Player Discussion Josh Norris C 6’1” - Part 2

[Ice-Tray]

I suspect that it was less about ‘knowing that Norris couldn’t take a face off’ and more about easing him and his rehabbed shoulder back into games.

I don’t see why you would want to start out in the harshest situations for the injury when you could play a few games absorbing hits and such first to see how it goes. That seems like not only common sense, but human nature after a serious injury.

He went through the entire rehab program and was still held out past the time when doctors cleared him to play. Eventually you have to let the kid get into some games to see if it worked, especially since he’d been practicing with the team for weeks and seemed good to go from all available checks (doctors, trainers, Norris, coaching staff after seeing him in drills and practice).

What happened sucked, but it was always going to be either rehab worked, or it didn’t and you find that out by having the guy play a few real NHL games.

Now he’s back to surgery as the option, on his own terms, and we’ll see him raring to go at camp next fall. Again it sucks, but this really isn’t a situation that requires a culprit to dump a bunch of blame on.

Team Canada uses our training and medical staff, and our guys or highly regarded around the league as mentioned often enough in the media. It’s weird to turn on them, especially since we know Norris had several doctors from inside AND outside the organization council him.

 

[coladin]

Try out the shoulder in practice where you can control the contact, don't test it during an actual game.

The problen with shoulders is , in a practice setting, you can brace yourself . In a game, with an unpredictable opponent, you cannot. I was watching Josh closely and, near the boards, he was bracing for something. When he did something without thinking, like reaching, he felt the sharp pain. That, in a nutshell, is the frustration of the shoulder joint.

Reading other responses, it appears that many here are hung up on the "well, if he couldn't take a faceoff, he should not have returned." Well, while completely logical, and I will also defer to @Rand0m here as we have both has shoulder issues, and essentially stated the same thing...I would be more inclined to believe that he could probably have taken a face off, but there was no point with Giroux there and maybe after more games, he would have taken faceoffs. Of course we will never know at this stage.

 

[BankStreetParade]

who cares about surgery. he couldn't take faceoffs. how does that indicate he's ready?

I'm not the team doctor, how the f*** would I know whether he was ready or not? He had lots of people, including doctors, surgeons, PTs and athletic trainers, look at him and give the OK.

Maybe if the team didn't shit the bed in the games leading up to and including the ones he played, he wouldn't have opted for surgery so soon? It's clear they're shutting him down because the season is over. Two weeks ago, they weren't that far outside the wild card pack. Things changed and the risk they were willing to assume is no longer acceptable.

How many people in here have said "if this was the playoffs, I'd be ok with playing him"? Well, they built a plan to get him back into the lineup hoping they would be close enough to a playoff spot to make a realistic push for it. That dream has ended and now he can go get surgery and be ready to go for puck drop next season.

Not everything is as intentionally malicious or incompetent as you guys always make it out to be.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I'm not the team doctor, how the f*** would I know whether he was ready or not? He had lots of people, including doctors, surgeons, PTs and athletic trainers, look at him and give the OK.

Maybe if the team didn't shit the bed in the games leading up to and including the ones he played, he wouldn't have opted for surgery so soon? It's clear they're shutting him down because the season is over. Two weeks ago, they weren't that far outside the wild card pack. Things changed and the risk they were willing to assume is no longer acceptable.

How many people in here have said "if this was the playoffs, I'd be ok with playing him"? Well, they built a plan to get him back into the lineup hoping they would be close enough to a playoff spot to make a realistic push for it. That dream has ended and now he can go get surgery and be ready to go for puck drop next season.

Not everything is as intentionally malicious or incompetent as you guys always make it out to be.

the season has long been over.

so yes it was a pure desperation move on Dorion and DJ whom may never get jobs in the NHL again for the abject failures they have shown, resulting in them throwing a hail mary.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Looks like the Norris conspiracy theorists were correct.

This is such a massive failure on management's part and incredibly negligent.

There was a theory making the rounds Monday the club had “rushed him back”, but that couldn’t be further from the truth.

Norris, Dorion and the medical staff were in lockstep with the route that was taken in his recovery.

“Ultimately, it’s his decision as the player, and he talked to a surgeon in the States. The guy had done his surgery before and his thought was that he’d rehab it and there would be a legitimate chance that he wouldn’t re-injure it. That ended up not being the case,”

GARRIOCH: Need for shoulder surgery takes Josh Norris out for the season

The return of Josh Norris to the Ottawa Senators was a short-lived one.

ottawasun.com

 

[BankStreetParade]

the season has long been over.

so yes it was a pure desperation move on Dorion and DJ whom may never get jobs in the NHL again for the abject failures they have shown, resulting in them throwing a hail mary.

Glad you've posted your feelings about Dorion and DJ for the one billionth time this month. We all know your position, don't worry about any of us forgetting. You might be able to say something else that could, I don't know, be interesting.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Glad you've posted your feelings about Dorion and DJ for the one billionth time this month. We all know your position, don't worry about any of us forgetting. You might be able to say something else that could, I don't know, be interesting.

Having a different opinion on Dorion would be false.

So naw.

 

[bicboi64]

I suspect that it was less about ‘knowing that Norris couldn’t take a face off’ and more about easing him and his rehabbed shoulder back into games.

I don’t see why you would want to start out in the harshest situations for the injury when you could play a few games absorbing hits and such first to see how it goes. That seems like not only common sense, but human nature after a serious injury.

Against Pittsburgh and Winnipeg

Stu played 20:46, 20:57
Norris played 17:05,15:51
Pinto played 15:03, 12:01
Kastelic played 10:07, 6:20

If they are trying to ease Norris in, maybe he should be playing the second most amount of our centres for two games, especially if he can't take faceoffs. Let Norris r rehab until the discomfort in his shoulder is gone, but letting him in screams negligent

 

[Senscore]

There was a theory making the rounds Monday the club had “rushed him back”, but that couldn’t be further from the truth.

Norris, Dorion and the medical staff were in lockstep with the route that was taken in his recovery.

“Ultimately, it’s his decision as the player, and he talked to a surgeon in the States. The guy had done his surgery before and his thought was that he’d rehab it and there would be a legitimate chance that he wouldn’t re-injure it. That ended up not being the case,”

GARRIOCH: Need for shoulder surgery takes Josh Norris out for the season

The return of Josh Norris to the Ottawa Senators was a short-lived one.

ottawasun.com

A player was allowed to return obviously before he was 100% and at risk to seriously re-injure himself.

Then he almost immediately did. If Norris was on board with it with full knowledge of the risk he bears responsibility in part but ultimately management signed off on this.

We just signed this guy to a $63 million deal. That's one of the largest investments this team has ever made. I expect a little more caution, especially given this season is already lost.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Against Pittsburgh and Winnipeg

Stu played 20:46, 20:57
Norris played 17:05,15:51
Pinto played 15:03, 12:01
Kastelic played 10:07, 6:20

If they are trying to ease Norris in, maybe he should be playing the second most amount of our centres for two games, especially if he can't take faceoffs. Let Norris r rehab until the discomfort in his shoulder is gone, but letting him in screams negligent

I think the point was that he felt fine, good enough to play, and to have everyone around him give him the green light. Doctors, trainers, therapists, even the coaches, aren’t going to give the green light just because the GM is fearful of his job or something.

He was good to go, as good as rehab was going to get him. Turns out he could play lots, and play well, even score, and then some minor tweak put an end to it. I suspect that avoiding face offs to start was to not put him immediately in the position that stresses the joint the most until he had made it through a few full NHL games.

That’s the thing with rehab, it’s not like with more time it was going to heal up more, it was at the place that rehab take you.

Anyways, I don’t think that this situation is one that has or needs a villain, and certainly no one in the organization, nor the player, outside doctors, or even respected media folks have said any different.

A player was allowed to return obviously before he was 100% and at risk to seriously re-injure himself.

Then he almost immediately did. If Norris was on board with it with full knowledge of the risk he bears responsibility in part but ultimately management signed off on this.

We just signed this guy to a $63 million deal. That's one of the largest investments this team has ever made. I expect a little more caution, especially given this season is already lost.

I don’t think rehab repairs the damage 100%, that’s why he went through the entire time frame of rehab, then a few weeks more even before ever playing. It either works, or it doesn’t, and you won’t know until you play in a real game.

I think that’s the sticking point, the idea that more time would have healed things 100%. Clearly time didn’t heal this wound, he needs surgery.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Having a different opinion on Dorion would be false.

So naw.

Offers him an opportunity to discuss literally anything else...still takes a swipe at Dorion.

 

[Micklebot]

A player was allowed to return obviously before he was 100% and at risk to seriously re-injure himself.

Then he almost immediately did. If Norris was on board with it with full knowledge of the risk he bears responsibility in part but ultimately management signed off on this.

We just signed this guy to a $63 million deal. That's one of the largest investments this team has ever made. I expect a little more caution, especially given this season is already lost.

Do you honestly think they could hide the risk from Norris if they even wanted to? He's not daft, he saw what happened to Pinto, he saw numerous Dr's

The real question is whether getting surgery right away would have been better long term than trying rehab first and then getting surgery if it's unsuccessful, and whether rehabbing longer would have yielded different results (no need for surgery) if waiti g longer doesn't change anything because the way it healed was the problem then testing it out was just how they found out. Either way now he misses the season, with rehab there was a chance surgery wasn't required and with surgery right away he gets more recovery time for next season.

 

[TeamRenzo]

The problen with shoulders is , in a practice setting, you can brace yourself . In a game, with an unpredictable opponent, you cannot. I was watching Josh closely and, near the boards, he was bracing for something. When he did something without thinking, like reaching, he felt the sharp pain. That, in a nutshell, is the frustration of the shoulder joint.

Reading other responses, it appears that many here are hung up on the "well, if he couldn't take a faceoff, he should not have returned." Well, while completely logical, and I will also defer to @Rand0m here as we have both has shoulder issues, and essentially stated the same thing...I would be more inclined to believe that he could probably have taken a face off, but there was no point with Giroux there and maybe after more games, he would have taken faceoffs. Of course we will never know at this stage.

That's a long way of saying he wasn't 100% and if he isn't 100% then why bother playing some random game in the the middle of a losing season.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I think it's also worthwhile to ask, what are coaches and teams teaching kids regarding faceoffs and how to take draws? We've seen shoulder injuries sprinkled around the league in the past, but it was usually awkward falls, hits in the boards and dirty plays. If players are suddenly at increased risk taking draws, we need to figure out the cause and how to reduce risk as much as possible.

Are they doing them differently (rule changes how to drop the puck, so technique changes)? Is it the composite sticks? Is it a change in how players train (more core muscles and less emphasis on upper body)?

 

[LuckyPierre]

Again, this traces back to Pierre Dorion.

He's had years and years to shape the roster. He's had several high draft picks and plenty of trade capital. He's even had young talent he could have held on to, which he chose to move.

The centre ice position in particular is critical. Throughout the rebuild, we have hinged our success on the fortunes of undersized centres. That alone is a gamble. We drafted Zibanejad, who is a monster, and promptly jettisoned him out for an average sized centre in Brassard, with shoulder problems going back to his time in Columbus. His shoulder issues as the playoffs progressed took a bite out of our chances against Pittsburgh in 2017.

Colin White was a slim 6'1. Slated to be top six, dealt with recurring shoulder problems, and was ultimately a wasted first round pick. Shane Pinto is a slim 6'2, and he's going to have to manage his shoulders for the remainder of his career. Josh Norris is a built 6'1, and he too is going to have to be cautious with his shoulder moving forward.

Logan Brown is perhaps the only exception to the trend above at 6'6, but he came with a major concussion history as an amateur, and was never the type to battle for his ice at the NHL level in spite of his size.

So, as an organization, where is the sense of urgency in owning the centre ice position? It was never a core part of the plan.

No wonder we continue to get caved in at even strength and are perpetually poor defensively. There is a fundamental lack of understanding of what it takes to build a winning roster. We continue to roll out centres who cannot take the rigours of playoff style hockey, and who cannot be relied on to be available for the full 82.

And if the mandate is to continue with drafting skilled, undersized centres, wouldn't it make sense to also mandate the training staff to turn these guys into strong, durable freaks from the moment they enter into our pipeline? Toews won cups as a smaller centre, and his off ice training was cutting edge; it had to be for him to last. Crosby's lower half strength is legendary. It can be done.

However, placating these players and enabling them to forego surgery, wasting months of potential strength building time in the process, will not put them in a better position next season. After last year's circus, Pinto has already ran out of gas. The same is entirely possible for Norris next year given today's state of affairs, and the rush he'll be in to be ready for camp. Totally avoidable if approached with the long view in mind. Sure, they have agency, but if there was trust in the organization's philosophy, if these young players were surrounded with medical staff and management who have a track record of success, the outcome would almost surely be different.

And to those defending the training and medical staff, these are the same guys that completely mishandled and undermined Anders Nilsson's head trauma within the last couple years, as another example. There needs to be a strong voice in the room with a long view. Trotting these guys back out only to get re-injured again is tiresome as a fan, and I can only imagine how much worse it would be as a player. There should be no reason to rush these guys back, but for whatever reason, the message from the top continues to enable that.

It all traces back to Pierre.

 

[Bileur]

Interesting article: How the Canadiens, his agent and his doctors successfully saved Cole Caufield from himself


“For sure, if we were in a playoff spot, no doubt in my mind I would still be playing,” Caufield said Friday morning. “It really wasn’t up to me to stop playing.”


“The concern is a lot of research and a lot of literature that we have in the orthopedic community shows that if the player sustains another instability event, another dislocation, then oftentimes that causes more significant damage and can be much harder to fix, or maybe even be permanent,” Dr. Volk said in a phone interview. “So when somebody has this sort of injury, a lot of discussion goes with the player, the agent, the team, the medical team that if we take the player out of the season and repair the shoulder, yeah, we lose the season, but there’s a really high percentage of return to play, somewhere around the 90-95 percent range.

“So there’s some discussion about, do we take the player out of this season and lose this season, but we have him back in time for next season, versus do we let him play and if he sustains another injury maybe we lose two seasons out of it.”

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Interesting article: How the Canadiens, his agent and his doctors successfully saved Cole Caufield from himself


“For sure, if we were in a playoff spot, no doubt in my mind I would still be playing,” Caufield said Friday morning. “It really wasn’t up to me to stop playing.”


“The concern is a lot of research and a lot of literature that we have in the orthopedic community shows that if the player sustains another instability event, another dislocation, then oftentimes that causes more significant damage and can be much harder to fix, or maybe even be permanent,” Dr. Volk said in a phone interview. “So when somebody has this sort of injury, a lot of discussion goes with the player, the agent, the team, the medical team that if we take the player out of the season and repair the shoulder, yeah, we lose the season, but there’s a really high percentage of return to play, somewhere around the 90-95 percent range.

“So there’s some discussion about, do we take the player out of this season and lose this season, but we have him back in time for next season, versus do we let him play and if he sustains another injury maybe we lose two seasons out of it.”

Hopefully Norris can heal and rehab. He's had recurring shoulder problems since the WJC with Michigan

 

[Icelevel]

Interesting article: How the Canadiens, his agent and his doctors successfully saved Cole Caufield from himself


“For sure, if we were in a playoff spot, no doubt in my mind I would still be playing,” Caufield said Friday morning. “It really wasn’t up to me to stop playing.”


“The concern is a lot of research and a lot of literature that we have in the orthopedic community shows that if the player sustains another instability event, another dislocation, then oftentimes that causes more significant damage and can be much harder to fix, or maybe even be permanent,” Dr. Volk said in a phone interview. “So when somebody has this sort of injury, a lot of discussion goes with the player, the agent, the team, the medical team that if we take the player out of the season and repair the shoulder, yeah, we lose the season, but there’s a really high percentage of return to play, somewhere around the 90-95 percent range.

“So there’s some discussion about, do we take the player out of this season and lose this season, but we have him back in time for next season, versus do we let him play and if he sustains another injury maybe we lose two seasons out of it.”

Looks really really bad on the organization imo.
Been thinking this for years with different injury situations.
Man do I hope Norris (and pinto) can heal themselves properly and have a long successful career.

 

[Nova Stutzlia]

Anyone heard updates on Josh's surgery?
He was injured on Jan. 21.

 

[Nova Stutzlia]

Dorian said Josh had his surgery a few weeks ago.

13:10

 

[DrEasy]

Dorian said Josh had his surgery a few weeks ago.

13:10

And probably on the wrong shoulder.

 

[Xspyrit]

And probably on the wrong shoulder.

What was the parody movie where the guy kept getting the "wrong surgery"?

Was it with Leslie Nielsen?

 

[Ice-Tray]

Good interviews with Dorion, DJ, Reds, and DBC.

Brass will play 1000 with us, Hamonic is unlikely to be traded, DBC 100% no, and it seems as though Dorion has leeway to sign him. DBC said that he’s leaving thy stuff to his agent, but laughed at Dorion’s Chipotle joke.

Dorion said that the next 7 days will really help solidify whether they buy sell or do nothing at the deadline. Said that they have plans in place for all eventualities. Also said the market is thick for RD’s but they are still open to options.

Kids in Belleville may get a chance to play later in the season, but it will depend on how the team is doing. Doesn’t want to mess with a good thing.

Changed his mind on Grieg after Jets game and called him up. Asked DJ to make sure he got some touches.

Had nothing to add about Mann, said Ryan spoke thoroughly on the issue on behalf od the organization.

Said that it was business as usual and that he had no worries that the board would allow adds at the deadline if needed. Said that when new ownership arrived he’d present his plan to them and what happens happens. Planned to do what he thinks is best for the org until then.

Lots of love for Neiler across the interview, and for Stu a well.

Dorion reiterated that several doctors felt that rehab was a good choice for Josh and that they knew that the time line would be about the same either way so they all agreed to give it a shot. Josh will be good to go for camp.

DBC is nervous for tomorrows game, but less so since he’s been here a while. Feels for his buddy Kane and his situation there, but he really wants to win and is focusing on that.

 

[Nova Stutzlia]

Good interviews with Dorion, DJ, Reds, and DBC.

Brass will play 1000 with us, Hamonic is unlikely to be traded, DBC 100% no, and it seems as though Dorion has leeway to sign him. DBC said that he’s leaving thy stuff to his agent, but laughed at Dorion’s Chipotle joke.

Dorion said that the next 7 days will really help solidify whether they buy sell or do nothing at the deadline. Said that they have plans in place for all eventualities. Also said the market is thick for RD’s but they are still open to options.

Kids in Belleville may get a chance to play later in the season, but it will depend on how the team is doing. Doesn’t want to mess with a good thing.

Changed his mind on Grieg after Jets game and called him up. Asked DJ to make sure he got some touches.

Had nothing to add about Mann, said Ryan spoke thoroughly on the issue on behalf od the organization.

Said that it was business as usual and that he had no worries that the board would allow adds at the deadline if needed. Said that when new ownership arrived he’d present his plan to them and what happens happens. Planned to do what he thinks is best for the org until then.

Lots of love for Neiler across the interview, and for Stu a well.

Dorion reiterated that several doctors felt that rehab was a good choice for Josh and that they knew that the time line would be about the same either way so they all agreed to give it a shot. Josh will be good to go for camp.

DBC is nervous for tomorrows game, but less so since he’s been here a while. Feels for his buddy Kane and his situation there, but he really wants to win and is focusing on that.

Not to be picky but ... what the hay, I'll be picky:
Dorion said 7 games.
(At 1:50 of his 17 minute video.)

 

[Ice-Tray]

Not to be picky but ... what the hay, I'll be picky:
Dorion said 7 games.
(At 1:50 of his 17 minute video.)

He totally did, thanks for the correction.