Player Discussion JT Miller Thread

[sting101]

It will prevent us from re-signing Horvat and Miller can't handle Horvat's #2C duties. If your goal is to compete in the near term, this clearly makes the team worse.

In addition, Miller is the personification of the "give no shit about defense", one-way play that makes this team so bad. He's observably lazy on too many occasions, and if this team has issues with the structure he's near the top of the list.

Why can't he play LW and we keep Horvat?

Why would people prioritize lesser players. Agree Miller is not a Selke candidate but he's a top15 scorer that can play C when needed to and gives another faceoff option.

You dont build a roster from the bottom up?

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Horvat could have been signed before the season started, really thought he would too. It ain't JT that's making it difficult, it's him possibly scoring 40-45 goals, EP's likely raise in the future.

Garland and Boeser could be shed if they want to fit Bo. Miller and Bo also work great together, all the rumours about them having beef is BS. 2 vet players seen as competing for a room because one curses loudly and the other is obligated to do all the smiley Canucks for kids commercials.

Total bromies on the ice. They make a legit 1st line, and you always have the safety net of JT playing C when someone is out.

Look at that Hurbeedooo deal, now that's something to rant about.

 

[mriswith]

I do agree about is it right for us given where we are but what about the actual contract is so bad?

It's hard to trade. Need a team that wants to win right now, but also has the cap space to take his 8M next season and beyond. Not a lot of teams meet that criteria and we'll have to take a dump back. He's had a poor start at ES so it adds to the risk for the buyer and that hurts the relatively small window we have to trade him.

It would help us a lot if he picked back up where he left off last year for a few months.

I don't think it's untradeable but it's a small pool of possible buyers and a pretty narrow window left to backstab him.

 

[nucksflailtogether]

God I hope he gets red hot before the deadline and someone bites.

 

[TruGr1t]

Why can't he play LW and we keep Horvat?

Why would people prioritize lesser players. Agree Miller is not a Selke candidate but he's a top15 scorer that can play C when needed to and gives another faceoff option.

You dont build a roster from the bottom up?

It is about roster building. You cannot just look at Miller and say his contract is "fair" because he scored 99 points and had a career year last year. He is a going concern moving forward, and his play is problematic given the underlying on-ice trends that continue to drag on this roster.

Horvat is a #2C (which we need) who is producing at a relatively comparable offensive rate while bringing a significant amount of other attributes to the table outside of pure offensive production that address a number of holes on the roster.

And we're not keeping Horvat. It's pretty clear at this point, and that's largely because you're paying Miller what you're paying him.

If they planned to play Miller at wing, they should have just traded him.

 

[credulous]

it doesn't matter if miller's contract is 'fair'. you don't win the in the nhl by having a roster full of fair contracts

it's even worse for the canucks because they have a series of disastrously bad contracts (oel, myers, boeser, arguably mikheyev) they need to offset with massively unfair contracts if they want to compete

 

[Bankerguy]

it doesn't matter if miller's contract is 'fair'. you don't win the in the nhl by having a roster full of fair contracts

it's even worse for the canucks because they have a series of disastrously bad contracts (oel, myers, boeser, arguably mikheyev) they need to offset with massively unfair contracts if they want to compete

I really like what Mikheyev has brought to the team. I would argue that he's playing at fair value.
OEL, Myers, Boeser however are poor contracts to varying degree's.

 

[sting101]

It is about roster building. You cannot just look at Miller and say his contract is "fair" because he scored 99 points and had a career year last year. He is a going concern moving forward, and his play is problematic given the underlying on-ice trends that continue to drag on this roster.

Horvat is a #2C (which we need) who is producing at a relatively comparable offensive rate while bringing a significant amount of other attributes to the table outside of pure offensive production that address a number of holes on the roster.

And we're not keeping Horvat. It's pretty clear at this point, and that's largely because you're paying Miller what you're paying him.

If they planned to play Miller at wing, they should have just traded him.

If i (or the organization) was just looking at that we would be paying him a lot more than 8 million

Last year Saravelli was saying 9 million and probably max term. It's funny how people flip flop on these things.

Suddenly Horvat is the defensive 2 way C we need when the last couple years Horvath has been shredded for his lacking defensive acumen? And comparable rate for when 15 games? Horvat is a 63 pts/p82 player while JT has been 87 pts/p82 since Miller came here in 2019. I agree i dont see a huge gap between there importance to the team but in terms of contracts and results/numbers it's not that close. Ideally we keep both and get rid of the dead weight fluff so we can do that AND have money to get a top4 D.

With Horvat signed at 7 million we have 7 million to fill out 2-3 defenseman. Obviously we lose Kuzmenko if we cannot get rid of a big contract but we dont have to lose Horvat. The big issue remains getting a defenseman that i'm sure they want to do in free agency and that requires 2 players from a group of Pearson Boeser Kuzmenko Garland Myers OEL to be moved and we know that wont be easy to do

it doesn't matter if miller's contract is 'fair'. you don't win the in the nhl by having a roster full of fair contracts

it's even worse for the canucks because they have a series of disastrously bad contracts (oel, myers, boeser, arguably mikheyev) they need to offset with massively unfair contracts if they want to compete

You pay your key pieces and then trim the fat in the 2nd and 3rd tiers

"You dont win with fair contracts" is awfully subjective. Did Tampa not just win by paying Kucherov Stamkos and Vasilevski fair contracts?

 

[Bgav]

Just your opinion or can you back it up with any data?

I do agree about is it right for us given where we are but what about the actual contract is so bad?

JT Miller 2022-23 Pace over 82 games

82 Games
48 Goals
77 Points
72 PIMS
-39

On-Ice for

120 Goals For
130!! Goals Against (Highest among forwards since this stat was tracked in 2007)

 

[credulous]

You pay your key pieces and then trim the fat in the 2nd and 3rd tiers

"You dont win with fair contracts" is awfully subjective. Did Tampa not just win by paying Kucherov Stamkos and Vasilevski fair contracts?

they won by paying cernak, point and sergachev way under market

are you really comparing miller to stamkos and kucherov? miller is a complimentary piece

 

[TruGr1t]

If i (or the organization) was just looking at that we would be paying him a lot more than 8 million

Last year Saravelli was saying 9 million and probably max term. It's funny how people flip flop on these things.

Suddenly Horvat is the defensive 2 way C we need when the last couple years Horvath has been shredded for his lacking defensive acumen? And comparable rate for when 15 games? Horvat is a 63 pts/p82 player while JT has been 87 pts/p82 since Miller came here in 2019. I agree i dont see a huge gap between there importance to the team but in terms of contracts and results/numbers it's not that close. Ideally we keep both and get rid of the dead weight fluff so we can do that AND have money to get a top4 D.

With Horvat signed at 7 million we have 7 million to fill out 2-3 defenseman. Obviously we lose Kuzmenko if we cannot get rid of a big contract but we dont have to lose Horvat. The big issue remains getting a defenseman that i'm sure they want to do in free agency and that requires 2 players from a group of Pearson Boeser Kuzmenko Garland Myers OEL to be moved and we know that wont be easy to do

This is really just an empty discussion, though. Everything we've read is that they're making basically no effort to re-sign Horvat, and have probably pissed him off during the process.

Nobody is claiming Horvat is some Sekle-calibre, two-way centre. That doesn't change the fact he's a natural centre who can manage tough minutes while generally generating above-average results against good competition and being very good in the face-off dot.

Considering the build of the team, he's a pretty good fit to slot in as #2C behind Pettersson (a lot better than Miller).

Signing Miller at the expense of Horvat if you think Miller can't play centre permanently is just bad roster building, and also poor asset management.

This is all of course based on the fact you want the team to try to compete near-term. I would prefer you trade them both, but realistically, their goal is probably to try to make the playoffs.

 

[racerjoe]

This is really just an empty discussion, though. Everything we've read is that they're making basically no effort to re-sign Horvat, and have probably pissed him off during the process.

Nobody is claiming Horvat is some Sekle-calibre, two-way centre. That doesn't change the fact he's a natural centre who can manage tough minutes while generally generating above-average results against good competition and being very good in the face-off dot.

Considering the build of the team, he's a pretty good fit to slot in as #2C behind Pettersson (a lot better than Miller).

Signing Miller at the expense of Horvat if you think Miller can't play centre permanently is just bad roster building, and also poor asset management.

This is all of course based on the fact you want the team to try to compete near-term. I would prefer you trade them both, but realistically, their goal is probably to try to make the playoffs.

I wanted to trade miller and retain Horvat, I thought it was the correct move. However if we get some some great return for Horvat I could have my mind changed. The fan proposed deal of Newhook and a first would be very intriguing.

What will also help me decide what was the correct move is what Horvat signs for.

I just think there is still too many factors to know what is the right move and what isn't. There is no question old management (saw we don't want to mention their names) left the team a mess. Lets see how we get out of it.

 

[sting101]

JT Miller 2022-23 Pace over 82 games

82 Games
48 Goals
77 Points
72 PIMS
-39

On-Ice for

120 Goals For
130!! Goals Against (Highest among forwards since this stat was tracked in 2007)

Lol yes let's ignore the 3 yrs he's been here and inject a 15 game sample with arguably some of the worst goaltending and defense surrounding him.

???? Oh well at least he's a 50 goal scorer right?

 

[TruGr1t]

I wanted to trade miller and retain Horvat, I thought it was the correct move. However if we get some some great return for Horvat I could have my mind changed. The fan proposed deal of Newhook and a first would be very intriguing.

What will also help me decide what was the correct move is what Horvat signs for.

I just think there is still too many factors to know what is the right move and what isn't. There is no question old management (saw we don't want to mention their names) left the team a mess. Lets see how we get out of it.

I wouldn't be opposed to something like this, but I doubt management would do it, as it sounds more like a rebuilding move. Replacing Horvat with Newhook right now is a big downgrade for the Canucks (while being the exact reason the Avs would entertain something like this ... to upgrade at #2C).

It would be a smart way to open up some cap room, perhaps have a 2C replacement, and get some draft capital. But that is not exactly how this organization operates because it would also likely make the team immediately worse.

 

[Bgav]

Lol yes let's ignore the 3 yrs he's been here and inject a 15 game sample with arguably some of the worst goaltending and defense surrounding him.

???? Oh well at least he's a 50 goal scorer right?

Doesn’t matter if you score 50 if you’re on the ice for more goals against. You ask for data and now your crying about it lol

Also hilarious how you’re blaming everyone except Miller. Do you watch the games? How many egregious turnovers does he have a game?

 

[Cancuks]

Miller makes Patrik Laine look like a Selke candidate.

 

[sting101]

Doesn’t matter if you score 50 if you’re on the ice for more goals against. You ask for data and now your crying about it lol

Also hilarious how you’re blaming everyone except Miller. Do you watch the games? How many egregious turnovers does he have a game?

The data is flawed. Is Demko the worst starting goalie in the NHL going forward? " Crying" are you 12 or something? Do better or you can just continue to make your argument look bad.

To he fair he's been poor to start this year but he's coming out of it. I'll never consider him a selke guy but not many top15 scorers are.

Not only that Miller is better suited to the wing and with Horvat and Pettersson we can accommodate that.

I watch almost every Canuck game and plenty of others.

 

[racerjoe]

Doesn’t matter if you score 50 if you’re on the ice for more goals against. You ask for data and now your crying about it lol

Also hilarious how you’re blaming everyone except Miller. Do you watch the games? How many egregious turnovers does he have a game?

He isn't complaining about data but about sample size.

So here it is as a Canuck;

GP 219
Goals 84
Assists 149
Points 233
Plus minus +11

 

[arttk]

It is about roster building. You cannot just look at Miller and say his contract is "fair" because he scored 99 points and had a career year last year. He is a going concern moving forward, and his play is problematic given the underlying on-ice trends that continue to drag on this roster.

Horvat is a #2C (which we need) who is producing at a relatively comparable offensive rate while bringing a significant amount of other attributes to the table outside of pure offensive production that address a number of holes on the roster.

And we're not keeping Horvat. It's pretty clear at this point, and that's largely because you're paying Miller what you're paying him.

If they planned to play Miller at wing, they should have just traded him.

Horvat providing significant amount of other attributes is like the biggest overstatement or exaggeration on what Bo provides.

Is he good defensively? No
Is he a good pker? No
Is he a good playmaker that elevates his linemates? No
Sadly he’s a somewhat one dimensional second line center and he’s looking for 7+M and he’s a huge risk to drop off when he starts to slow down. We’ve seen what happens to Bo when his skating is off.

 

[Bgav]

Obviously the idea here is to get better with
The data is flawed. Is Demko the worst starting goalie in the NHL going forward? " Crying" are you 12 or something? Do better or you can just continue to make your argument look bad.

To he fair he's been poor to start this year but he's coming out of it. I'll never consider him a selke guy but not many top15 scorers are.

Not only that Miller is better suited to the wing and with Horvat and Pettersson we can accommodate that.

I watch almost every Canuck game and plenty of others.

How is my argument bad? You literally said you would want Miller out there when protecting a lead, if you watched the games I don’t know what to tell you.

He isn't complaining about data but about sample size.

So here it is as a Canuck;

GP 219
Goals 84
Assists 149
Points 233
Plus minus +11

Post turnovers now. The original argument is wanting Miller out there protecting a lead lmao

 

[Bgav]

If anyone thinks you can be a serious contender while paying Miller 8 mill I’m not sure what to tell you

 

[racerjoe]

How is my argument bad? You literally said you would want Miller out there when protecting a lead, if you watched the games I don’t know what to tell you.


Post turnovers now. The original argument is wanting Miller out there protecting a lead lmao

That is moving the goalposts of my argument, as I was saying you can't use that small a sample size.

But Giveaways is 156
Horvat in slightly less games is 77
Petterson is 96 is last 4 season which is also about 30 less games.

If anyone thinks you can be a serious contender while paying Miller 8 mill I’m not sure what to tell you

I don't think paying one PPG player that much is an issue. I think the rest of the teams make up has a lot more to do with it and I would agree the Canucks do not have the correct makeup.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I don't think paying one PPG player that much is an issue. I think the rest of the teams make up has a lot more to do with it and I would agree the Canucks do not have the correct makeup.

No Canuck makes over $8M and we still have huge cap problems. The cap was managed so poor by the previous regime I'm shocked we haven't had to play a 19-man roster.

 

[racerjoe]

No Canuck makes over $8M and we still have huge cap problems. The cap was managed so poor by the previous regime I'm shocked we haven't had to play a 19-man roster.

Its why people saying before its only just a little over payment, or that is the price of a good 4c that wins face offs! were so wrong. This has been the death by a thousand paper cuts and turned it this;

 

[TruGr1t]

Horvat providing significant amount of other attributes is like the biggest overstatement or exaggeration on what Bo provides.

Is he good defensively? No
Is he a good pker? No
Is he a good playmaker that elevates his linemates? No
Sadly he’s a somewhat one dimensional second line center and he’s looking for 7+M and he’s a huge risk to drop off when he starts to slow down. We’ve seen what happens to Bo when his skating is off.

How about, he can play centre and doesn't make $8M AAV, That work? I cannot fathom for the life of me, someone proposing we gut our centre depth for any reason outside of an outright rebuild.