Player Discussion JT Miller Thread

[JohnHodgson]

They weren't even a bottom 10 team last year, let alone the last 10.

Don't mistake pessimism for realism. Exaggerating the negatives, can lead to worse moves than hope.

Everyone thinks they can stomach stripping it down, until EP and Hughes are gone, and our 1st lotto pick ends up a 3rd liner, and the 2nd a concussion case. A scorched earth requires straight up blind luck to be successful, countless moves need to go right, and you can still end up with a middling team at best.

Same people yelling for scored earth rebuild will probably stop supporting the team after year 2/3.

That's the hypocrisy of the fans in Vancouver. Probably why Frankie doesn't want to rebuild.

The worse is when fans want to trade everything except Hughes, Demko, and Petey. Like those guys would want to stay and waste their primes for a 5-6 year rebuild LOL.

... the team has been a bottom 10 team in the league for 10 years.

Worse than that, after 10 years of being a bottom 10 team they are not close to the playoffs + are capped out + have a bottom 5 prospect pool + somehow believe they are close to cup contention.

Nobody thinks this team is close to cup contention? What the? lol

Team is trying to get younger and trying to build. They've demonstrated that with their acquisitions so far, outside of JT Miller.

I have no problems with them keeping their best forward that scored 99 points in a 1C role. The contract is fine right now. Until he completely slows down, you can complain about his contract then.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

OEL is playing like a #6 defensemen making 7M.

Boeser is playing like a bottom end second line forward making 6.6M.

Garland is barely passing by as a top nine forward making 5M.

Myers is playing like a #5 making 6M.

Miller (who is still making 5M mind you), even considering his 8M extension, is not even the worst value on this team. These players are playing far worse for their salary.

Yet somehow, Miller is taking more brunt of the blame than all these players combined. Canucks fanbase is truly toxic af.

I wanted Miller traded too. I also understanding signing him to an extension. In terms of problems, Miller is not even close to the top on this team.

Miller is a leader of this team (if/when Bo leaves also future Captain), just signed a massive extension, the team seemingly picked him over Horvat, he is on pace to finish -24, he is a top line player that (this year) has constantly given up on plays which lead to goals, constantly tried to make dumb plays which lead to goals and has shown he has the temperament of a child out there, oh and he got into it with one of his own players after said player felt so compelled by JT's childish antics that he called him out while on the ice. To top it off he is on pace to finish with 73 points which points to last year being (as most of us realists thought) an anomaly, we're paying this guy 8 million a year for the foreseeable future, all while being a bottom 10 team in the league and having no real hope of turning the tides.

But you don't understand why Miller is taking much of the blame.......ok.....

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Same people yelling for scored earth rebuild will probably stop supporting the team after year 2/3.

That's the hypocrisy of the fans in Vancouver. Probably why Frankie doesn't want to rebuild.

The worse is when fans want to trade everything except Hughes, Demko, and Petey. Like those guys would want to stay and waste their primes for a 5-6 year rebuild LOL.

Nobody thinks this team is close to cup contention? What the? lol

Team is trying to get younger and trying to build. They've demonstrated that with their acquisitions so far, outside of JT Miller.

I have no problems with them keeping their best forward that scored 99 points in a 1C role. The contract is fine right now. Until he completely slows down, you can complain about his contract then.

So these same people that have been supporting a mediocre team that hasn't had any sort of success, direction or hope for the last 10 years will stop supporting them if they try something different that might actually work? Really?

Our owner doesn't want to rebuild because he wants a quick fix and has been bamboozled by the last two management groups into thinking it's possible. Period.

 

[KaraLupin]

I like semi-emotional players, it's good for team mates to see their peer care so much about winning the game. Although some of you hear think it just traumatizes them for no reason. There is a nothing worse than a quiet leader that shows no passion.

Now there is a point where the emotion starts to hinder you, and I'm talking about him being on the ice playing. It's clear he can not move off when things don't go right. It gets into his head and affects his mental.

This is how he was in NY, lots of promise but hindered himself. Last season he was fairly composed consistently, and it's no coincidence he had his biggest season offensively. I truly believe talking to him about seeing a sports psychologist in the off-season would be the biggest thing you can do to reach last year's player again in the future.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

As opposed to what we've been doing the last 10 years which has worked so damn well....most of us are sick of the same crap over and over and over, it's like freaking ground hog day every year.

The last decade has been a mix of numerous coaches, managers, and multiple turnovers of core players. It's convenient to package it as the 'same thing', but it's just not the case. The constant, has been failure, sure, but so is true to the majority of franchises. It's a very complex league.

Screaming 'Rebuild' isn't a plan. This team has rebuilt, multiple times, regardless of if it's admitted. The complaint is that it was done unintentionally, or improperly. Valid, but there's no reason to think another honest attempt will produce anything better.

There is reason to try and continue with this core, or at least partial core, as the hardest pieces to acquire are already here. Fans can debate endlessly on if it will or will not work.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

The last decade has been a mix of numerous coaches, managers, and multiple turnovers of core players. It's convenient to package it as the 'same thing', but it's just not the case. The constant, has been failure, sure, but so is true to the majority of franchises. It's a very complex league.

Screaming 'Rebuild' isn't a plan. This team has rebuilt, multiple times, regardless of if it's admitted. The complaint is that it was done unintentionally, or improperly. Valid, but there's no reason to think another honest attempt will produce anything better.

There is reason to try and continue with this core, or at least partial core, as the hardest pieces to acquire are already here. Fans can debate endlessly on if it will or will not work.

Great, the direction of a re-tool quick fix has been done by all of the numerous coaches, managers and players, the plan has stayed the same through out, not sure how that can be looked at as anything other than the same thing but ok...

We've sucked many times over the last 10 years, sure, we have never actually properly rebuilt as that includes obtaining picks not giving them away, weaponizing cap space, not spending to the cap on mediocre players paying them too much, etc. How is there no reason to think a rebuild will work when we haven't actually done a proper rebuild?

EP Hughes and Demko, build around them, explain the plan, get them to buy in given a proper direction, otherwise none of those players remain on the team over the years given the same failing direction which is hardly any better, is it?

I like semi-emotional players, it's good for team mates to see their peer care so much about winning the game. Although some of you hear think it just traumatizes them for no reason. There is a nothing worse than a quiet leader that shows no passion.

Now there is a point where the emotion starts to hinder you, and I'm talking about him being on the ice playing. It's clear he can not move off when things don't go right. It gets into his head and affects his mental.

This is how he was in NY, lots of promise but hindered himself. Last season he was fairly composed consistently, and it's no coincidence he had his biggest season offensively. I truly believe talking to him about seeing a sports psychologist in the off-season would be the biggest thing you can do to reach last year's player again in the future.

Why wait, do it now, the Canucks used to be big on this, wonder if they still are.

 

[JohnHodgson]

The last decade has been a mix of numerous coaches, managers, and multiple turnovers of core players. It's convenient to package it as the 'same thing', but it's just not the case. The constant, has been failure, sure, but so is true to the majority of franchises. It's a very complex league.

Screaming 'Rebuild' isn't a plan. This team has rebuilt, multiple times, regardless of if it's admitted. The complaint is that it was done unintentionally, or improperly. Valid, but there's no reason to think another honest attempt will produce anything better.

There is reason to try and continue with this core, or at least partial core, as the hardest pieces to acquire are already here. Fans can debate endlessly on if it will or will not work.

Amen brother.

Guys like Dance and other media boys just clamouring for a full out rebuild, and shutting down the current approach is just mind boggling to me.

I personally prefer a full out rebuild but I know the chances of winning the Cup aren't that much higher than the current approach to keep building.

What I don't understand is people want to tear the whole thing down but expect Petey, Hughes and Demko to just wait 5-6 years and waste their primes here?

If we do a full tear down, how long will we take to find the next core pieces like Petey, Hughes and Demko? 3 years? 5 years? 10 years?

I think we can do a full tear-down anytime. But while we have Petey, Hughes and Demko, why not try to build and contend for 2-3 years? If it doesn't work out, we can tear the whole thing down the same way. The option for a full rebuild will ALWAYS be available to us.

Edmonton, and Buffalo tanked for like a decade and still can't find a goalie.

Last couple Cup winners:

Makar, Rantanen, Mackinnon, Landeskog.

Stamkos, Hedman, Vasi, Kuch.

ROR, Tarasenko, Binner, Pietrangelo

Kuznetsov, Carlson, Ovechkin, Backstrom

We're not quite there yet but we're close. Hughes, Petey, Demko, Miller. If they live up to their potential, you can argue this core being close to Washington or St. Louis. We have some really good pieces, we just need to build around them properly.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Amen brother.

Guys like Dance and other media boys just clamouring for a full out rebuild, and shutting down the current approach is just mind boggling to me.

I personally prefer a full out rebuild but I know the chances of winning the Cup aren't that much higher than the current approach to keep building.

What I don't understand is people want to tear the whole thing down but expect Petey, Hughes and Demko to just wait 5-6 years and waste their primes here?

If we do a full tear down, how long will we take to find the next core pieces like Petey, Hughes and Demko? 3 years? 5 years? 10 years?

I think we can do a full tear-down anytime. But while we have Petey, Hughes and Demko, why not try to build and contend for 2-3 years? If it doesn't work out, we can tear the whole thing down the same way. The option for a full rebuild will ALWAYS be available to us.

Edmonton, and Buffalo tanked for like a decade and still can't find a goalie.

Last couple Cup winners:

Makar, Rantanen, Mackinnon, Landeskog.

Stamkos, Hedman, Vasi, Kuch.

ROR, Tarasenko, Binner, Pietrangelo

Kuznetsov, Carlson, Ovechkin, Backstrom

We're not quite there yet but we're close. Hughes, Petey, Demko, Miller. If they live up to their potential, you can argue this core being close to Washington or St. Louis. We have some really good pieces, we just need to build around them properly.

How is continuing along the same path of insanity being a problem mind boggling to you?

All the teams you mention had multiple draft picks, had/have solid blue lines, and actually rebuilt properly, rebuilds don't take 10 years either, if proper its like 3 years max.

 

[rypper]

At least some of the Miller hate comes from his contract extension basically signaling there would be no real change, no rebuild, no trading for picks/prospects etc, ideas that a lot of fans after the last 8 years were hoping for.

 

[NYVanfan]

Miller is a leader of this team (if/when Bo leaves also future Captain), just signed a massive extension, the team seemingly picked him over Horvat, he is on pace to finish -24, he is a top line player that (this year) has constantly given up on plays which lead to goals, constantly tried to make dumb plays which lead to goals and has shown he has the temperament of a child out there, oh and he got into it with one of his own players after said player felt so compelled by JT's childish antics that he called him out while on the ice. To top it off he is on pace to finish with 73 points which points to last year being (as most of us realists thought) an anomaly, we're paying this guy 8 million a year for the foreseeable future, all while being a bottom 10 team in the league and having no real hope of turning the tides.

But you don't understand why Miller is taking much of the blame.......ok.....

This 100%
I wanted him traded but was reluctantly OK with signing, was market value for a player of that caliber.
This year though his play has been reprehensible with the quitting/pouting/cursing/floating … possible to escape the conclusion that the “chemistry“ issues begin and ended with him.
Regardless, you have to hope he can get back to the player he was last year and that a hard nosed guy like Tocchet can give him the kick in the pants he needs (I do think however if we’re actually hiring a coach with a primary goal of teaching our nearly 30 year old $60M player how to play the right way, it’s the height of absurdity….anyway)

I also agree with people saying a full scorched earth rebuild would be a long painful gamble …i just want them to maximize the return for all UFAs. Think of what we could get out of this draft and with some young players as well if we sell Horvat/Kuz/Schenn …we would still have a top 6 to work with of:

Mik-EP-BB
Gar-JT-Pod/Hog

and if we can find a way to shed Myers after he’s paid out we will have capspace too. That is best case scenario for the summer imo.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

This 100%
I wanted him traded but was reluctantly OK with signing, was market value for a player of that caliber.
This year though his play has been reprehensible with the quitting/pouting/cursing/floating … possible to escape the conclusion that the “chemistry“ issues begin and ended with him.
Regardless, you have to hope he can get back to the player he was last year and that a hard nosed guy like Tocchet can give him the kick in the pants he needs (I do think however if we’re actually hiring a coach with a primary goal of teaching our nearly 30 year old $60M player how to play the right way, it’s the height of absurdity….anyway)

I also agree with people saying a full scorched earth rebuild would be a long painful gamble …i just want them to maximize the return for all UFAs. Think of what we could get out of this draft and with some young players as well if we sell Horvat/Kuz/Schenn …we would still have a top 6 to work with of:

Mik-EP-BB
Gar-JT-Pod/Hog

and if we can find a way to shed Myers after he’s paid out we will have capspace too. That is best case scenario for the summer imo.

Could not agree more with this, scorched earth rebuild isn't necessary even, just make smart trades this year, if possible move guys like Boeser, Garland, Myers (after his bonus) and get some sort of return while creating valuable cap space.

That's really it.

 

[Bgav]

Jt Miller is not the future captain wtf lmao.

 

[IslandBeast]

OEL is playing like a #6 defensemen making 7M.

Boeser is playing like a bottom end second line forward making 6.6M.

Garland is barely passing by as a top nine forward making 5M.

Myers is playing like a #5 making 6M.

Miller (who is still making 5M mind you), even considering his 8M extension, is not even the worst value on this team. These players are playing far worse for their salary.

Yet somehow, Miller is taking more brunt of the blame than all these players combined. Canucks fanbase is truly toxic af.

I wanted Miller traded too. I also understanding signing him to an extension. In terms of problems, Miller is not even close to the top on this team.

Miller gets shit on by the fans for being a toxic headcase around the team, not because he isn't scoring points.

 

[Nucker101]

They weren't even a bottom 10 team last year, let alone the last 10. Averages mean little when you've had complete roster and suit turnover. Really just means pain for fans, but not the shape of the team as a whole.

Don't mistake pessimism for realism. Exaggerating the negatives, can lead to worse moves than hope.

Everyone thinks they can stomach stripping it down, until EP and Hughes are gone, and our 1st lotto pick ends up a 3rd liner, and the 2nd a concussion case. A scorched earth requires straight up blind luck to be successful, countless moves need to go right, and you can still end up with a middling team at best.

I’ll take those odds or whatever the hell this franchise has been doing over the past decade

 

[PuckMunchkin]

These are wild... Also, how is Dries so high here?

Credit to Cam Charron. If you like, go subscribe to theathetic.com

 

[credulous]

OEL is playing like a #6 defensemen making 7M.

Boeser is playing like a bottom end second line forward making 6.6M.

Garland is barely passing by as a top nine forward making 5M.

Myers is playing like a #5 making 6M.

Miller (who is still making 5M mind you), even considering his 8M extension, is not even the worst value on this team. These players are playing far worse for their salary.

Yet somehow, Miller is taking more brunt of the blame than all these players combined. Canucks fanbase is truly toxic af.

I wanted Miller traded too. I also understanding signing him to an extension. In terms of problems, Miller is not even close to the top on this team.

miller is signed for 7 more years compared to 4 for oel, 2 for boeser, 3 for garland and 1 for myers. i don't think anyone thinks miller is the worst value on the team but he's the biggest anchor going forward apart from maybe oel

 

[Nucker101]

View attachment 641257
View attachment 641258

These are wild... Also, how is Dries so high here?

Credit to Cam Charron. If you like, go subscribe to theathetic.com

The next egg on the face of the re-tool gang will be seeing Miller fail at Center again.

 

[credulous]

Last couple Cup winners:

Makar, Rantanen, Mackinnon, Landeskog.

Stamkos, Hedman, Vasi, Kuch.

ROR, Tarasenko, Binner, Pietrangelo

Kuznetsov, Carlson, Ovechkin, Backstrom

We're not quite there yet but we're close. Hughes, Petey, Demko, Miller. If they live up to their potential, you can argue this core being close to Washington or St. Louis. We have some really good pieces, we just need to build around them properly.

colorado also had kadri, nichushkin, burakovsky, lehkonen, toews, byram

tampa also had point, cirelli, palat, gourde, killorn, sergachev and killorn

st louis also had perron, schenn, schwartz, dunn, thomas, parakyo and bouwmeester

washington also had oshie, eller, orlov, wilson and burakovsky

 

[PuckMunchkin]

colorado also had kadri, nichushkin, burakovsky, lehkonen, toews, byram

tampa also had point, cirelli, palat, gourde, killorn, sergachev and killorn

st louis also had perron, schenn, schwartz, dunn, thomas, parakyo and bouwmeester

washington also had oshie, eller, orlov, wilson and burakovsky

I have no clue what that guy is on about...

He will now attack you for disagreeing and say "LOL" or "hur dur."

 

[credulous]

I have no clue what that guy is on about...

He will now attack you for disagreeing and say "LOL" or "hur dur."

i'm very skeptical of claims pro sports teams employ people to astroturf (especially with regards to niche forums like this one) but you have to wonder when people come out of the woodwork with that kind of energy and enthusiasm for supporting management

 

[sting101]

How is continuing along the same path of insanity being a problem mind boggling to you?

All the teams you mention had multiple draft picks, had/have solid blue lines, and actually rebuilt properly, rebuilds don't take 10 years either, if proper its like 3 years max.

how the hell can you rebuild in 3yrs. your oldest core player is then 21?

i think your talking retool

 

[JohnHodgson]

colorado also had kadri, nichushkin, burakovsky, lehkonen, toews, byram

tampa also had point, cirelli, palat, gourde, killorn, sergachev and killorn

st louis also had perron, schenn, schwartz, dunn, thomas, parakyo and bouwmeester

washington also had oshie, eller, orlov, wilson and burakovsky

I'm not talking about supporting players.

I'm talking about core players.

That's why I said we just need to build around our core pieces... nobody reads here or what?

 

[credulous]

the point is those 'supporting' players are as good or better than the canucks 'core' players

i'd trade pettersson, hughes, miller and demko for:

cirelli, point, cernak and sergachev OR thomas, schenn, dunn and schwartz right now (although i'd prefer seattle just keep schwartz)

i'd think for a really long time about those four for nichushkin, toews, byram and lehkonen/burakovsky but probably ultimately say no

i wouldn't trade the core for the caps 'next four' but only because they are all old as hell now. if i could get 2018 orlov, oshie, wilson and eller i might consider it

imagine thinking the canucks are even close to a championship calibre team

 

[PuckMunchkin]

More attacking with no substance.


You're literally NO substance and all yapping.

Post-Game Talk: - Canucks def. Blackhawks - 5-2 (Kuzmenko x2, Joshua, Dries, Horvat)

Isn’t this your exact criticism against a full rebuild? I'm not sure if you've been keeping up with my posts but I actually think a full rebuild has a higher chance of building a Cup contending team. I also believe that there is a pathway to building a Cup contending team through a retool but...

forums.hfboards.com

I'm not talking about supporting players.

I'm talking about core players.

That's why I said we just need to build around our core pieces... nobody reads here or what?

Im about to get a warning from mods... But your posts... holy crap.....

@Vector Restrain me!

 

[JohnHodgson]

the point is those 'supporting' players are as good or better than the canucks 'core' players

i'd trade pettersson, hughes, miller and demko for:

cirelli, point, cernak and sergachev OR thomas, schenn, dunn and schwartz right now (although i'd prefer seattle just keep schwartz)

i'd think for a really long time about those four for nichushkin, toews, byram and lehkonen/burakovsky but probably ultimately say no

i wouldn't trade the core for the caps 'next four' but only because they are all old as hell now. if i could get 2018 orlov, oshie, wilson and eller i might consider it

imagine thinking the canucks are even close to a championship calibre team

Nobody on earth thinks the Canucks are close to a championship calibre team.

What are you talking about?

I'm simply saying we have some really good CORE pieces. We need to start building around them in order to be a Cup contender.

Post-Game Talk: - Canucks def. Blackhawks - 5-2 (Kuzmenko x2, Joshua, Dries, Horvat)

Isn’t this your exact criticism against a full rebuild? I'm not sure if you've been keeping up with my posts but I actually think a full rebuild has a higher chance of building a Cup contending team. I also believe that there is a pathway to building a Cup contending team through a retool but...

forums.hfboards.com

Im about to get a warning from mods... But your posts... holy crap.....

@Vector Restrain me!

Yeah don't worry... already reported for harassment.