Prospect Info: Joshua Roy Part 2

[Junohockeyfan]

Kotkaniemi was definitely rushed. Also the people who want Wright in the nhl are saying that he should play on the 3rd line with 2nd pp unit, which is exactly what Kotkaniemi got.

Wright should be getting 15mins / game in NHL otherwise he should be in junior. I am ok with a top-end draft pick playing in the NHL in D+1 so long as he is ready and gets icetime. I think KK was rushed and didn't get the ice-time he needed, partly because the Habs were trying to compete and relegated him in close games.

 

[Tyson]

Roy has impressive skills and could very well be a draft day steal but he has to improve his speed, quickness and strength, keep him in junior.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

His fatal flaw was employing brain dead coaches who didn't believe in development, having two people run the development department for the entire team and putting the onus on teenagers to figure out what to develop, how to develop it and who to help them develop it.

Correctamundo

 

[Wateredgarden]

Roy has impressive skills and could very well be a draft day steal but he has to improve his speed, quickness and strength, keep him in junior.

Strength is not a problem for him, he goes wherever he wants on the ice, but all young players have to improve strength in the begining of their career.

 

[Tyson]

Strength is not a problem for him, he goes wherever he wants on the ice, but all young players have to improve strength in the begining of their career.

Agreed, 18 year old strength isn't quite man strength but he will be there soon.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Roy has impressive skills and could very well be a draft day steal but he has to improve his speed, quickness and strength, keep him in junior.

Very skilled and a great shot to go with a high offensive hockey IQ. He knows where to go create offense or score goals. He's also got some good hands. For a winger he needs to play at a faster pace. Speed is his achiles heel at the moment. If he can improve on that he will be really dangerous.

He reminds me of Toffoli the way he plays the game.

 

[1909]

Wright should be getting 15mins / game in NHL otherwise he should be in junior. I am ok with a top-end draft pick playing in the NHL in D+1 so long as he is ready and gets icetime. I think KK was rushed and didn't get the ice-time he needed, partly because the Habs were trying to compete and relegated him in close games.

They were sheltering KK. He was not ready for NHL, and I wander if he will be someday ?

 

[Treb]

No one can give a 100% answer right now on whether Roy should go back or not.

To me he should go back unless he is a bona fide upgrade on one of our top4 wingers.

That's about a 90 to 10 for me, but I'll wait for him to show up at camp.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

They were sheltering KK. He was not ready for NHL, and I wander if he will be someday ?

His skating was definitely not ready and he should have played another season or two in europe improving that part of his game. Funny enough, he never did improve his skating. He's still bambi on skates and to me that's probably the Habs player development team's fault. They should have been all over him trying to improve his skating.

 

[Wats]

Very skilled and a great shot to go with a high offensive hockey IQ. He knows where to go create offense or score goals. He's also got some good hands. For a winger he needs to play at a faster pace. Speed is his achiles heel at the moment. If he can improve on that he will be really dangerous.

He reminds me of Toffoli the way he plays the game.

Feel like he's the best comparison. Toffoli was also returned to OHL after being tied for league lead in draft+1.

No need to mess with his development by trying to play 3D chess. Put all the focus on developing Wright in NHL next season assuming he'll be drafted and make it.

 

[FF de Mars]

Have you seen KK play lately? KK was selected so early because his dad was the coach of the team, named the Asat Jokers! He gave him more icetime than he deserved, he had almost twice as many points than Slafkowsky has this year. KK was overrated from the beginning. He caused his own demise because he's a lazy and entitled gen Z silver spoon baby. Roy had to battle through so much more adversity to get where he is, you can't even compare the two players.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Why have so few guys had good seasons young, especially recently? Crosby did great, but KK has the 46th most points as an 18 year old and he clearly shouldn't have gone near the NHL until he was 21 or 22. Hitting the NHL young was a lot more common the further back you go, less structure, less pressure, less to learn. 22 players with 0.75 ppg at 18 with only a few recent guys, including Laine who probably shouldn't have been there, same for Skinner.

You have 56 players over 0.75 ppg at 19, 162 at 0.5 or over. The 56 is 1-2 per year. 162 is 3-4 per year. This draft year is not stellar, so having none wouldn't be a stretch, and, who knows, maybe someone like Aho will emerge.

For Wright, or whoever the habs draft 1OA there is an argument but considering it's not a strong draft, there isn't a generational player, and that lots of guys lost development time to COVID, the argument to have the guy in the NHL immediately isn't great. Best case the guy does OK, but not so well that he worsens the draft pick and prepares for a breakout season, worst case he gets hurt or limits his game. Either way it burns a contract year. Sure, try a few games but send him back at the first sign of struggle or the first game he doesn't play 15 minutes.

I'm not convinced that there is ever any benefit to rushing players. Sure, there may be one or two guys who thrived young, Aho was fine, but we have examples of players who started young and tanked with the habs. What player ended up worse because he spent an extra year or two in the minors? Can we point to anybody who stayed in the minors too long and wasted potential?

Sillinger hasn't had a career yet, so we can't know how if it will help or hurt him.

Making references to 3OA and lower guys does not deal with the 1OA situation.

If Shane Wright is the 1OA this year and is not going to play in the NHL in his D+1, then he probably should not be the 1OA.

 

[Treb]

Have you seen KK play lately? KK was selected so early because his dad was the coach of the team, named the Asat Jokers! He gave him more icetime than he deserved, he had almost twice as many points than Slafkowsky has this year. KK was overrated from the beginning. He caused his own demise because he's a lazy and entitled gen Z silver spoon baby. Roy had to battle through so much more adversity to get where he is, you can't even compare the two players.

What's your excuse for his performance at the WJC-U18 two years in a row and his performance in other junior international games?

Also, Roy came in the Q as a silver spoon baby. He did overcome it later as he discovered he actually needed to try if he wanted to play pro hockey.

 

[BaseballCoach]

We only have two 1 OA Data points since the pandemic.
Latreniere who should have gone back and struggled.
Power who went back to the NCAA and benefitted from it.

Power did not sign a contract so yeah he went to the NCAA. However, the NCAA is older and bigger competition than Junior.

 

[1909]

His skating was definitely not ready and he should have played another season or two in europe improving that part of his game. Funny enough, he never did improve his skating. He's still bambi on skates and to me that's probably the Habs player development team's fault. They should have been all over him trying to improve his skating.

The player has to take a fair chunk of the blame. His own father is coaching at the highest level in Finland. Do you think he does not know about his son's shortcomings and never told him to work on it ? Same for the Habs org. They told him to fix things. He never listened.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

The player has to take a fair chunk of the blame. His own father is coaching at the highest level in Finland. Do you think he does not know about his son's shortcomings and never told him to work on it ? Same for the Habs org. They told him to fix things. He never listened.

I think telling him to fix it is not enough. They need to assign a skating coach and get regular feedback on progress. Basically set a bar and if he doesn't hit it then he's in Laval for a year. There has to be responsibility by the player and the Hab's development team. I think that's where Hughes believes he can make a difference moving forward.

 

[FF de Mars]

What's your excuse for his performance at the WJC-U18 two years in a row and his performance in other junior international games?

Also, Roy came in the Q as a silver spoon baby. He did overcome it later as he discovered he actually needed to try if he wanted to play pro hockey.

The WJC are exhibition games, I know why people put so much stock into it: because they're fun to watch. However the WJC are the worst predictor ever as they don't reflect an actual pro game.

Roy earned his 1OV through hard work, he wasn't a silverspoon manchild, Roy's father didn't give him ice time on a platter on the worst team in the league with no responsability. Roy had to earn it. Then he fought depression, anxiety, being overweight, put himself back toghether and tore the league, something KK has never done. KK takes it easy and parties at electronic music festivals instead of training in the offseason.

Roy is already D+1, wheras KK made the team in D-0 strickly based on where he was drafted and Bergevin's tendency to rush players and neediness at the center position.

I say let Roy have his shot, if he misses it it's on him, but if he's the better player he should make the team imho.

KK and Roy is a bad comparison.

 

[Treb]

The WJC are exhibition games, I know why people put so much stock into it: because they're fun to watch. However the WJC are the worst predictor ever as they don't reflect an actual pro game.

Roy earned his 1OV through hard work, he wasn't a silverspoon manchild, Roy's father didn't give him ice time on a platter on the worst team in the league with no responsability. Roy had to earn it. Then he fought depression, anxiety, being overweight, put himself back toghether and tore the league, something KK has never done. KK takes it easy and parties at electronic music festivals instead of training in the offseason.

Moreover, Roy is already D+1, wheras KK made the team in D-0 strickly based on where he was drafted and Bergevin's tendency to rush players and neediness at the center position.

I say let Roy have his shot, if he misses it it's on him, but if he's the better player he should make the team imho.

KK and Roy is a bad comparison.

Kotkaniemi was also productive at the Finnish Junior level, so...

Joshua Roy 100% coasted through talent alone until this year. It was pretty apparent and it is why NHL teams shied away from him until the 5th round.

When a hockey prospect lose 20 pounds in the offseason, it's a sign that they weren't serious before.

Luckily for us, Joshua Roy seems to have waken up and actually understood pro hockey needs pro work, so he's doing great now.

He was still a risk when he was taken as he could have just continued toward his path to irrelevancy.

 

[1909]

I think telling him to fix it is not enough. They need to assign a skating coach and get regular feedback on progress. Basically set a bar and if he doesn't hit it then he's in Laval for a year. There has to be responsibility by the player and the Hab's development team. I think that's where Hughes believes he can make a difference moving forward.

Some players never learn. Do you thing Canes an ex Laviolette du nothing for him this season ? They have him 6,1M + 8 years at 4,82M $....

 

[FF de Mars]

Kotkaniemi was also productive at the Finnish Junior level, so...

Joshua Roy 100% coasted through talent alone until this year. It was pretty apparent and it is why NHL teams shied away from him until the 5th round.

When a hockey prospect lose 20 pounds in the offseason, it's a sign that they weren't serious before.

Luckily for us, Joshua Roy seems to have waken up and actually understood pro hockey needs pro work, so he's doing great now.

He was still a risk when he was taken as he could have just continued toward his path to irrelevancy.

KK was very productive in the Finnish league, much better stats than Slafkowski, because he played on a bad team, other teams didn't give their best against them, they didn't have a defensive system, he could roam. Moreover his dad gave him more icetime than he deserved to boost his draft status. And more importantly he stoped improving, he stayed at floor level. Listen, KK doesn't even believe in himself at this point, he sold himself short signing a 8 years 4.85$ contract! If KK believed in himself he would have waited and signed for 8M$ a year as a UFA after proving his worth as the true elite second line center he could have become! He likes instant gratification so much he signed a 8 year pact at half his worth... because he knows he's too lazy to achieve greatness.

I know Roy had his share of problems but that's what makes him stronger, the point of my argument is that he sailed through, he had to fight for it. He overcame more adversity than KK has.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

Stop with that nonsense, throwing insults at Bergevin, Timmins and others on an anonymous board won't elevate you. Also, to call another person incompetent, you need to be be much better than that person. Hughes is in his first job in hockey other than agent. As for Gorton, his stint with the Rangers with picks like Anderson, Kravtsov,, Kakko and Lafrenière in the top-10 is not better than Bergevin, and Bergevin never had a #1 and a #2 overall.

Also, you can say what you want, but the draft since 2016 is good, and the strategy of pick accumulation since 2018, year after year, is the reason why the pipeline of the team is among the best in the league. Bergevin is the one who made the trade for Suzuki. The main problem of this organization, either with Bergevin or Gainey, is the lack of patience. That led them to shortcuts attempts and their biggest mistakes. If Molson still pushes to make the playoffs every year, Hughes and Gorton will have to trade good young assets for older players. In other words, if they are not allowed to be patient, we will see other stupid attempts like the Aho hostile offer and bringing up 18 yo like KK

The 3 best young players on the team. Suzuki, Caufield and Romanov made it to the NHL only at 20. This should be the rule for every player from now on, unless a player is really dominant in all aspects of the game at a lower level, not just if he got very good stats.

Don't take it so personally, Marc

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

This reminds me of Patriots fans in New-England that are bashing Belichick because it did not move up to pick QB Mac Jones. Second guessing all the decision after the facts is so easy. Also, we never got an open confirmation that Habs wanted Glass over Suzuki, but even if it was the case, the fact is that Bergevin and Timmins made the trade for Suzuki. It is so easy to judge after a player proved his value. Suzuki was far from a sure thing back then. He was invisible at the WJC a few months later and I remember people here were blaming Bergevin for the trade. Also, to say that Bergevin was bad at the trade deadline is defamatory. Just two trades he made should close the discussion, Fleischman + Weise for Danault + 2nd (Romanov) and 2nd + 4th for Petry.

Team sucked. He didn't trade Danault, or Tatar. Obviously Danault helped for the run to the finals, but the team was trash and that could have been more assets and the rebuild started sooner.

Extend Byron, when he could have been dealt now, he's an overpaid 4th liner mainly because he's hurt all the time.

How about when the Habs actually looked good and he added f***ing Dwight King amongst other of questionable players?

For anything positive he did, there's a whole whack of bad he did.

Hopefully Roy is something good he did that this team can benefit from. However, Bergevin and Co f***ing missed on other q players. Duclair falls, Bergevin passes. Nicolas Roy falls, Bergevin passes. Habs picked Lukas Vejdemo, at the time in his draft +1 season instead of Roy.

Habs picked Connor Crisp over Duclair.

Now, this will get moved there anyways, but if you wish to see how Bergevin was an absolute tool, along with Timmins, we can go to the thread about his uselessness.

 

[Treb]

KK was very productive in the Finnish league, much better stats than Slafkowski, because he played on a bad team, other teams didn't give their best against them, they didn't have a defensive system, he could roam. Moreover his dad gave him more icetime than he deserved to boost his draft status. And more importantly he stoped improving, he stayed at floor level. Listen, KK doesn't even believe in himself at this point, he sold himself short signing a 8 years 4.85$ contract! If KK believed in himself he would have waited and signed for 8M$ a year as a UFA after proving his worth as the true elite second line center he could have become! He likes instant gratification so much he signed a 8 year pact at half his worth... because he knows he's too lazy to achieve greatness.

I know Roy had his share of problems but that's what makes him stronger, the point of my argument is that he sailed through, he had to fight for it. He overcame more adversity than KK has.

Would you bet your house that Roy will be better than KK?

Because that's the impression you're giving now.

 

[FF de Mars]

Would you bet your house that Roy will be better than KK?

Because that's the impression you're giving now.

It looks like it.

 

[Treb]

It looks like it.

It could happen, but I would never bet anything on it.

I wouldn't even bet on Roy being an NHLer at all, let alone a better one than KK.