Player Discussion JT Miller Thread

[credulous]

You are forgetting about “undesirable” mediocre teams like Ottawa or Winnipeg who may be interested in acquiring someone like Miller.

ottawa would wait until the offseason to see what else is out there i think

winnipeg maybe but they'd have to send bad salary back to the canucks to make it work and it would mean they'd lose pld in the offseason

 

[TruGr1t]

 

[mriswith]

Trading JT Miller for peanuts means that there's probably zero successful pathways for this team to reasonably compete in 2-3 years.

You'll probably have to trade Petey and Hughes at that point as well... just something to consider.

It's going to take 2-3 years to turn the defense into something competitive. It's just Hughes and then a sea of #6's, and a big question mark around Demko. It takes time to pick up a new bunch of top 4 dmen and Miller being here or not doesn't change that.

I don't think telling Pettersson "hey, you are the franchise and we're going to build around you" and then following through on that has less of a chance of keeping him around than continuing to pretend we're a competitive team and falling flat on our face every year.

 

[JohnHodgson]

i just gave you 3 players who were drafted less than 2 years ago who could replace miller. you don't think smith or stenberg or moore could be that player two years from now?

Cole Sillinger has 8 points in 54 games this year... what are you talking about?

Beniers is a 2nd overall pick. I don't think there's a C level prospect this year that we can get outside of Bedard and Fantili at that level.

It's going to take 2-3 years to turn the defense into something competitive. It's just Hughes and then a sea of #6's, and a big question mark around Demko. It takes time to pick up a new bunch of top 4 dmen and Miller being here or not doesn't change that.

I don't think telling Pettersson "hey, you are the franchise and we're going to build around you" and then following through on that has less of a chance of keeping him around than continuing to pretend we're a competitive team and falling flat on our face every year.

I think telling Pettersson "hey we just traded one of the best players on the team playing 2C for peanuts, but we will definitely be competitive soon! Just trust us!" is exactly going to work either.

Canucks aren't going to just dump Miller off for nothing... that would go against everything they have done or said at this point.

The offer has to be substantial for the Canucks to bite. There's nobody in the organization that is even closed to replicating what Miller can provide to the team right now as a 2C that can play all situations and 20 minutes a night.

 

[credulous]

people around here are way too worried about pettersson "leaving" if he doesn't like the direction the team goes. fact is he has already decided to leave or he'll stay either because of the money or because he believes in management (and because of the money). he's not going to throw up his hands and quit because they traded miller

 

[Icebreakers]

What about neither a mind blowing offer or peanuts

1st+Kotnamiemi

Lol

 

[wonton15]

What about neither a mind blowing offer or peanuts

1st+Kotnamiemi

Lol

Given recent trades, I’d hope that Allvin can squeeze a lot more than that. Throw in Morrow and we’ll drop in Schenn too

 

[JohnHodgson]

people around here are way too worried about pettersson "leaving" if he doesn't like the direction the team goes. fact is he has already decided to leave or he'll stay either because of the money or because he believes in management (and because of the money). he's not going to throw up his hands and quit because they traded miller

Petey wants to win NOW.

Trading Miller for nothing DIRECTLY goes against that.

Canucks fans LOVE shit talking JT (because y'all toxic) - he's still one of the best players on the team. He drives play and scored 99 points for us last year god damn.

Trading Miller for PEANUTS just sets this team back. So what that we open up cap space? the UFA market is atrocious and maybe we can take some bad contracts to get some picks but how is that going to help Petey win NOW? This is Petey's 5th year of losing (aside from a mini Bubble playoffs run). I doubt someone as competitive as Petey is okay to lose for another 5 years. We have to right the ship in 2-3 years if want to keep him.

What about neither a mind blowing offer or peanuts

1st+Kotnamiemi

Lol

This is okay.

It's not a home run or a big win for the Canucks but there are merits to something like this. I'd be okay with it. A lot of people hate on the KK contract but it's not going to look bad with the cap going up. He's still developing and already a competent 3C - definitely has potential to be a 2C.

 

[credulous]

Petey wants to win NOW.

i mean okay but they're not going to be winning now even with miller

they still have a ton of unproductive money to move out, zero relevant prospects and maybe one and half nhl defenders. if you think pettersson is going to leave because the team is uncompetitive then you should definitely move miller because he's not nearly enough to make them competitive and moving him sooner rather than later helps you get back to within sight of being competitive

 

[Brock Boeser Laser Show]

it pretty much has to be carolina. pacioretty and staal are expiring so carolina can easily take on miller's deal

vegas would have to figure out how to get karlsson or martinez off their books and that still wouldn't be enough for them to carry miller past this year

edmonton i guess could send back campbell and puljujarvi but why would vancouver want to do that?

toronto has no hope of making cap space for miller either at the deadline or going forward

are there any other buyers? outside chance of los angeles maybe?

I mean any team needing a center next year would probably check in. Wouldn't rule out teams like Detroit or Columbus or St Louis. Detroit might want insurance if they can't lock up Larkin. Columbus and St Louis are looking to buy (they were after chychurn and Meier). Who knows maybe even Philly would be interested with Fletcher's job in jeopardy and very little available in free agency this summer to improve the roster.

Among contenders I'd say Carolina, Colorado and Dallas make some sense.

 

[tnnr]

I know Allvin would really like Noel Gunnler if Carolina was the team acquiring JT...

 

[credulous]

I mean any team needing a center next year would probably check in. Wouldn't rule out teams like Detroit or Columbus or St Louis. Detroit might want insurance if they can't lock up Larkin. Columbus and St Louis are looking to buy (they were after chychurn and Meier). Who knows maybe even Philly would be interested with Fletcher's job in jeopardy and very little available in free agency this summer to improve the roster.

Among contenders I'd say Carolina, Colorado and Dallas make some sense.

why would st louis, detroit or columbus pay deadline prices? they'd take a swing at the draft

colorado could do it if vancouver play ball and take back someone like girard or manson. dallas it doesn't work cap wise i think. maybe if they have soured on marchment and vancouver will take him on?

 

[JohnHodgson]

i mean okay but they're not going to be winning now even with miller

they still have a ton of unproductive money to move out, zero relevant prospects and maybe one and half nhl defenders. if you think pettersson is going to leave because the team is uncompetitive then you should definitely move miller because he's not nearly enough to make them competitive and moving him sooner rather than later helps you get back to within sight of being competitive

There's a pathway to win in 2-3 years with Miller here. He'd only be 32-33 at that point... won't be completely washed.

If we trade Miller for nothing... I don't see any realistic pathways to win for another 4-5 years. Miller leaving is a massive blackhole. We have to be getting something back of value.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh

oooh..reliable source Shayna..who can forget?...a bit clickbaitey maybe..?

 

[credulous]

There's a pathway to win in 2-3 years with Miller here. He'd only be 32-33 at that point... won't be completely washed.

If we trade Miller for nothing... I don't see any realistic pathways to win for another 4-5 years. Miller leaving is a massive blackhole. We have to be getting something back of value.

2-3 years is too late if pettersson is going to force his way out. he'll decline to extend this summer and then force the issue in 2024. if he signs an extension he'll lose all leverage

 

[mriswith]

I could see Detroit wanting to take a swing at the wild card. They're in striking range of it and they clearly felt pressure to compete this year given their offseason moves and how advantageous it would have been to delay those moves by another year.

I'd rate them a very dark horse for Miller and pretty far down the list of likely suspects but I wouldn't rule them out completely. Carolina has always made the most sense and been the best fit other than their mgmt philosophy.

Personally I'm rooting for Calgary to come out of nowhere and acquire Miller out of pure desperation. I have absolutely no idea how they'd make it work next year but I'm not sure Treliving cares about that at all at this point.

 

[Brock Boeser Laser Show]

why would st louis, detroit or columbus pay deadline prices? they'd take a swing at the draft

colorado could do it if vancouver play ball and take back someone like girard or manson. dallas it doesn't work cap wise i think. maybe if they have soured on marchment and vancouver will take him on?

Because there isn't many decent centers available this summer. If they don't get aggressive they will miss out.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Keeping Miller pretty much guarantees you’re not reasonably competitive for 2-3 years.

Absolutely not true at all. The concept behind this statement doesn't make sense.

Miller is playing up to his contract right now and not a liability - he's not an OEL/Myers. He hasn't shown any signs of slowing down, he'll probably be effective till he's 34/35 or maybe longer.

Miller's best traits are probably his offensive IQ, passing abilities and his shot. You don't just lose these traits overnight.

He's not a power forward so he doesn't need to rely on his size and body. He's not a speedster so he's still going be effective as he slows down.

There's a VERY good track record for star-level forwards producing past 33/34. Just look at Kane, Toews, Kopitar, Backstrom, Ovechkin, Crosby, Wheeler, Couture, Pavelski, Giroux, Marchand, Malkin etc.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Petey wants to win NOW.

Trading Miller for nothing DIRECTLY goes against that.

Canucks fans LOVE shit talking JT (because y'all toxic) - he's still one of the best players on the team. He drives play and scored 99 points for us last year god damn.

Trading Miller for PEANUTS just sets this team back. So what that we open up cap space? the UFA market is atrocious and maybe we can take some bad contracts to get some picks but how is that going to help Petey win NOW? This is Petey's 5th year of losing (aside from a mini Bubble playoffs run). I doubt someone as competitive as Petey is okay to lose for another 5 years. We have to right the ship in 2-3 years if want to keep him.



This is okay.

It's not a home run or a big win for the Canucks but there are merits to something like this. I'd be okay with it. A lot of people hate on the KK contract but it's not going to look bad with the cap going up. He's still developing and already a competent 3C - definitely has potential to be a 2C.

That’s nice that Pettersson wants to win now. It isn’t going to happen. You can’t just snap your fingers and say “well we’re going to win now.”

 

[JohnHodgson]

That’s nice that Pettersson wants to win now. It isn’t going to happen. You can’t just snap your fingers and say “well we’re going to win now.”

That's kind of a no shit statement no?

But if you trade Miller for peanuts, what kind of message does that send to Petey?

Hey we just traded our second best forward on the team for nothing - you're going to have to carry even a bigger load and we're still going to suck for the next 2-3 years. Want to sign an extension?

 

[y2kcanucks]

Absolutely not true at all. The concept behind this statement doesn't make sense.

Miller is playing up to his contract right now and not a liability - he's not an OEL/Myers. He hasn't shown any signs of slowing down, he'll probably be effective till he's 34/35 or maybe longer.

Miller's best traits are probably his offensive IQ, passing abilities and his shot. You don't just lose these traits overnight.

He's not a power forward so he doesn't need to rely on his size and body. He's not a speedster so he's still going be effective as he slows down.

There's a VERY good track record for star-level forwards producing past 33/34. Just look at Kane, Toews, Kopitar, Backstrom, Ovechkin, Crosby, Wheeler, Couture, Pavelski, Giroux, Marchand, Malkin etc.

He’s on pace for a 25% reduction in his offensive production. How is that not showing signs of slowing down? He’ll be 30 when that contract kicks in, and he’s a defensive liability. Yes he’s still producing at a 70 point rate, but that offense will dry up in his 30’s. When it does, that contract becomes a massive liability.

That's kind of a no shit statement no?

But if you trade Miller for peanuts, what kind of message does that send to Petey?

Hey we just traded our second best forward on the team for nothing - you're going to have to carry even a bigger load and we're still going to suck for the next 2-3 years. Want to sign an extension?

You’d think it was a no shit statement, but judging by your recent posts in this thread I wasn’t so sure.

Does Pettersson run this team? Is he above the best interests of this team? Is the message you send to Pettersson worth more than actual results? Is he going to be happy with losing just because you tried to win and failed (the same thing this team has done for a decade)?

 

[JohnHodgson]

He’s on pace for a 25% reduction in his offensive production. How is that not showing signs of slowing down? He’ll be 30 when that contract kicks in, and he’s a defensive liability. Yes he’s still producing at a 70 point rate, but that offense will dry up in his 30’s. When it does, that contract becomes a massive liability.

Cmon man.

Can't take you seriously when you say something like that.

JTM had a career year - a statistical aberration last year. Everyone knew that... even he knew that. That's why his contract is for $8M - a contract for a 70-80 point player, not a 99 point player. The year prior to last year he had 118 points in 122 games. He currently has 54 points in 59 games - hardly a drop off.

He’s on pace for a 25% reduction in his offensive production. How is that not showing signs of slowing down? He’ll be 30 when that contract kicks in, and he’s a defensive liability. Yes he’s still producing at a 70 point rate, but that offense will dry up in his 30’s. When it does, that contract becomes a massive liability.


You’d think it was a no shit statement, but judging by your recent posts in this thread I wasn’t so sure.

Does Pettersson run this team? Is he above the best interests of this team? Is the message you send to Pettersson worth more than actual results? Is he going to be happy with losing just because you tried to win and failed (the same thing this team has done for a decade)?

That doesn't make sense.

Petey is due for an extension after next year. He has a ton of leverage. If he was signed to a long-term deal, I would totally agree with you.

What you do up until the extension absolutely matters. If Petey doesn't want to stay, nothing else matters for this team.

 

[JohnHodgson]

God JT Miller is the most hated player on the Canucks for no god damn reason.

Dude's been our best forward for the last 4 years and just came off a 99 point year where he carried the hell out of this team.

He's been an absolute warrior for us and half the fanbase hates him. No wonder why players don't want to deal with this fanbase/media... extremely toxic.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Cmon man.

Can't take you seriously when you say something like that.

JTM had a career year - a statistical aberration last year. Everyone knew that... even he knew that. That's why his contract is for $8M - a contract for a 70-80 point player, not a 99 point player. The year prior to last year he had 118 points in 122 games. He currently has 54 points in 59 games - hardly a drop off.



That doesn't make sense.

Petey is due for an extension after next year. He has a ton of leverage. If he was signed to a long-term deal, I would totally agree with you.

What you do up until the extension absolutely matters. If Petey doesn't want to stay, nothing else matters for this team.

You can’t take me seriously when I point to a fact? I guess facts don’t matter to some people. Wouldn’t be the first time either…had countless arguments with people about Jim Benning and learned that facts didn’t matter to them. Oh well.

Not sure what doesn’t make sense re: Pettersson. Just because he’s due a contract soon doesn’t mean you can just snap your fingers and the team will suddenly start winning. It also doesn’t mean you just keep doing what you’ve been doing for 10 years which is try to win and end up failing anyways. That isn’t going to keep Pettersson around either.

God JT Miller is the most hated player on the Canucks for no god damn reason.

Dude's been our best forward for the last 4 years and just came off a 99 point year where he carried the hell out of this team.

He's been an absolute warrior for us and half the fanbase hates him. No wonder why players don't want to deal with this fanbase/media... extremely toxic.

I don’t know that Miller is hated as much as the contract is hated. Because the contract makes zero sense. He’s a useful player right now, that will become a complete liability of a contract in a few years. To a team like the Canucks who are not going to be legitimate playoff contenders for 3-4 years, the timing is incredibly poor. This isn’t difficult to understand.

 

[JohnHodgson]

You can’t take me seriously when I point to a fact? I guess facts don’t matter to some people. Wouldn’t be the first time either…had countless arguments with people about Jim Benning and learned that facts didn’t matter to them. Oh well.

Not sure what doesn’t make sense re: Pettersson. Just because he’s due a contract soon doesn’t mean you can just snap your fingers and the team will suddenly start winning. It also doesn’t mean you just keep doing what you’ve been doing for 10 years which is try to win and end up failing anyways. That isn’t going to keep Pettersson around either.


I don’t know that Miller is hated as much as the contract is hated. Because the contract makes zero sense. He’s a useful player right now, that will become a complete liability of a contract in a few years. To a team like the Canucks who are not going to be legitimate playoff contenders for 3-4 years, the timing is incredibly poor. This isn’t difficult to understand.

Do you know what a statistical outlier is? If you understand anything about statistics at all or took any introduction to stats course in ANY high school or university course, you would understand what that means. NOBODY thought JTM was a 99 point player. He was a 70-80 point player that had a statistical outlier. His current production is actually ON TREND with the previous seasons before his STATISTICAL OUTLIER. I suggest Googling if you need help to understand this concept.

Your point re Pettersson doesn't make sense. Nobody is snapping any fingers to do anything. There is however a realistic pathway to success in 2-3 years if they do it right. Trading JTM for peanuts would not contribute to that pathway. If you honestly think Petey is willing to wait another 4-5 years to be competitive, I have a free cruise to give you.

Saying the contract makes "zero sense" is honestly just outing yourself. I get it though... Canucks media has been shagging on this contract for so long, just an echo chamber of biased comments. Try looking at the contract objectively.... think for yourself and don't let the media influence you.

Complete liability? How so? Do you really think Miller is going to be a 4th line forward scoring 10 points in 3/4 years? He'll likely be overpaid by 34/35 but he can probably still be a productive top six forward that specializes on the PP (see Giroux, Kopitar, Malkin, Kane, Pavelski etc.) Star level forwards tend to age very well... even Jamie Benn is having a bounce back year. The cap will be up in 4/5 years and 8M will be not what it is today as a % of the cap. If JTM can score 50 points in a top six role on the PP at age 34/35, is he a complete liability? This isn't a video game. Players tend to age on a curve... JTM can still provide value on his backend of his contract and not be a "complete liability" as you say. Just saying something doesn't make it accurate. JTM is going to decline on a curve. He might be a "complete liability" in his last 2 years of his deal, but that's 5 years away. Hardly a few years.

Do you know for a fact that Canucks won't be playoff contenders for 3-4 years? Based on what exactly? NJD picked second overall last year and are now competing for the Cup this year. Nobody has a crystal ball in sports. Success of a franchise can change fast - both ways. Saying stuff like this really just shows that you don't understand sports, which is kind of crazy since you've been watching for a while.