Player Discussion JT Miller Thread

[DonnyNucker]

Why has this board started to quote people from twitter who are irrelevant?

You haven’t heard of Ray Hatt?

 

[sandwichbird2023]

I don't remember this behaviour from Kesler though. Maybe I'm just looking back with rose colour glasses but the Kesler I remember just kept trying harder.

I think the comparison to Kesler is pretty off the mark to be honest. Sure, both are talented player that appears to be a little bit difficult at times.

However, the biggest difference are 1) Kesler is an elite defensive player as well, so while he may have a burning desire to win, he back it up with his play on both sides of the puck. Miller...not so much. 2) Until the 2nd half of his last season here, I have never seen Kesler give up on a play. I have seen too many times when JTM just coast back on his back check, costing us goals or scoring chances. Often those chances come off of his own turnovers.

Miller's counting stats are super impressive and gives people the illusion that he has always been good as a Canuck. However, I think his play, like most other players on the roster, has been filled with ups and downs. He has many poor games himself, as well as many great ones.

Again, you can be demanding, you can smash your stick occasionally, you can even yell at teammates if they are not performing well. HOWEVER, you must first be accountable yourself! MacKinnon is known for being super competitive and demanding, but first he make sure they take care of his own game before he start looking at others. JTM need to do the same.

 

[racerjoe]

there's a huge difference between showing emotion and doing something like breaking a stick and pouting/sulking and checking out. the first is something that happens all the time and is understandable the latter is something losers do

Hence why I said not as bad... also again Kesler did break his stick... he wasn't as emotional...

You haven’t heard of Ray Hatt?

shockingly nope. I also don't know Dave in Toronto.

 

[bossram]

I think the comparison to Kesler is pretty off the mark to be honest. Sure, both are talented player that appears to be a little bit difficult at times.

However, the biggest difference are 1) Kesler is an elite defensive player as well, so while he may have a burning desire to win, he back it up with his play on both sides of the puck. Miller...not so much. 2) Until the 2nd half of his last season here, I have never seen Kesler give up on a play. I have seen too many times when JTM just coast back on his back check, costing us goals or scoring chances. Often those chances come off of his own turnovers.

Miller's counting stats are super impressive and gives people the illusion that he has always been good as a Canuck. However, I think his play, like most other players on the roster, has been filled with ups and downs. He has many poor games himself, as well as many great ones.

Again, you can be demanding, you can smash your stick occasionally, you can even yell at teammates if they are not performing well. HOWEVER, you must first be accountable yourself! MacKinnon is known for being super competitive and demanding, but first he make sure they take care of his own game before he start looking at others. JTM need to do the same.

This is the key difference.

Kesler's commitment and work ethic was never in question. Even if things weren't going well, he would always put in the effort defensively.

You can't have a daily tantrum like Miller, and then go out on the next shift and have a controller-disconnected moment.

With Kesler, it looks more like genuine passion/disappointment. With Miller, it just looks like he's a massive baby.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Breaking sticks? is this the Hughes thread?

 

[TryamkinPleaseReturn]

I think the comparison to Kesler is pretty off the mark to be honest. Sure, both are talented player that appears to be a little bit difficult at times.

However, the biggest difference are 1) Kesler is an elite defensive player as well, so while he may have a burning desire to win, he back it up with his play on both sides of the puck. Miller...not so much. 2) Until the 2nd half of his last season here, I have never seen Kesler give up on a play. I have seen too many times when JTM just coast back on his back check, costing us goals or scoring chances. Often those chances come off of his own turnovers.

Miller's counting stats are super impressive and gives people the illusion that he has always been good as a Canuck. However, I think his play, like most other players on the roster, has been filled with ups and downs. He has many poor games himself, as well as many great ones.

Again, you can be demanding, you can smash your stick occasionally, you can even yell at teammates if they are not performing well. HOWEVER, you must first be accountable yourself! MacKinnon is known for being super competitive and demanding, but first he make sure they take care of his own game before he start looking at others. JTM need to do the same.

Agreed about the defensive play, that is a big factor. On the other hand, they are in different situations. Kesler was on one of the best teams in the league. Miller has been on a generally bad team. You said it yourself, at the end of his time here, Kesler started giving up on plays. What changed? The team stopped being competitive, and he was involved in trade rumours constantly. Both those things affect your drive. Those have both been applicable to JT. Now I'm not saying that JT would suddenly focus on both sides of the ice if those two things changed, but... after the trade deadline, when Horvat was the one moved, and when the team started competing at a higher level, it looked like JT did put more hustle and drive into his all round game. Not as much as Kesler, but way better than before. It remains to be seen if he can keep up that drive and commitment to defense into next year.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Hence why I said not as bad... also again Kesler did break his stick... he wasn't as emotional...



shockingly nope. I also don't know Dave in Toronto.

Dave in Toronto is a clown. Don’t listen to that dude

 

[TryamkinPleaseReturn]

I don't remember this behaviour from Kesler though. Maybe I'm just looking back with rose colour glasses but the Kesler I remember just kept trying harder.

Listen to the interview with Bieksa where he talks about how difficult it was playing with Kes. He describes one pre skate where Kesler limps onto the ice, (he blocked a shot previously that hit his ankle), and Bieksa believes he's being way overdramatic, because on the ice Kesler skates perfectly. So Bieksa walks limping behind him, as Burrows cracks up. Kesler doesn't just pout. According to Bieksa, Kesler literally stop speaking with either of them for days and days. I think he said he was Kesler's roommate at the time too. That's a crazy amount of time to shut off communication, it's beyond pouting. And it sounds like it was somewhat resolved by them finally fighting. I can't remember the whole story but it is a really funny story.

Part of these things are different personality types clashing or meshing in uneven ways. I think JT should be more mature since he is in a leadership role, whether he likes it or not. He should really try to build his teammates up every single chance, instead of doing the opposite. But I also suspect he is a better team-mate than we see. We see clips where he's frustrated and talking to the media, and we see some outbursts on the ice. We don't see much. We see his emotion - if he's more mature, he can probably put on a more calm front around people, but also, fans overreact to anything and everything. People get emotional, Bieksa knocked out a teammate in a fight, we just don't hear about everything at the time.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Fight a teammate on a winning team, and be praised, curse at an inanimate object on a losing team, and get shredded.

 

[tradervik]

Miller pouts in front of the cameras, Kesler did his pouting in the dressing room. Both are bad but only one gets called out.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Agreed about the defensive play, that is a big factor. On the other hand, they are in different situations. Kesler was on one of the best teams in the league. Miller has been on a generally bad team. You said it yourself, at the end of his time here, Kesler started giving up on plays. What changed? The team stopped being competitive, and he was involved in trade rumours constantly. Both those things affect your drive. Those have both been applicable to JT. Now I'm not saying that JT would suddenly focus on both sides of the ice if those two things changed, but... after the trade deadline, when Horvat was the one moved, and when the team started competing at a higher level, it looked like JT did put more hustle and drive into his all round game. Not as much as Kesler, but way better than before. It remains to be seen if he can keep up that drive and commitment to defense into next year.

Kesler also played for the Nucks when they missed the playoff. The transition from the WCE to the Sedins era wasn't always smooth. But Kesler never quit. The situations are obviously never exactly the same, but the only thing that should be considered is the player's effort level, and between kesler and JTM its night and day.

For the last half of the Tort season, I think 1) Kesler was burnt out from all the minutes (and they were tough minutes) he was playing under Tort and 2) Kesler just wanted out. I don't think Miller wants out, because otherwise he wouldn't have signed that 7 years extension to lock himself in for 8 seasons total.

Kesler and Miller has some similarities but their approach on the ice are different. I really think JTM on the prime Penguins team with Crosby would be unstoppable, unfortunately for him, he is playing for a team that is perpetually at or near the bottom.

 

[Raistlin]

Miller pouts in front of the cameras, Kesler did his pouting in the dressing room. Both are bad but only one gets called out.

its a good point. Situational awareness is a big part of intelligence. Miller is in a fishbowl market, its time to adept and be more selective with his outbursts. Storming into the room like a TV villain is not the right move, smash some sticks in the room when the cameras are off.

I want the guy to succeed here, but be aware that we are tolerating his blemishes because he is producing near a PPP, halfway through his contract, he will not, then you have a full on problem in the room right when the team is about to take off. I suspect kind of like Wheeler in Winnipeg, you can say he had a negative impact on Scheifele from reports there, another fishbowl market.

 

[Grantham]

Listen to the interview with Bieksa where he talks about how difficult it was playing with Kes. He describes one pre skate where Kesler limps onto the ice, (he blocked a shot previously that hit his ankle), and Bieksa believes he's being way overdramatic, because on the ice Kesler skates perfectly. So Bieksa walks limping behind him, as Burrows cracks up. Kesler doesn't just pout. According to Bieksa, Kesler literally stop speaking with either of them for days and days. I think he said he was Kesler's roommate at the time too. That's a crazy amount of time to shut off communication, it's beyond pouting. And it sounds like it was somewhat resolved by them finally fighting. I can't remember the whole story but it is a really funny story.

Part of these things are different personality types clashing or meshing in uneven ways. I think JT should be more mature since he is in a leadership role, whether he likes it or not. He should really try to build his teammates up every single chance, instead of doing the opposite. But I also suspect he is a better team-mate than we see. We see clips where he's frustrated and talking to the media, and we see some outbursts on the ice. We don't see much. We see his emotion - if he's more mature, he can probably put on a more calm front around people, but also, fans overreact to anything and everything. People get emotional, Bieksa knocked out a teammate in a fight, we just don't hear about everything at the time.

Very well said.

I also have been thinking about these tweets that come out about players, and mainly its JT Miller because he is such an easy target.

Could some of these tweets be from people seeking some measure of prominence? Could they even be people who hate the team and want to watch as their own fans burn it down?

I don't know. But I think we need to stop being so reactionary to these online social media or tweets that are meant to incite.

Yes, JTM has to be get better. And he has. The tantrums per 60 stat has been awesome under Tocchet. He has bought in. But he didn't handle the end of last game as well as he should've. But he owned up to it, and gave us insight about what he is working towards. I give him mad props for that! I know he'll never be perfect, but who of us are?

 

[TryamkinPleaseReturn]

Kesler also played for the Nucks when they missed the playoff. The transition from the WCE to the Sedins era wasn't always smooth. But Kesler never quit. The situations are obviously never exactly the same, but the only thing that should be considered is the player's effort level, and between kesler and JTM its night and day.

For the last half of the Tort season, I think 1) Kesler was burnt out from all the minutes (and they were tough minutes) he was playing under Tort and 2) Kesler just wanted out. I don't think Miller wants out, because otherwise he wouldn't have signed that 7 years extension to lock himself in for 8 seasons total.

Kesler and Miller has some similarities but their approach on the ice are different. I really think JTM on the prime Penguins team with Crosby would be unstoppable, unfortunately for him, he is playing for a team that is perpetually at or near the bottom.

I agree with basically everything here... Kesler did have a incredible commitment to defense and the all-round game, and he really wanted to kill everyone on the ice he played against. That is a level or two above JT. JT should definitely be more engaged, for the whole 60 minutes and for the whole season. He's not the laziest player in the league, but with his skill he should be the hardest worker on the ice, and he would set a great example for the younger guys. Part of it may be conditioning too. Kesler, the Sedins, Burrows, never gave up on plays at the end of a game because that team had insane conditioning, led by the Sedins. Again, leadership.

 

[canuckking1]

Fight a teammate on a winning team, and be praised, curse at an inanimate object on a losing team, and get shredded.

Basically sums it up. When you’re winning everything is right and when you’re losing everything is wrong.

 

[mathonwy]

Tocchet has addressed this and he's right it starts to hurt your leadership when repeated. He wont let it become an issue.

If half this team had Miller's competitiveness we would be battling Vegas for the division. I dont know why the minute he does something Miller gets an army of hyper sensitive snowflakes taking aim at him but whatever it's your prerogative.

Wonder if the same people get upset about Boeser or Myers indifference and formerly Horvat's. I like his fire but im also not looking for him to be captain so having someone who is noticeably pissed off at players who dont put their A games on the table is ok with me.

We all want it and are sick of the way this team cant play fast hard and 60minutes but then we villainise the coaches managers and players who hold people accountable?


said Pettersson. “I mean, we’ve had our differences, maybe in some games, but he’s a teammate that I respect. He’s someone I like to play hockey with.
“He wants to win so bad and sometimes he maybe gets too hotheaded, if that’s the right word. He cares a lot and just wants to win.”

If everyone could just be as competitive as JT miller and his 3 team baggage everything would be fine.

Do you see any problems with the above statement?

 

[mathonwy]

I think the comparison to Kesler is pretty off the mark to be honest. Sure, both are talented player that appears to be a little bit difficult at times.

However, the biggest difference are 1) Kesler is an elite defensive player as well, so while he may have a burning desire to win, he back it up with his play on both sides of the puck. Miller...not so much. 2) Until the 2nd half of his last season here, I have never seen Kesler give up on a play. I have seen too many times when JTM just coast back on his back check, costing us goals or scoring chances. Often those chances come off of his own turnovers.

Miller's counting stats are super impressive and gives people the illusion that he has always been good as a Canuck. However, I think his play, like most other players on the roster, has been filled with ups and downs. He has many poor games himself, as well as many great ones.

Again, you can be demanding, you can smash your stick occasionally, you can even yell at teammates if they are not performing well. HOWEVER, you must first be accountable yourself! MacKinnon is known for being super competitive and demanding, but first he make sure they take care of his own game before he start looking at others. JTM need to do the same.

Miller’s play and extension is a direct reflection of how damaged our culture is.

Aquilinis don’t believe in accountability. Bo does. JT does not.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Miller’s play and extension is a direct reflection of how damaged our culture is.

Aquilinis don’t believe in accountability. Bo does. JT does not.

99 points last season, and tracking for 82 points this season.

It really can’t be any thing else than an unmitigated disaster can it...?..

 

[Shareefruck]

The issue with quoting someone on twitter or on some random blog is it suddenly becomes a source.

If someone quotes something I would like to think it has relevance and comes from someone with knowledge.

Just like on the trade boards you can't quote Eklund or someone who doesn't have a proven track record. Its just a completely different issue when the source is from something outside of here.

I have no problem with trying to start a conversation, and clearly Miller's attitude no matter what side you fall on is one worth having as look what it has brought. However again quoting something in that fashion makes it seem like a source. If I have to click out of here to find context, and find out it is some nobody.

Hell even if when you quote it you say this is a nobody, but thought it was worth talking about.

I just don't agree with that. A quote is not automatically a source or an assertion of authority. If it's perceived that way, that's a problem with perception, not usage. Especially when the comment can in no way be read as an objective claim anyways, but rather is clearly framed as a subjective opinion/rhetoric.

There's also a difference between a rumor and an opinion. A legitimate rumor is one that actually comes from something credible, it's a vague assertion of a real occurrence, but that designation doesn't and shouldn't really exist for an opinion to be legitimate. An opinion should stand on its own merit or lack of merit without appealing to authority.

 

[Peen]

JT is actually a negative asset when he's being whiny and petulant.

But, this team is trying to win now and with Tocchet they might actually be on the playoff side of a bubble team (I predict they get the 1st WC). Winning will take care of the problem at least for a little while. If we unintentionally tank again, it will be a disaster. If we get rid of him and have no 2C but are trying to win that will also be a disaster.

Roll the dice, IMO

we'll be winning the bedard lottery shortly so he'll be out of here

 

[DFAC]

This is kind of an interesting tangent that I hadn't really considered, excuse the rambling.

Personally, I don't see the issue of quoting someone else to make your point for you. If the opinion-holder being a "nobody" was relevant in any way, then we shouldn't really be talking to each other to begin with, as we could easily say the same thing about each other.

I do prefer when people make their points in their own words, but it does seem weirdly possessive to tell people not to do it, as if there's something wrong with it. Taking someone using a quote to make a point as "trying to pass it off as a substantive thing" sounds like more of a you-taking-things-the-wrong-way-and-needing-to-be-less-presumptuous problem than an actual fair reading (I'm not aware of that poster's history or any potential trend of disingenuousness, though). As far as I can see, there's nothing in his post that actually indicates that. I guess he COULD have added a line saying "I agree with this take:", but at best it comes across as ambiguous and confusing otherwise rather than misleading.

People quote other "nobody" posters for truth all the time-- why does that change if that other poster is from another platform? There's something to be said for giving a person credit for having a thought that you agree with and find more eloquent than you could make. I mean, how obnoxious would it be to respond to someone quoting an MS opinion that they agree with with "Who cares what this nobody thinks!?"

The guy being quoted may be making a stupid point, but that can be individually criticized (along with the choice to pass it along) without anything being wrong with the act of quoting a "nobody"'s opinion, IMO.

It's almost like some of us have become wired to treat Twitter itself as some sort of inherent illusion of authority and respectability, and that may be the actual problem here..... but if so, we really should just stop doing that, rather than start telling people not to use it in any other way, IMO.

Yeah I didnt want to state the obvious but we are all literally a bunch of “nobodies” posting on this forum

 

[racerjoe]

I just don't agree with that. A quote is not automatically a source or an assertion of authority. If it's perceived that way, that's a problem with perception, not usage. Especially when the comment can in no way be read as an objective claim anyways, but rather is clearly framed as a subjective opinion/rhetoric.

There's also a difference between a rumor and an opinion. A legitimate rumor is one that actually comes from something credible, it's a vague assertion of a real occurrence, but that designation doesn't and shouldn't really exist for an opinion to be legitimate. An opinion should stand on its own merit or lack of merit without appealing to authority.

And again, quoting someone is fine, especially from this board, but unless specified, it does come off as being framed as a credible source. If the poster had said in his post this is some nobody or something like that fine.

 

[Hyzer]

There’s no evidence of him being a crybaby in Tampa…He was respected by his teammates and the coach.

What do you care..?…Six weeks ago, you publicly announced you were leaving this board to become a Red Wings fan.

So we can see where the bias comes from.

I havent posted since january so dunno where you got that from? But regardless, its grating on his teammates nerves if things don't go his way. Theres pros and cons, and i think that con plus his contract is too rich for my blood

 

[LemonSauceD]

I don’t see Miller in a Canuck uniform next season. I believe Allvin really wanted to move Miller at the deadline but probably wants to wait until the off season to pull the trigger due to obvious reasons.

Teams like Pittsburgh, Washington, and perhaps Carolina would definitely be a good fit for Miller. As long as Pens and Caps have Crosby and Ovechkin still playing, they’re going to try and remain competitive, we should look to take advantage of that.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Fight a teammate on a winning team, and be praised, curse at an inanimate object on a losing team, and get shredded.

*Blame teammates for not trying hard enough while having a number of the worst moments of not trying by anyone in the NHL, some times within 24 hours and get shredded.