having him on the team, with an A, was great. He was the yang to Bieksa/Sedins yin, classic leadership style. Him and Burrows. But Burrows seemed like a 100% team guy, and let his venom out only at the opposition, whereas Kesler seemed very individualistic. But he wanted to win above all else.

The comparison isn't perfect, they are different, and in fact the only reason I compare the two (JT and Kesler) is because this paragraph reminded me of Kes. But I don't mind having a guy like that at all, especially if you have a great leadership group in place, which I don't see currently... whereas Kesler was clearly not the best player on the team, JT is the most established player. Kesler had Hart caliber guys in front of him, while Petey and Hughes and Demko haven't established themselves as that yet. Partly it's an age thing, and an experience thing. Also, and I'm obviously just guessing here, but I get the sense that Pettersson and Hughes are more individualistic than the Sedins or Bieksa, which is fine, but we need some selfless people to be voices of leadership, with the skill and credibility, who can be a unifying force for the team.

 

[racerjoe]

This is kind of an interesting tangent that I hadn't really considered, excuse the rambling.

Personally, I don't see the issue of quoting someone else to make your point for you. If the opinion-holder being a "nobody" was relevant in any way, then we shouldn't really be talking to each other to begin with, as we could easily say the same thing about each other.

I do prefer when people make their points in their own words, but it does seem weirdly possessive to tell people not to do it, as if there's something wrong with it. Taking someone using a quote to make a point as "trying to pass it off as a substantive thing" sounds like more of a you-taking-things-the-wrong-way-and-needing-to-be-less-presumptuous problem than an actual fair reading (I'm not aware of that poster's history or any potential trend of disingenuousness, though). As far as I can see, there's nothing in his post that actually indicates that. I guess he COULD have added a line saying "I agree with this take:", but at best it comes across as ambiguous and confusing otherwise rather than misleading.

People quote other "nobody" posters for truth all the time-- why does that change if that other poster is from another platform? There's something to be said for giving a person credit for having a thought that you agree with and find more eloquent than you could make. I mean, how obnoxious would it be to respond to someone quoting an MS opinion that they agree with with "Who cares what this nobody thinks!?"

The guy being quoted may be making a stupid point, but that can be individually criticized (along with the choice to pass it along) without anything being wrong with the act of quoting a "nobody"'s opinion, IMO.

It's almost like some of us have become wired to treat Twitter itself as some sort of inherent illusion of authority and respectability, and that may be the actual problem here..... but if so, we really should just stop doing that, rather than start telling people not to use it in any other way, IMO.

The issue with quoting someone on twitter or on some random blog is it suddenly becomes a source.

If someone quotes something I would like to think it has relevance and comes from someone with knowledge.

Just like on the trade boards you can't quote Eklund or someone who doesn't have a proven track record. Its just a completely different issue when the source is from something outside of here.

I have no problem with trying to start a conversation, and clearly Miller's attitude no matter what side you fall on is one worth having as look what it has brought. However again quoting something in that fashion makes it seem like a source. If I have to click out of here to find context, and find out it is some nobody.

Hell even if when you quote it you say this is a nobody, but thought it was worth talking about.

 

[credulous]

i don't ever remember kesler pouting on the bench like miller routinely does

miller is a very talented player but he's absolutely the kind of teammate you hate being around. loudly demands everyone else play better while sulking and taking shifts off himself. maybe tocchet and better leadership can reign him in but maybe he'll just continue to be a toxic asshole. we'll see

 

[Raistlin]

Honestly the 2 1sts report is an insane overpay and shocking to me too, but I'm just going by what was reported

its not though, as you say, if the room has enough leadership, you basically eliminate the Mr. Hyde aspect of Miller. Thats a consistent ppp threat that has passion to succeed sitting on your wing that can jump up to play 2C on a dime. The issue with this team is, they took on the volatility without the leadership safeguard in place. Hughes and Pettersson cannot rein in Miller because Miller does not respect them yet to behave like an adult in front of them. Instead, Miller's idea of reining in his temper is to storm into the room, his immaturity contributing to him being oblivious that the act will create a spectacle in this hyper sensitive media market.

On the penguins, he is worth 2 low 1sts. They wont be fighting for a wildcard if JT replaces Granlund's 4 points in 17 games, or Carter as their 3C. Crosby will put him in his place.

 

[racerjoe]

i don't ever remember kesler pouting on the bench like miller routinely does

miller is a very talented player but he's absolutely the kind of teammate you hate being around. loudly demands everyone else play better while sulking and taking shifts off himself. maybe tocchet and better leadership can reign him in but maybe he'll just continue to be a toxic asshole. we'll see

He wasn't as "emotional" as Miller. I do remember one time it was a story on the back/front of the province when they lost a game, and he broke his stick over his leg. Again he wasn't nearly as bad as Miller is at this.

I think Miller needs to show more control, and listen to him, he knows it too. I also think this is a bit overblown. It is an issue, but not one that deserves as much talk as it gets.

 

[credulous]

He wasn't as "emotional" as Miller. I do remember one time it was a story on the back/front of the province when they lost a game, and he broke his stick over his leg. Again he wasn't nearly as bad as Miller is at this.

there's a huge difference between showing emotion and doing something like breaking a stick and pouting/sulking and checking out. the first is something that happens all the time and is understandable the latter is something losers do

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

let me spell it out for you:

pettersson demurring when asked about miller on hnic and giving the lukewarmest response imaginable combined with him openly mocking miller on the bench during a game tells me at the very least pettersson doesn't respect miller

experience in highly competitive environments with people who publically speak and act like miller makes me suspect at least a few and probably a lot of players don't enjoy playing with miller

literally everyone around the tem up to and including management says the locker room is completely toxic. miller may not be the only reason but he's certainly a reason this is true

If you could simultaneously be toxic and hilarious ...You are definitely pulling it off.

Pettersson on Miller..

"It’s good, um, I mean we’ve had our differences maybe in some games, but he is a teammate that I respect and he’s someone I like to play hockey with,” Pettersson responded. “There’s a lot of speculation obviously but he’s a teammate I respect.”


“He’s a skillful player but he’s, I don’t know if emotional is the right word. He wants to win so bad sometimes he maybe gets too hot-headed, if that’s the right word,” the Swedish superstar said. “He cares a lot and he just wants to win.”

Sounds like a guy you wn with...Thats not lukewarm..its a compliment...Pettersson is literally trying to defend his teammate from fans like yourself.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

 

[mossey3535]

This entire paragraph could have been written about prime Kesler. And there were probably 20 people I would have rather given the C to than Kesler, but having him on the team, with an A, was great. He was the yang to Bieksa/Sedins yin, classic leadership style. Him and Burrows. But Burrows seemed like a 100% team guy, and let his venom out only at the opposition, whereas Kesler seemed very individualistic. But he wanted to win above all else.

The comparison isn't perfect, they are different, and in fact the only reason I compare the two (JT and Kesler) is because this paragraph reminded me of Kes. But I don't mind having a guy like that at all, especially if you have a great leadership group in place, which I don't see currently... whereas Kesler was clearly not the best player on the team, JT is the most established player. Kesler had Hart caliber guys in front of him, while Petey and Hughes and Demko haven't established themselves as that yet. Partly it's an age thing, and an experience thing. Also, and I'm obviously just guessing here, but I get the sense that Pettersson and Hughes are more individualistic than the Sedins or Bieksa, which is fine, but we need some selfless people to be voices of leadership, with the skill and credibility, who can be a unifying force for the team.

I don't remember this behaviour from Kesler though. Maybe I'm just looking back with rose colour glasses but the Kesler I remember just kept trying harder.

 

[God]

Kesler would yell and break his stick to the point that Gillis or Vigneault had to tell him to stop it