Player Discussion Josh Norris C 6’1” - Part 2

[bicboi64]

Lol. Giroux took over 1200 faceoffs last year and won over 58% of them. Him taking faceoffs is a sustainable solution as long as he wears a Sens jersey.

The problem with Norris not being able to take draws is it limits your top 6 configurations. Stuetzle took less than 500 draws and won only 41% of them. I expect him to get better and he's so damn competitive it probably gnawed at him all summer but we can't have Giroux take draws for both of them.

The bolded contradict each other. That's my whole point, Norris not being able to take faceoffs has loads of consequences

 

[Golden_Jet]

The bolded contradict each other. That's my whole point, Norris not being able to take faceoffs has loads of consequences

If that’s the case, and that’s if, then one of Brady or G are put on their line and take them, no worries really.

 

[bicboi64]

If that’s the case, and that’s if, then one of Brady or G are put on their line and take them, no worries really.

Now that I think of it, i'm okay with that as long as it reunited the Brady Norris Bath line. That line is going to be amazing this season if everyone is healthy

 

[OD99]

There are lots of things that stress the shoulder more than faceoffs. If he can't take faceoffs, he isn't really healed.

I am sure there will be a mental factor to get over but hopefully that is taken care of in camp and a few preseason games.

 

[bert]

I think saying we saw it with DBC being the second option is a touch misleading; he was stuck playing with Pinto as his center, and Batherson was struggling coming off a major surgery.

Norris will be coming into a situation far better assuming guys don't get hurt five games into the season again. He'll have Tarasenko looking to justify his next contract, and a healthy Batherson on his wings (or be reunited with Tkachuk and perhaps Batherson or Giroux). Either way, DBC was not put in a position to succeed, at least at 5v5. That shouldn't be the case with Norris.

He's not likely going to pace at 40+ goals again, but I think he can still earn his contract by being a responsible two way center that can fill the net.

This narrative that DBC was not put in a position to succeed is ridiculous. He got first pp and then was put on a line with two good player with favorable matchups. He was the biggest problem on that line. He created nothing on his own. Norris is a much better player.

Good players make players around them better. DBC didn't do that. Pinto scored just as much without him.

 

[Micklebot]

This narrative that DBC was not put in a position to succeed is ridiculous. He got first pp and then was put on a line with two good player with favorable matchups. He was the biggest problem on that line. He created nothing on his own. Norris is a much better player.

Good players make players around them better. DBC didn't do that. Pinto scored just as much without him.

It's not ridiculous, it's factual. Yes, he got lots of pp time, and as a result he had career highs pp pts. It's 5v5 where he wasn't put in a place to succeed, and it's ridiculous that people who watched this team last year can continue to deny it. You know full well Batherson was struggling coming off his surgery, took him until March before his ankle felt normal again, and you know full well Pinto was a rookie not ready for 2nd line duties, kid was in over his head and it showed, yet here we are.


Putting DeBrincat in a place to succeed would have meant on a line with a top end playmaker to take advantage of his skill set, either of Stü or Giroux likely would have worked but it's hard to break up that top line when it's really going.

 

[bert]

It's not ridiculous, it's factual. Yes, he got lots of pp time, and as a result he had career highs pp pts. It's 5v5 where he wasn't put in a place to succeed, and it's ridiculous that people who watched this team last year can continue to deny it. You know full well Batherson was struggling coming off his surgery, took him until March before his ankle felt normal again, and you know full well Pinto was a rookie not ready for 2nd line duties, kid was in over his head and it showed, yet here we are.


Putting DeBrincat in a place to succeed would have meant on a line with a top end playmaker to take advantage of his skill set, either of Stü or Giroux likely would have worked but it's hard to break up that top line when it's really going.

It's not factual Batherson is a 60 point player and Pinto is a 20 goal scorer. They also never had the other teams shut down pair or top defensive lines to play against. He also got double duty on the pp...... By your definition no player that produces without first line linemates is put in a position to succeed. Yet many many players do it. They absolutely put him in a position to succeed and he proved he isn't an 8 million dollar player. Which is why I am extatic he wasn't extended. 8 million dollar forwards have to be able to carry a line.

Vegas and Florida had two offensive studs on a line with a weak third line mate on their 2nd and 3rd lines and they all produced. There's countless examples of it in the league.

 

[Cat Herder]

I was at the Jonesy's game ... and Norris looked fast. He mostly passed but took a few shots. I don't think he took any faceoffs. He had 2 assists in the game.

Brady had (IIRC) a goal and an assist

Oh and Debrincat was not even noticeable

 

[Micklebot]

It's not factual Batherson is a 60 point player and Pinto is a 20 goal scorer. They also never had the other teams shut down pair or top defensive lines to play against. He also got double duty on the pp...... By your definition no player that produces without first line linemates is put in a position to succeed. Yet many many players do it. They absolutely put him in a position to succeed and he proved he isn't an 8 million dollar player. Which is why I am extatic he wasn't extended. 8 million dollar forwards have to be able to carry a line.

Vegas and Florida had two offensive studs on a line with a weak third line mate on their 2nd and 3rd lines and they all produced. There's countless examples of it in the league.

What a load of crap, by my definition... enough with the straw man arguments you're better than that Bert.

What I said is his 5v5 linemates were not ideal, you haven't refuted that Batherson was struggling, nor that Pinto was over his head in a second line role. Why, because those are frankly facts.

Yes, player like stone and Eichel who are elite players will produce no matter the linemates, same with Matt Tkachuk and Barkov, congrats you showed that 10 mil players can produce with a third guy on their line that isn't elite. Not really proof that Debrincat's linemates didn't play a role in his season, the whole line struggled, it wasn't just one guy on the line that isn't a traditional pt producer.

If you can't admit that broken Batherson and Rookie Pinto aren't ideal linemates for a scoring winger idk what to tell you,

 

[Alf Silfversson]

What a load of crap, by my definition... enough with the straw man arguments you're better than that Bert.

What I said is his 5v5 linemates were not ideal, you haven't refuted that Batherson was struggling, nor that Pinto was over his head in a second line role. Why, because those are frankly facts.

Yes, player like stone and Eichel who are elite players will produce no matter the linemates, same with Matt Tkachuk and Barkov, congrats you showed that 10 mil players can produce with a third guy on their line that isn't elite. Not really proof that Debrincat's linemates didn't play a role in his season, the whole line struggled, it wasn't just one guy on the line that isn't a traditional pt producer.

If you can't admit that broken Batherson and Rookie Pinto aren't ideal linemates for a scoring winger idk what to tell you,

Agreed. We failed to make the most of DBC here. It was a failure by the coaching staff, IMO. And Batherson was the big problem on that line. I'm a big fan of his game but last year he was garbage.

But whatever, DBC's gone now and the team might be better off using his cap space on Kub and Tarasenko.

 

[bert]

What a load of crap, by my definition... enough with the straw man arguments you're better than that Bert.

What I said is his 5v5 linemates were not ideal, you haven't refuted that Batherson was struggling, nor that Pinto was over his head in a second line role. Why, because those are frankly facts.

Yes, player like stone and Eichel who are elite players will produce no matter the linemates, same with Matt Tkachuk and Barkov, congrats you showed that 10 mil players can produce with a third guy on their line that isn't elite. Not really proof that Debrincat's linemates didn't play a role in his season, the whole line struggled, it wasn't just one guy on the line that isn't a traditional pt producer.

If you can't admit that broken Batherson and Rookie Pinto aren't ideal linemates for a scoring winger idk what to tell you,

Straw man? Your argument was awful and I simply pointed it out then gave a tangible example. Reinhart produces with Lundell and Luosterainen. There's another one. Debrincat was the problem not the linemates.

Batherson and Pinto should be more than enough if you want 8 million a year.

Pinto looks just as good with Tyler Motte as he does with Debrincat. So who's the problem? Pinto or Debrincat.

 

[Micklebot]

Straw man? Your argument was awful and I simply pointed it out then gave a tangible example. Reinhart produces with Lundell and Luosterainen. There's another one. Debrincat was the problem not the linemates.

Reinhart produced almost identical to Debrincat, he also played twice as much with Barkov than he did with Luosterainen.

Batherson and Pinto should be more than enough if you want 8 million a year.

If Batherson was fully healthy? Sure, but he was brutal almost all year.

Pinto looks just as good with Tyler Motte as he does with Debrincat. So who's the problem? Pinto or Debrincat.

Your argument seems to be linemates don't matter, players should produce regardless of who they are out there with, chemistry and playing styles be damned, which is so absurd it seems pointless to continue, nobody is saying DeBrincat was great, he had his own struggles at times finishing chances and clearly got frustrated, but to suggest putting him with a rookie center that was over his head on a second line and Batherson who was still really struggling coming off surgery was pointing DeBrincat in a position to succeed is beyond strange. Putting a goal scorer in a position to succeed would be getting him on a line with a playmaker, we simply didn't do that.

 

[JD1]

It's not ridiculous, it's factual. Yes, he got lots of pp time, and as a result he had career highs pp pts. It's 5v5 where he wasn't put in a place to succeed, and it's ridiculous that people who watched this team last year can continue to deny it. You know full well Batherson was struggling coming off his surgery, took him until March before his ankle felt normal again, and you know full well Pinto was a rookie not ready for 2nd line duties, kid was in over his head and it showed, yet here we are.


Putting DeBrincat in a place to succeed would have meant on a line with a top end playmaker to take advantage of his skill set, either of Stü or Giroux likely would have worked but it's hard to break up that top line when it's really going.

I agree with your point of view here

The flip side of that coin is putting Pinto and Batherson with DeBrincat to give them a chance to succeed. It didn't really work but to @bert 's point, DBC didn't make the players around him better.

It's yesterday's news though. Batherson will be healthy and Pinto will beca strong 3C.

 

[bert]

What a load of crap, by my definition... enough with the straw man arguments you're better than that Bert.

What I said is his 5v5 linemates were not ideal, you haven't refuted that Batherson was struggling, nor that Pinto was over his head in a second line role. Why, because those are frankly facts.

Yes, player like stone and Eichel who are elite players will produce no matter the linemates, same with Matt Tkachuk and Barkov, congrats you showed that 10 mil players can produce with a third guy on their line that isn't elite. Not really proof that Debrincat's linemates didn't play a role in his season, the whole line struggled, it wasn't just one guy on the line that isn't a traditional pt producer.

If you can't admit that broken Batherson and Rookie Pinto aren't ideal linemates for a scoring winger idk what to tell you,

Straw man? Your argument was awful and I simply pointed it out then gave a tangible example. Reinhart produces with Lundell and Luosterainen. There's another one. Debrincat was the problem not the linemates.

Batherson and Pinto should be more than enough if you want 8 million a year.

Pinto looks just as good with Tyler Motte as he does with Debrincat. So who's the problem? Pinto or

Reinhart produced almost identical to Debrincat, he also played twice as much with Barkov than he did with Luosterainen.

If Batherson was fully healthy? Sure, but he was brutal almost all year.

Your argument seems to be linemates don't matter, players should produce regardless of who they are out there with, chemistry and playing styles be damned, which is so absurd it seems pointless to continue, nobody is saying DeBrincat was great, he had his own struggles at times finishing chances and clearly got frustrated, but to suggest putting him with a rookie center that was over his head on a second line and Batherson who was still really struggling coming off surgery was pointing DeBrincat in a position to succeed is beyond strange. Putting a goal scorer in a position to succeed would be getting him on a line with a playmaker, we simply didn't do that.

You're not watching the games if you think the linemates were the primary issue. Debrincat missed countless open looks and rarely creates anything on his own. He was just as responsible for that lines failures as anyone. Who exactly was the one struggling in the role? The guy that wants 8 million a year that can't carry a line or the rookie center man who was one of two to score 20 goals last year. Who did all the grunt work on the line, puck retrieval d zone coverage etc. It was the wingers role to create in this instance.

My argument is not that linemates don't matter my argument is that Debrincat isn't very good. Or isn't good enough to carry a line. Which in my estimation is how you should critique a player. On their performance. Reinhart produced in the playoffs with those players when the games got even tighter and harder. Those are easily worse linemates than Debrincat had. At some point the onus is on the player. I don't think that those excuses validate him. I'm glad he's gone the sens dodged a bullet. All things considered I'll take Kubalik, Tarasenko and a 1st all day over DeBrincat. He is a great complimentary piece in the right situation this was not a good fit. But again if I'm paying a guy that much he has to bring more to the table. In comparison to Reinhart he didn't produce nearly as much 5 on 5. Reinhart is a tremendous defensive player Debrincat is absolutely not. They are Polar opposites in that regard. And Reinhart makes less money.
.
Tbh for the sens make up and roster I wouldn't take debrincat for free at 8 million. They dodged a massive bullet.

 

[Micklebot]

You're not watching the games if you think the linemates were the primary issue. Debrincat missed countless open looks and rarely creates anything on his own. He was just as responsible for that lines failures as anyone. Who exactly was the one struggling in the role? The guy that wants 8 million a year that can't carry a line or the rookie center man who was one of two to score 20 goals last year. Who did all the grunt work on the line, puck retrieval d zone coverage etc. It was the wingers role to create in this instance.

My argument is not that linemates don't matter my argument is that Debrincat isn't very good. Or isn't good enough to carry a line. Which in my estimation is how you should critique a player. On their performance. Reinhart produced in the playoffs with those players when the games got even tighter and harder. Those are easily worse linemates than Debrincat had. At some point the onus is on the player. I don't think that those excuses validate him. I'm glad he's gone the sens dodged a bullet. All things considered I'll take Kubalik, Tarasenko and a 1st all day over DeBrincat. He is a great complimentary piece in the right situation this was not a good fit. But again if I'm paying a guy that much he has to bring more to the table. In comparison to Reinhart he didn't produce nearly as much 5 on 5. Reinhart is a tremendous defensive player Debrincat is absolutely not. They are Polar opposites in that regard. And Reinhart makes less money.
.
Tbh for the sens make up and roster I wouldn't take debrincat for free at 8 million. They dodged a massive bullet.

So we get to the point where you accuse others who don't agree with you of not watching the game, I think we're done here Bert,

And no, I'm not saying DeBrincat was great in his role, I'm just acknowledging reality, you can't be both put in a position to succeed and be placed on a line where your center is clearly over slotted for his experience level and skill set, and your other winger is struggling with the lingering effects of surgery. That's not a position to succeed. It's a situation to overcome. I'm not arguing DeBrincat was great, he had his own struggles too, not being put in a position to succeed and having your own struggles are not mutually exclusive, and can actually contribute to one another compounding the issue.

Whether DBC was worth 8 mil, or if we're better off going with a different roster construction are both completely different issues from whether he was put in a position to succeed.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Debrincat with Stutzle puts up at least 70 points, most likely 80, and maybe even 90.

No one is complaining about his production if he plays with Stutzle.

 

[SlapJack]

Debrincat with Stutzle puts up at least 70 points, most likely 80, and maybe even 90.

No one is complaining about his production if he plays with Stutzle.

Maybe. They did play together for a bit and did not click. Brady was better suited for Stützle

 

[bert]

So we get to the point where you accuse others who don't agree with you of not watching the game, I think we're done here Bert,

And no, I'm not saying DeBrincat was great in his role, I'm just acknowledging reality, you can't be both put in a position to succeed and be placed on a line where your center is clearly over slotted for his experience level and skill set, and your other winger is struggling with the lingering effects of surgery. That's not a position to succeed. It's a situation to overcome. I'm not arguing DeBrincat was great, he had his own struggles too, not being put in a position to succeed and having your own struggles are not mutually exclusive, and can actually contribute to one another compounding the issue.

Whether DBC was worth 8 mil, or if we're better off going with a different roster construction are both completely different issues from whether he was put in a position to succeed.

No I'm going with the point he got set up alot and missed tons of open looks. With players that you don't think we'rent adequate for him to play with. If you are unable to recognize this then I wonder if you legitimately watched and were paying attention. I am sorry if you are offended by it but that's what happened.

 

[Micklebot]

No I'm going with the point he got set up alot and missed tons of open looks. With players that you don't think we'rent adequate for him to play with. If you are unable to recognize this then I wonder if you legitimately watched and were paying attention. I am sorry if you are offended by it but that's what happened.

So bert, this may come as a surprise, but you can get and miss open looks, while not being put in a position to succeed. Part of why he got open looks is because he put himself into a position to get those looks. That is one of his skills. Part of why he might miss an open look might by a pass not being in the right spot, or coming in too hot. That's where playing with Pinto instead of say Stutzle might play into the situation.

If he got chances in spite of playing with a center that should have been on a 3rd line, and a winger that was playing below his standards as he recovered from surgery, that doesn't mean he was put in a position to succeed. Him missing on chances and not being put in a position to succeed are not mutually exclusive, sorry if you can't understand that.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Maybe. They did play together for a bit and did not click. Brady was better suited for Stützle

Stutzle and Brady both ended up negative, they were not good together defensively. If you showed me a season where the Pizza line ended negative I would assume its one where we missed the playoffs. can't stack a top line have it perform negative and then blame the other lines for not ensuring we made the playoffs.

they did not play together long enough time to see if they would click, only on pp. and if you watch those year end points they feature heavily in the others. despite not really playing a lot together.

DBC one truly elite skill is his ability to get open for looks, Stutzle ability is to possess the puck until his teammate gets open. and we barely tried to leverage that together. makes no sense.

 

[bert]

Stutzle and Brady both ended up negative, they were not good together defensively. If you showed me a season where the Pizza line ended negative I would assume its one where we missed the playoffs. can't stack a top line have it perform negative and then blame the other lines for not ensuring we made the playoffs.

they did not play together long enough time to see if they would click, only on pp. and if you watch those year end points they feature heavily in the others. despite not really playing a lot together.

DBC one truly elite skill is his ability to get open for looks, Stutzle ability is to possess the puck until his teammate gets open. and we barely tried to leverage that together. makes no sense.

Debrincat was -31!!!! Lol. Stutzle just had the best d + 3 season a player has had in a decade outside of mcdavid and Brady was one of the best wingers in hockey more points than any season debrincat has ever had. You make no sense in complaining about this.

So bert, this may come as a surprise, but you can get and miss open looks, while not being put in a position to succeed. Part of why he got open looks is because he put himself into a position to get those looks. That is one of his skills. Part of why he might miss an open look might by a pass not being in the right spot, or coming in too hot. That's where playing with Pinto instead of say Stutzle might play into the situation.

If he got chances in spite of playing with a center that should have been on a 3rd line, and a winger that was playing below his standards as he recovered from surgery, that doesn't mean he was put in a position to succeed. Him missing on chances and not being put in a position to succeed are not mutually exclusive, sorry if you can't understand that.

Every excuse in the book.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Debrincat was -31!!!! Lol. Stutzle just had the best d + 3 season a player has had in a decade outside of mcdavid and Brady was one of the best wingers in hockey more points than any season debrincat has ever had. You make no sense in complaining about this.


Every excuse in the book.

Ya one line averaged -3, the other -29

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Debrincat was -31!!!! Lol. Stutzle just had the best d + 3 season a player has had in a decade outside of mcdavid and Brady was one of the best wingers in hockey more points than any season debrincat has ever had. You make no sense in complaining about this.


Every excuse in the book.

because Batherson was dragging down every line he was with,

and yea stutzle had a hart level season maybe our most dynamic forward season since Spezza or Hossa and he still ended up net negative? that's how you know it wasn't working defensively.

 

[Micklebot]

because Batherson was dragging down every line he was with,

and yea stutzle had a hart level season maybe our most dynamic forward season since Spezza or Hossa and he still ended up net negative? that's how you know it wasn't working defensively.

for perspective, 5v5;

With Batherson, 598:44, 17GF, 31 GA, -14, 14 pts
Without Bath, 539:16, 25 GF, 27 GA, -2, 16 pts

Most of that time away from Bath (About 250 mins) would have been with Giroux, and one of Norris, Stu or Greig in which he had 54% GF or +2, He also did another 104 mins with Pinto and Giroux bringing it to 354 of the 539 away from Bath however that 104 mins with Pinto and Giroux was not as successful in terms of +/- at -5 or 27% GF.

 

[bert]

because Batherson was dragging down every line he was with,

and yea stutzle had a hart level season maybe our most dynamic forward season since Spezza or Hossa and he still ended up net negative? that's how you know it wasn't working defensively.

Ah the debrincat apologists are gaining traction I see. It was all Bathersons fault. Right.

It's absolutely bonkers to actually not be able to consider that Tkachuk and his chemistry with Stutzle was a large part of the success.