Prospect Info: Joshua Roy Part 2

[FF de Mars]

It could happen, but I would never bet anything on it.

I wouldn't even bet on Roy being an NHLer at all, let alone a better one than KK.

I agree. I don't know the future, maybe KK didn't have a long enough offseason to train properly? That's a valid excuse. Maybe both flop. That said yes I'm betting Roy has a better career. He's been fairly impressive this season, he has a lot of momentum moving his way.

 

[Sorinth]

Kotkaniemi was definitely rushed. Also the people who want Wright in the nhl are saying that he should play on the 3rd line with 2nd pp unit, which is exactly what Kotkaniemi got.

And Kotkaniemi did very well his rookie year (Same with Galchenyuk), it was the following years where we never expanded on their responsibilities which caused them both problems. The fact that they played well and then didn't get rewarded for it is what caused them both to have confidence issues which in turn led to worse on ice play.

It's fine for Wright to come in and be 3rd line center with PP time as a rookie, but if he does well then you can't just leave him there on the 3rd line because that will kill his confidence which hurts his on ice play and becomes a self-fulling prophecy.

Also the coaches shouldn't disparage their young center to the media which happened to both Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi. Use the media to pump their confidence when the inevitable cold streaks happen don't go out and say they hit a wall and isn't playing well, or worse lie about what a player requested.

And this same holds true for Roy, for him to earn a spot it's not just a question of being good enough at camp/preseason, it's are you ready to commit to his development, are you willing to play him even when he's struggling. And that's even more important if we surprise and become a bubble team, are we willing to lose games and possibly a spot in the playoffs for the long term growth of these young guys. If the answer is no, then send them back to juniors (Though for Wright it isn't quite that simple).

 

[FF de Mars]

And Kotkaniemi did very well his rookie year (Same with Galchenyuk), it was the following years where we never expanded on their responsibilities which caused them both problems. The fact that they played well and then didn't get rewarded for it is what caused them both to have confidence issues which in turn led to worse on ice play.

It's fine for Wright to come in and be 3rd line center with PP time as a rookie, but if he does well then you can't just leave him there on the 3rd line because that will kill his confidence which hurts his on ice play and becomes a self-fulling prophecy.

Also the coaches shouldn't disparage their young center to the media which happened to both Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi. Use the media to pump their confidence when the inevitable cold streaks happen don't go out and say they hit a wall and isn't playing well, or worse lie about what a player requested.

And this same holds true for Roy, for him to earn a spot it's not just a question of being good enough at camp/preseason, it's are you ready to commit to his development, are you willing to play him even when he's struggling. And that's even more important if we surprise and become a bubble team, are we willing to lose games and possibly a spot in the playoffs for the long term growth of these young guys. If the answer is no, then send them back to juniors (Though for Wright it isn't quite that simple).

You make it sound like KK is a victim. What about personal responsability? Joe Thornton started from the bottom of the line up of the Bruins at 18 too, yet managed to rise to the top, so did Suzuki right under KK's nose, they didn't whine that management was unfair but put up the work. It's easy to blame management, but in reality the players hold their destiny in their own hands, it's up to them to prove they deserve a place in the top 6, it's up to them to train hard in the offseason, it's up to them to produce, it's up to them if they make it!

 

[Andrei79]

Making references to 3OA and lower guys does not deal with the 1OA situation.

If Shane Wright is the 1OA this year and is not going to play in the NHL in his D+1, then he probably should not be the 1OA.

So Makar, for example, wouldn't have deserved to be 1st OA ?

 

[Sorinth]

You make it sound like KK is a victim. What about personal responsability? Joe Thornton started from the bottom of the line up of the Bruins at 18 too, yet managed to rise to the top, so did Suzuki right under KK's nose, they didn't whine that management was unfair but put up the work. It's easy to blame management, but in reality the players hold their destiny in their own hands, it's up to them to prove they deserve a place in the top 6, it's up to them to train hard in the offseason, it's up to them to produce, it's up to them!

The player obviously has a lot of responsibility as well but that doesn't mean the coach/environment doesn't matter. Just look at Caufield, without a coaching change he would likely be another 1st round bust and you'd be here saying he was too small, not talented enough, etc... and it's bad drafting from Timmins again and has nothing to do with coaching/development because if he had it in him he would have overcome Ducharme.

Here's an example for Galchenyuk as a rookie. He plays 3rd line C from games 2 to 15 puts up 9 points and is a +8 in those 14 games. Yet Therrien comes out and says Galchenyuk isn't good enough to play center in the NHL and moves him to wing. So this talk about earning it is more often then not BS because coaches basically never run a meriotocracy, and you can be doing everything right and still get shafted which is very challenging mentally. And as we saw with Caufield, when things are challenging mentally they can make a huge difference in your level of play.

 

[dcyhabs]

Making references to 3OA and lower guys does not deal with the 1OA situation.

If Shane Wright is the 1OA this year and is not going to play in the NHL in his D+1, then he probably should not be the 1OA.

There may be no player who should play in the NHL this year. Last year's top pick did not.

 

[dcyhabs]

Stop with that nonsense, throwing insults at Bergevin, Timmins and others on an anonymous board won't elevate you. Also, to call another person incompetent, you need to be be much better than that person. Hughes is in his first job in hockey other than agent. As for Gorton, his stint with the Rangers with picks like Anderson, Kravtsov,, Kakko and Lafrenière in the top-10 is not better than Bergevin, and Bergevin never had a #1 and a #2 overall.

Also, you can say what you want, but the draft since 2016 is good, and the strategy of pick accumulation since 2018, year after year, is the reason why the pipeline of the team is among the best in the league. Bergevin is the one who made the trade for Suzuki. The main problem of this organization, either with Bergevin or Gainey, is the lack of patience. That led them to shortcuts attempts and their biggest mistakes. If Molson still pushes to make the playoffs every year, Hughes and Gorton will have to trade good young assets for older players. In other words, if they are not allowed to be patient, we will see other stupid attempts like the Aho hostile offer and bringing up 18 yo like KK

The 3 best young players on the team. Suzuki, Caufield and Romanov made it to the NHL only at 20. This should be the rule for every player from now on, unless a player is really dominant in all aspects of the game at a lower level, not just if he got very good stats.

Sorry to be the millionth person to tell you but Bergevin was not a good GM. He made a few good moves and many, many bad ones. He probably wasn’t the worst in the league, but he was bottom 10 and probably bottom 5. He had a relatively easy job coming in and he bobbled it up and down culminating in a cup run and an embarrassingly destroyed team.

The cup run was a lot of fun but it was the peak of everything he did and it wasn’t good enough. He should have added the one or two players he needed 10 years ago instead of treading water and then sinking.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

And Kotkaniemi did very well his rookie year (Same with Galchenyuk), it was the following years where we never expanded on their responsibilities which caused them both problems. The fact that they played well and then didn't get rewarded for it is what caused them both to have confidence issues which in turn led to worse on ice play.

That's not true. The reason Kotkaniemi's role did not get bigger in his 2nd season is because he sucked and looked much worse than in his rookie year.
Suzuki started as a 4th line winger in that very same season and ended up the number 1 C halfway in the year. That alone completely refutes that argument you just made.

 

[Sorinth]

That's not true. The reason Kotkaniemi's role did not get bigger in his 2nd season is because he sucked and looked much worse than in his rookie year.
Suzuki started as a 4th line winger in that very same season and ended up the number 1 C halfway in the year. That alone completely refutes that argument you just made.

It's actually more evidence of my point, Kotkaniemi dominated his opposition for 79 games his rookie year and it earned him nothing, in fact 1st game of the next season (Where he even scored a goal) his ice time was down from his rookie year. Suzuki playing well for a dozen games and being put into the top-6 is just proof that it's not about earning it, if the coach likes you then they give you opportunities if they don't then they don't.

We saw it with Domi as well, he puts up 72 points, and it earned him nothing, he was on the 4th line game 3 of the next season. First Habs player to crack 70 points in something like a decade and it earned him 0 grace with the coaching staff. Compare that to Desharnais getting 1 point in 19 games and still being fed top line minutes alongside Pacioretty all because he managed 60 points once.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

It's actually more evidence of my point, Kotkaniemi dominated his opposition for 79 games his rookie year and it earned him nothing, in fact 1st game of the next season (Where he even scored a goal) his ice time was down from his rookie year. Suzuki playing well for a dozen games and being put into the top-6 is just proof that it's not about earning it, if the coach likes you then they give you opportunities if they don't then they don't.

We saw it with Domi as well, he puts up 72 points, and it earned him nothing, he was on the 4th line game 3 of the next season. First Habs player to crack 70 points in something like a decade and it earned him 0 grace with the coaching staff. Compare that to Desharnais getting 1 point in 19 games and still being fed top line minutes alongside Pacioretty all because he managed 60 points once.

Kotkaniemi definitely did not dominate his opposition for 79 games in his rookie year. In fact, he was bad in the last stretch. He had 0 goals and 2 assists in the last 14 games.

The next season, he started with 3 pts in 17 games. He clearly did not earn a promotion with how he ended his rookie season and how he started his sophomore year.

 

[McGees]

Came here for the Roy thread…
*reads post after post about KK

 

[morhilane]

There may be no player who should play in the NHL this year. Last year's top pick did not.

Last year's top pick decided not too, it wasn't the Sabres who sent him back to the NCAA.

 

[dcyhabs]

That's not true. The reason Kotkaniemi's role did not get bigger in his 2nd season is because he sucked and looked much worse than in his rookie year.
Suzuki started as a 4th line winger in that very same season and ended up the number 1 C halfway in the year. That alone completely refutes that argument you just made.

Kotkaniemi could take sheltered minutes in his 18 year old season, but he didn’t learn or improve to be able to play less sheltered minutes.

Suzuki was older and better developed just as KK would have been if he’s spent 3 years in a lower league working on his weaknesses. Suzuki was focused, and Kotkaniemi might not have been able to improve as much, but no question he eould have been a more complete player. He wouldn’t have been available for an offer sheet as soon, either.

A lot if the problem is bad coaching, yet another reason to keep young players off the NHL team pre-MSL.

Last year's top pick decided not too, it wasn't the Sabres who sent him back to the NCAA.

And his career will likely be better for it.

 

[dcyhabs]

Came here for the Roy thread…
*reads post after post about KK

View attachment 553424Don’t repeat mistakes. I suppose Roy already can’t be called up to be destroyed by a dinosaur coach, but he has lots of stuff to work on in his game, and lots of growing to do that will go better in a lower league.

 

[DAChampion]

Why not just send Wright and Roy to Europe for a year?

Either way I hope that they get to play in the WJCs, unlike with Bergevin who didn't allow it.

 

[BLONG7]

Stop with that nonsense, throwing insults at Bergevin, Timmins and others on an anonymous board won't elevate you. Also, to call another person incompetent, you need to be be much better than that person. Hughes is in his first job in hockey other than agent. As for Gorton, his stint with the Rangers with picks like Anderson, Kravtsov,, Kakko and Lafrenière in the top-10 is not better than Bergevin, and Bergevin never had a #1 and a #2 overall.

Also, you can say what you want, but the draft since 2016 is good, and the strategy of pick accumulation since 2018, year after year, is the reason why the pipeline of the team is among the best in the league. Bergevin is the one who made the trade for Suzuki. The main problem of this organization, either with Bergevin or Gainey, is the lack of patience. That led them to shortcuts attempts and their biggest mistakes. If Molson still pushes to make the playoffs every year, Hughes and Gorton will have to trade good young assets for older players. In other words, if they are not allowed to be patient, we will see other stupid attempts like the Aho hostile offer and bringing up 18 yo like KK

The 3 best young players on the team. Suzuki, Caufield and Romanov made it to the NHL only at 20. This should be the rule for every player from now on, unless a player is really dominant in all aspects of the game at a lower level, not just if he got very good stats.

assuming you are related to the clown GM?
All jokes aside, MB made the terrible decision each and every to move goalposts, rinse and repeat.....he did not build through the draft as he said he would, and doubled down on his poor decision making....
Hughes on the job 1-2 months, and got us TWO first round picks..........Bergevin never got us one in 10 years via a trade.

 

[Gustave]

Why not just send Wright and Roy to Europe for a year?

Either way I hope that they get to play in the WJCs, unlike with Bergevin who didn't allow it.

Can we even do that?

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

The WJC is very overrated for development. Suzuki and Caufield both sucked and they’re literally the core we’re now building around.

 

[26Mats]

The WJC is very overrated for development. Suzuki and Caufield both sucked and they’re literally the core we’re now building around.

And Drouin went point per game. What more evidence do you need.

 

[Wateredgarden]

His skating was definitely not ready and he should have played another season or two in europe improving that part of his game. Funny enough, he never did improve his skating. He's still bambi on skates and to me that's probably the Habs player development team's fault. They should have been all over him trying to improve his skating.

He had three off seasons to improve his skating and he's still falling all over the ice, I just think he's the opposite of Suzuki in body composition, he has pretty weak legs and very strong upper body, that's why he's weak on his skate but can still push people around.

 

[jfm133]

You seriously think Bergevin would have been unable of making those trades? Also, I will say it again, but the main problem under Bergevin was Carey Price. When Bergevin came in, the decision was made to go all in with Price and to try shortcuts to win with him because the pipeline was empty due to a lack of picks between 2008-2011. Hughes and Gorton inherited to total opposite, a pipeline full of very good prospects.

Between 2008 and 2011, the four years preceding Bergevin, the Habs picked 25 players and 7 in the first 3 rounds.

Between, 2018 and 2021, the four years preceding HuGo, the Habs picked 38 players and 17 in the first 3 rounds.

That's night and day. 2008-2011 yielded Gallagher and Beaulieu. 2018-2021 already yielded Kotkaniemi, Romanov, Caufield, with Ylonen and Harris that are close to the NHL and many other very promising prospects in the pipeline. Add to that the fact that between 2008 and 2011, Gainey traded away McDonagh, while Bergevin, between 2018 and 2021, did the opposite, he acquired the best player on the team, Suzuki.

The reality, is that Bergevin in the last 5 years built through the draft, he will just not be there to see the result. He did that while still trying shortcuts to win with Price, trade for Andrew Shaw is a good example, and the stupid hostile offer to Aho is another.

When you give 10.5 M$ per year for 8 years to Price, with Molson's approval, you need to be logic and try to win with this guy. They came close last year, but now this window is closed. So maybe Hugo will be allowed by Molson to be patients and accept two more years of pain, but I doubt it. I will be happy if I am wrong and if the stick to a plan to really wait for their youth to mature and make the team a winner. But Molson is still there, and I fear that as soon as the medias will complain, he will push HuGo into shortcuts attempts.

Finally, I agree that Bergevin nedded to go, 10 years as GM in Montréal is a very long time. Towards the end he made some awful contract decisions with Gallagher and Armia, also letting Danault go because he prefered Gallagher. It was an enormous error of evaluation. But again, he finally commited to the draft with many picks in excess in rounds 2 and 3. That being said, HuGo traded players signed by Bergevin with good contracts, Toffoli, Chiarot. Lehkonen was the best pick of the 2nd round in 2013. Also, he acquired Edmundson for 5th round pick and signed him to a good contract.

The first test for HuGo will be if the pick Wright 1st overall and send him back in the OHL next season. If they do so, same with Joshua Roy, it will be a good sign. They also need to stop the silliness with Mailloux and invite him to rookies camp and training camp and they need to make a stand for the kid by saying the organization now looks forward with him and make it claer that this chapter is closed.

assuming you are related to the clown GM?
All jokes aside, MB made the terrible decision each and every to move goalposts, rinse and repeat.....he did not build through the draft as he said he would, and doubled down on his poor decision making....
Hughes on the job 1-2 months, and got us TWO first round picks..........Bergevin never got us one in 10 years via a trade.

 

[HuGort]

Roy has good camp give him 9 games. He should be ultimate fit with Suzuki and Caufield. Way he is playing in playoffs, waste of year to leave in junior next year.

 

[jfm133]

Roy won't make the difference with the Habs next season, same for Wright, or even both of them on the team, so all is in favor of letting them mature one more year. Also, it would be a very good thing on the cap management aspect. Why burn a year of their ELC when it's not needed? The cap aspect is not the most important, but it would be an added value for the team on the longer term. Remember there will be cap cleaning to do down the road with Gallagher and Armia.

 

[KevSkillz4]

Roy has good camp give him 9 games. He should be ultimate fit with Suzuki and Caufield. Way he is playing in playoffs, waste of year to leave in junior next year.

100% agree witht that... Roy is a amazing playmaker and play with 2 good goalscorer like Suzuki and Caufield, that potentially to become a pretty good 1st line. I would try that for 9 games IMO.

 

[Sorinth]

Kotkaniemi definitely did not dominate his opposition for 79 games in his rookie year. In fact, he was bad in the last stretch. He had 0 goals and 2 assists in the last 14 games.

The next season, he started with 3 pts in 17 games. He clearly did not earn a promotion with how he ended his rookie season and how he started his sophomore year.

He had a SAT% of 57.2% and a GF% of 54.4%, go back and read any article from that time and it was universal praise for a guy who did great at both ends of the rink. His reward was to have his ice time cut.

But anyways this getting quite off topic, and your focus on Kotkaniemi and not any of the other examples I provided tell me all I need to know about your opinion.

For Roy, if he's going to make the team it's not enough to just play well, we have to be willing to commit to his development which more often then not comes at the expense of veterans and sometimes even wins. We have to be willing to make room for him when there's logjam just like we made room for Plekanec to grow into a top-six role even though we had two top-6 Cs already (The issue was the return we got, not the decision to move Ribeiro).