Prospect Info: Joshua Roy Part 2

[CHwest]

It's still real to you dammit!

In an altered universe, lol Guy is in his own world.

 

[jrom]

Who came up with this ridiculous "Wawa" nickname? I had to read through to understand what the heck you guys saying "Wawa" were meaning. The guy has a THREE letter last name, and that nickname is awful.

it started with this play-by-play

 

[Adam Michaels]

it started with this play-by-play

I don't hear Wawa at all. I hear Joshwa as in Josh Roy.

 

[Naslundforever]

"The decision was made to go all-in with Carey Price"

Yeah that's why Bergevin never acquired a topC or traded any 1st round pick (instead drafted bust after bust)... because he went "all-in". That's also why after losing Radulov and Markov he sat on his hands and didn't use cap space until a once in a century pandemic gripped the planet.

Getting rid of every competent left handed defenseman in the org was quite the sabotage. That and fat, long contracts to old / average / injured players was a slow-motion train wreck into a volcano capped with a meteorite.

ooops Roy thead. Couple of years of work on his legs and this guy looks like a gem (I only watch replays).

 

[Treb]

Let's go back to Joshua Roy, thank you.

 

[Treb]

 

[David Suzuki]

I don't hear Wawa at all. I hear Joshwa as in Josh Roy.

He's very clearly saying Josh Roy lol

 

[yianik]

Roy signed his ELC and he gets a signing bonus of $92 500 if he plays pro, but $10500 if he plays juniors in 2022-2023. I am wondering when that $10500 gets paid. Sounds as if it would be after the season starts in 2022-23.

I am wondering because I dont know what his family finances are like of course, but it would be great if he could hire a skating coach to help him improve that aspect of his game.

 

[dcyhabs]

It's all relative to the player though. I'm not saying Roy should play here .. but if he earns the 9 games, he earns it. And then whatever happens happens. If he doesn't earn it by exceeding expectations, he goes back to junior.

Some players do better rushed, some players do better with a medium build, some players do better with the slow burn.

We didn't really have the option for slow burn in prior years though. Our development setup and our AHL coaching was a joke. So it was either rush or be sent back to juniors forever. Hopefully with this new found care for development, we see options available and only "rush" the players who earn it and we can't possibly send back.

Can you point to someone who benefited by being rushed? It's not easy to do, I think. Crosby and Gretzky and so on were going to succeed however they were developed. There aren't that many players who started in the league at 18 or 19, and fewer who did well. I'm trying to think of someone who could be said to have spent so much time in juniors or the AHL that it did them harm.

A bunch of top picks like Hughes and Stamkos had sort of meh first years in the NHL, but were never in real danger of having their development sacrificed for team wins. I really don't know if this helps them more than playing junior or NCAA.

Sure, if the guy can thrive, as opposed to survive, and the coach won't bench him for expected rookie errors, and someone will work with him on expected rookie errors, then, fine, try him in the NHL. The 1OA pick this year may be ready to benefit from NHL time, in spite of contract considerations, but I don't se Roy being ready. It's rough that the other option is junior, but unless he scores at will at camp I don't see keeping him in the NHL.

 

[viceroy]

It's gonna be really weird when this problem goes away on a large scale with competent people in place.

Marty Lapointe's still here and I don't care for Lecavalier's presence either. Vinny never gave off smart guy vibes.

Bergevins fatal flaw was his loyalty to Timmins. Timmins was brutal.

Nope. I still believe TT is an above average scout. Bergevin's greatest mistake was keeping Sylvain Lefebvre. That guy was a blight on our organization. I'm still angry that MB and Timmins left him in there for like over half a decade ruining our prospects. Player Development was treated as an afterthought by the previous organization while it is an essential component of any successful sports team.

If Roy can be competitive, gets minutes, and is allowed to make mistakes, I've got absolutely no problem with him learning to play an NHL game in the NHL. He's got nothing to learn offensively in the Q and I don't think he's going to learn to play elite defence there either.

Okay listen up. THE NHL IS NOT A DEVELOPMENTAL LEAGUE. Roy still has warts to his game. Send him back to the Q and tell him to polish his game. Or send him to the NLA whatever.

Imagine if we keep him. He gets 5pts in 9 games and the local media start feting him. Now we have to keep him. He's still a bit small and gets pushed around by NHL'ers. He's a liability in the D-Zone and we have to shelter his minutes. He gets pulled out of the lineup against bigger teams. Kid starts to lose confidence.

Sound familiar?

But what if he can improve at the NHL level under MSL.

A scorer can become a better scorer over the years in the NHL. He gains physical maturity, learns what he can do in the league. Starts to know the goalies and gets better teammates.

What they rarely do is become better rounded players. Because THE NHL IS NOT A DEVELOPMENTAL LEAGUE. The CHL and the NCAA are. Let them learn their craft there.

It’s a short tourney and they couldn’t get it going. I won’t hold that against a prospect. But if they show a lot like Lambert did I’ll definitely take note of it.

Like Kotkaniemi? He did great in the World Juniors right? Worked out great for us Habs.

 

[Sorinth]

Can you point to someone who benefited by being rushed? It's not easy to do, I think. Crosby and Gretzky and so on were going to succeed however they were developed. There aren't that many players who started in the league at 18 or 19, and fewer who did well. I'm trying to think of someone who could be said to have spent so much time in juniors or the AHL that it did them harm.

A bunch of top picks like Hughes and Stamkos had sort of meh first years in the NHL, but were never in real danger of having their development sacrificed for team wins. I really don't know if this helps them more than playing junior or NCAA.

Sure, if the guy can thrive, as opposed to survive, and the coach won't bench him for expected rookie errors, and someone will work with him on expected rookie errors, then, fine, try him in the NHL. The 1OA pick this year may be ready to benefit from NHL time, in spite of contract considerations, but I don't se Roy being ready. It's rough that the other option is junior, but unless he scores at will at camp I don't see keeping him in the NHL.

How about Patrice Beregeron, 2nd round pick never dominated the Q offensively, and played in the NHL at 19 I think. Lucic was another Bruins 2nd round pick who came in at 19 without really dominating the CHL and went on to have a pretty good career.

But I'm also kind of reminded of Latendresse's camp after being drafted. The guy was amazing and looked like he belonged in the NHL, we sent him back down which was a huge let down for him and it showed in his play and he was accused of sulking, and there was a strong case of him not learning anything useful that year in the Q because he could use his size/strength/skill to dominate junior players in a way that he wouldn't be able to do in the NHL.

It's easy to say guys still have things to work on and so should be sent back, but when you have guys who are dominant it's often tough for them to learn the right things because they can produce more by relying on overwhelming skill that works great at junior level but will fail in the NHL. So you don't want them going back and reinforcing those junior level habits as that just makes it harder to transition to the NHL where they need pro-habits.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Marty Lapointe's still here and I don't care for Lecavalier's presence either. Vinny never gave off smart guy vibes.



Nope. I still believe TT is an above average scout. Bergevin's greatest mistake was keeping Sylvain Lefebvre. That guy was a blight on our organization. I'm still angry that MB and Timmins left him in there for like over half a decade ruining our prospects. Player Development was treated as an afterthought by the previous organization while it is an essential component of any successful sports team.



Okay listen up. THE NHL IS NOT A DEVELOPMENTAL LEAGUE. Roy still has warts to his game. Send him back to the Q and tell him to polish his game. Or send him to the NLA whatever.

Imagine if we keep him. He gets 5pts in 9 games and the local media start feting him. Now we have to keep him. He's still a bit small and gets pushed around by NHL'ers. He's a liability in the D-Zone and we have to shelter his minutes. He gets pulled out of the lineup against bigger teams. Kid starts to lose confidence.

Sound familiar?



A scorer can become a better scorer over the years in the NHL. He gains physical maturity, learns what he can do in the league. Starts to know the goalies and gets better teammates.

What they rarely do is become better rounded players. Because THE NHL IS NOT A DEVELOPMENTAL LEAGUE. The CHL and the NCAA are. Let them learn their craft there.



Like Kotkaniemi? He did great in the World Juniors right? Worked out great for us Habs.

What makes you think TT was an above average scout?

 

[Tyson]

If Roy gets eliminated today what will happen with him? Does he go to Laval like Kidney did?
You have to think he could see some AHL playoff action.

 

[WeThreeKings]

If Roy gets eliminated today what will happen with him? Does he go to Laval like Kidney did?
You have to think he could see some AHL playoff action.

I would imagine as long as he wants to, he'll be there. Doubt, like Kidney, he would play.

 

[MXD]

How about Patrice Beregeron, 2nd round pick never dominated the Q offensively, and played in the NHL at 19 I think. Lucic was another Bruins 2nd round pick who came in at 19 without really dominating the CHL and went on to have a pretty good career.

But I'm also kind of reminded of Latendresse's camp after being drafted. The guy was amazing and looked like he belonged in the NHL, we sent him back down which was a huge let down for him and it showed in his play and he was accused of sulking, and there was a strong case of him not learning anything useful that year in the Q because he could use his size/strength/skill to dominate junior players in a way that he wouldn't be able to do in the NHL.

It's easy to say guys still have things to work on and so should be sent back, but when you have guys who are dominant it's often tough for them to learn the right things because they can produce more by relying on overwhelming skill that works great at junior level but will fail in the NHL. So you don't want them going back and reinforcing those junior level habits as that just makes it harder to transition to the NHL where they need pro-habits.

Bergeron was already super well rounded with no flaws in his game. Lucic was kinda used as a specialist because he could be used as such.

Roy isn't super well rounded. Nothing wrong with this, that's just not who is. If he was, he have been picked earlier, tubbyness and all. He can't exactly be asked to play like Lucic because he isn't 6'3 220 pounds.

 

[jfm133]

HuGo will benefit a lot from the good youth they inherited from Bergevin and Timmins. I already see what guys like you will say, it will be that these young players ended up good because of how great the "development" under HuGo is compared to the Bergevin era. Obviously, this will be false. I gave the draft comparison between 2008-2011 and 2018-2021. Again, it's night and day, and HuGo will look great mainly because of that, also, if they don't mess up the first overall pick this year and the three other first round picks they have this year and next year..

It appears to me there's still some residual protection mechanisms that people have told themselves for 10 years rather than acknowledge just how bad Bergevin is.

I think those falsehoods will get pulled back layer by layer the longer this management group is around. Does this mean they won't make bad trades, select the wrong player, get the wrong coach? No, it doesn't mean that. But HuGo doing the bare minimum will make such a huge impact.

Bergevin had infinite resources and allure to modernize the franchise and instead hired his buddies and thought nothing of analytics and development. Simply staffing the team and hiring the appropriate amount of resources will do wonders.

 

[Wateredgarden]

Roy signed his ELC and he gets a signing bonus of $92 500 if he plays pro, but $10500 if he plays juniors in 2022-2023. I am wondering when that $10500 gets paid. Sounds as if it would be after the season starts in 2022-23.

I am wondering because I dont know what his family finances are like of course, but it would be great if he could hire a skating coach to help him improve that aspect of his game.

Dude when are drafted by the Habs and dominating the Q, banks are calling you to lend you money, believe me he's got all the money ready to if he needs to.

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

idk why you guys talking about money lol hes one of our most promising prospects Habs will give him all the tools/personels he needs to keep growing

 

[Sorinth]

Bergeron was already super well rounded with no flaws in his game. Lucic was kinda used as a specialist because he could be used as such.

Roy isn't super well rounded. Nothing wrong with this, that's just not who is. If he was, he have been picked earlier, tubbyness and all. He can't exactly be asked to play like Lucic because he isn't 6'3 220 pounds.

That's mostly irrelevant to the question the OP asked. As for Roy, he could easily be a specialist as well, not all specialists are grinders.

But the main point is that we do have to consider how getting sent down will impact Roy, assuming at training camp he's showing he belongs. Not only can it be difficult mentally (Especially when my merits you earned it), but there's the risk of basically wasting the year not really learning anything because you rely on junior level plays that won't work in the pros. Drouin is an example, of how going back when you are already dominant might not really help, and arguably just reinforces non-pro habits making them harder to break/change.

Players need to be challenged to continue to develop, and it kinda looks like the Q doesn't really challenge Roy sufficiently. If he's not good enough for the NHL, then maybe a year in Europe would be the best route. Though I'm also partial to off the board ideas like Roy going back to the Q with the understanding that he'll be used as a Defenceman, as that would provide a challenge and plenty of learning opportunities.

 

[Heffyhoof]

I really like Roy as a prospect, probably my third favourite at the moment, but why all the talk about rushing him again? This is literally the exact same song and dance that happens every time Montreal has an exciting forward prospect.

Granted I'd like some measure of change so D+2 players can go to the AHL more easily. That said, a second year in their respective junior leagues certainly didn't hurt Suzuki/Caufield and I'd contend it plays a large part in why they are both starting to excel. Let Roy have a 2nd year like both of them did and I'm sure everyone will be well pleased with the result of waiting.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I really like Roy as a prospect, probably my third favourite at the moment, but why all the talk about rushing him again? This is literally the exact same song and dance that happens every time Montreal has an exciting forward prospect.

Granted I'd like some measure of change so D+2 players can go to the AHL more easily. That said, a second year in their respective junior leagues certainly didn't hurt Suzuki Caufield and I'd contend it plays a large part in why they are both starting to excel. Let Roy have a 2nd year like both of them did and I'm sure everyone will be well pleased with the result of waiting.

It's really just a lack of patience - everyone is instant gratification these days.

They see Roy doing well and they need him in the NHL right away! But as much as I am pro not rushing, and pro development, I think the other side of "send him to the Q no matter what!" is misguided as well.

You can't have a blanket approach where it doesn't matter how good someone is in camp, they can't make it because they have junior or AHL eligibility. You let the training camp decide and then have to understand, if they make the team - they need to keep up a consistent level of play and be trusted with a certain allocation of duties, ice time and opportunity.

If either of those dip, then you put the player back in juniors or AHL (whichever option is present) and they have a better idea of what to work on. Communication is key and any prospect who can't handle being sent down with explicit instructions for improvement will have careers like Drouin.

 

[MXD]

Players need to be challenged to continue to develop, and it kinda looks like the Q doesn't really challenge Roy sufficiently. If he's not good enough for the NHL, then maybe a year in Europe would be the best route. Though I'm also partial to off the board ideas like Roy going back to the Q with the understanding that he'll be used as a Defenceman, as that would provide a challenge and plenty of learning opportunities.

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but a junior-aged Canadian player with a valid CHL contract can't simply elect to go play pro hockey in Europe (and lets not entertain the possibility of going to play junior hockey in Europe, caliber is worse).

The very, very Roy-like Tyler Toffoli was in this exact same situation in 10-11 : he led the OHL in scoring during his D+1 (5th PPG for complete seasons players). He was sent back to the OHL, where he.... finished 2nd in scoring on his D+2 (less games than 1st scorer; 3rd PPG for complete seasons).

Toffoli turned out just fine and became pretty much his upside (...and no, he didn't have the tools to be more than he is).

For the record, I absolutely don't think Roy absolutely has to go back to the Q.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The player has to take a fair chunk of the blame. His own father is coaching at the highest level in Finland. Do you think he does not know about his son's shortcomings and never told him to work on it ? Same for the Habs org. They told him to fix things. He never listened.

And you know this… how?

 

[dcyhabs]

Bergeron was already super well rounded with no flaws in his game. Lucic was kinda used as a specialist because he could be used as such.

Roy isn't super well rounded. Nothing wrong with this, that's just not who is. If he was, he have been picked earlier, tubbyness and all. He can't exactly be asked to play like Lucic because he isn't 6'3 220 pounds.

That's often listed as a risk of bringing guys up early, they can play a specialty, PP, offense, defense, goon, whatever, but they don't get a chance to learn more. Roy could probably play as a sheltered pp/offense guy pretty soon, maybe, but it's going to take a while before he is a complete player. Wright is similar to Bergeron, he's well rounded and he's a higher pick, the team will take care of him, Roy has more to work out and is a lower pick.

I think this is a good opportunity for the organization to develop a prospect properly, and have ex-agent Hughes explain that it's not a negative on the player. Roy should definitely play junior and the team should give him a list of stuff to work on.

 

[Sorinth]

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but a junior-aged Canadian player with a valid CHL contract can't simply elect to go play pro hockey in Europe (and lets not entertain the possibility of going to play junior hockey in Europe, caliber is worse).

The very, very Roy-like Tyler Toffoli was in this exact same situation in 10-11 : he led the OHL in scoring during his D+1 (5th PPG for complete seasons players). He was sent back to the OHL, where he.... finished 2nd in scoring on his D+2 (less games than 1st scorer; 3rd PPG for complete seasons).

Toffoli turned out just fine and became pretty much his upside (...and no, he didn't have the tools to be more than he is).

For the record, I absolutely don't think Roy absolutely has to go back to the Q.

I'm not 100% sure on the rules about CHL players going to Europe, I believe the rule is between the NHL and CHL where if the player doesn't make the NHL team they have to be assigned to the CHL. But the NHL team isn't assigning the player to Europe so it's not the same thing.