Its never a 4th liner that we lose,it always seems to be an important player for us,... Hopefully next season we can actually see our entire top 9 play more than a handful of games..
Player Discussion Josh Norris C 6’1” - Part 2
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Nac Mac Feegle
wee & free
- Jun 10, 2011
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Ya'll can argue the woulda, coulda, shouldas...but the bottom line is, 2 of our young top 3 Cs and core of the team have had shoulder surgery at least once. Now our locked in long-term 1C is about to have a second shoulder surgery.
I'm no doctor, but I do know there's a limit how often you can fix the same area without complications. Every time he gets hit or hurt from now on, he is much, much closer to suffering a lasting/chronic/career-ending injury to the shoulder over the average player. And that is one hell of a risk for this rebuild.
I hope for the best for Josh (and for f***s sake, keep him off the ice until he is 110% next time!! same for all of our other kids who get hurt from now on!!), but if I'm the grand poohbah in charge of this team, I'm leaning very hard on drafting more centers if at all possible. If two players are somewhat equal in the draft, pick the center. Because we may very well go from overflowing with centers to having zippo in a heartbeat.
I'm no doctor, but I do know there's a limit how often you can fix the same area without complications. Every time he gets hit or hurt from now on, he is much, much closer to suffering a lasting/chronic/career-ending injury to the shoulder over the average player. And that is one hell of a risk for this rebuild.
I hope for the best for Josh (and for f***s sake, keep him off the ice until he is 110% next time!! same for all of our other kids who get hurt from now on!!), but if I'm the grand poohbah in charge of this team, I'm leaning very hard on drafting more centers if at all possible. If two players are somewhat equal in the draft, pick the center. Because we may very well go from overflowing with centers to having zippo in a heartbeat.
Try out the shoulder in practice where you can control the contact, don't test it during an actual game.
Tnuoc Alucard
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- Sep 23, 2015
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not they, Norris…. After he was diagnosed by the Team doctor(s), he consulted his own specialist…… hope that clears up the confusion
If it becomes a recurring issue there’s always LTIR. Poor performance would be worse than injury.
There's an interesting article in the Athletic this morning about the Norris situation
In the article Pinto discusses his situation
There's a link to a fall 2022 Athletic article that talks about athlete's involvement in their health situations
There's discussion about nhl player rights in the CBA and seeing specialists
And there is a statement in there about the rehab window being 8 to 12 weeks and Norris being out 12.5 weeks so rushing him back wasn't actually a thing
A somewhat similar situation happened with nick Robertson in Toronto. 8 weeks into rehab he opted for surgery.
In the article Pinto discusses his situation
There's a link to a fall 2022 Athletic article that talks about athlete's involvement in their health situations
There's discussion about nhl player rights in the CBA and seeing specialists
And there is a statement in there about the rehab window being 8 to 12 weeks and Norris being out 12.5 weeks so rushing him back wasn't actually a thing
A somewhat similar situation happened with nick Robertson in Toronto. 8 weeks into rehab he opted for surgery.
Rand0m
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- Oct 2, 2011
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As a long time sufferer of shoulder injuries (torn labrum) the only thing that prevented re-injury was surgery, anything else was insufficient and I never regained confidence into the shoulder until it got surgically fixed.
The problem with rehab is that you’re strengthening the support structure of the shoulder without addressing the reason why it’s unstable (which is often a torn labrum). So when you end up “testing” your shoulder before returning to play, you’re extremely cautious and it’s hard to explain but you always “ready” your shoulder for impact or whatever exercise you’re doing, there’s nothing “unexpected” that happens to it during this time which makes it appear properly rehabbed. In a game situation after returning from injury, you’ll also be “ready” for most impacts or movements so the shoulder still feels mostly fine. However, a slight unexpected movement/impact where your shoulder is not “ready” was the reason for most of the times I re-separated my shoulder before surgery and it looks to be the same with Norris.
They really should have just opted for surgery the first time around especially with this wasted season. I’m not sure who ended up making the final decision not to perform surgery but we can clearly see it was the wrong one. It’s really not that invasive and I found rehab easier and quicker after surgery than when all I did was rehab.
The problem with rehab is that you’re strengthening the support structure of the shoulder without addressing the reason why it’s unstable (which is often a torn labrum). So when you end up “testing” your shoulder before returning to play, you’re extremely cautious and it’s hard to explain but you always “ready” your shoulder for impact or whatever exercise you’re doing, there’s nothing “unexpected” that happens to it during this time which makes it appear properly rehabbed. In a game situation after returning from injury, you’ll also be “ready” for most impacts or movements so the shoulder still feels mostly fine. However, a slight unexpected movement/impact where your shoulder is not “ready” was the reason for most of the times I re-separated my shoulder before surgery and it looks to be the same with Norris.
They really should have just opted for surgery the first time around especially with this wasted season. I’m not sure who ended up making the final decision not to perform surgery but we can clearly see it was the wrong one. It’s really not that invasive and I found rehab easier and quicker after surgery than when all I did was rehab.
Tnuoc Alucard
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There was a theory making the rounds Monday the club had “rushed him back”, but that couldn’t be further from the truth.
Norris, Dorion and the medical staff were in lockstep with the route that was taken in his recovery.
“Ultimately, it’s his decision as the player, and he talked to a surgeon in the States. The guy had done his surgery before and his thought was that he’d rehab it and there would be a legitimate chance that he wouldn’t re-injure it. That ended up not being the case,”
ottawasun.com
Norris, Dorion and the medical staff were in lockstep with the route that was taken in his recovery.
“Ultimately, it’s his decision as the player, and he talked to a surgeon in the States. The guy had done his surgery before and his thought was that he’d rehab it and there would be a legitimate chance that he wouldn’t re-injure it. That ended up not being the case,”
GARRIOCH: Need for shoulder surgery takes Josh Norris out for the season
The return of Josh Norris to the Ottawa Senators was a short-lived one.
ottawasun.com
Big Muddy
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- Dec 15, 2019
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Ya, I knew that as well. LOL, there was no "confusion" (good grief), but thanks anyways. A good place to start is to assume that people (including myself) follow the Senators events including the Norris scenario instead of the opposite. For some reason, some people (cough) don't perhaps thinking that they are the only ones with knowledge of situations with something worthwhile to say, etc.
Pierre from Orleans
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Stupid fans. Should start a sorry Dorion chant.
Alf Silfversson
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- Jun 8, 2011
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If a centerman can't take a faceoff, he's not ready. Don't play him until he's 100%. If that means surgery, well, sorry Josh but you're gonna have to wait.
If this was the Cup finals I'd support letting the player make that call, but in a season where we're essentially playing out the string it is not worth it.
You can call it rushing back, or letting the player decide when he plays, or whatever but he just wasn't ready to play.
Norris is young and with surgery and rehab he should be fine next season. His game is underrated by some, he is a 1st line centre with good defensive awareness.
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It's hilarious watching the guys on "Coming in Hot" saying it's just an unfortunate development with no one to blame yet Jason York(and Bobby Ryan)go on to make a great case for why there actually is a lot of blame to go around.
They say players will lie about how they feel to get back to the ice ASAP and that York himself ended his career by coming back too quickly and ruining his knee.
Like, it seems pretty damn clear to me in cases like this that surgery is the only real way to avoid long-term issues yet they just let a 22 year-old kid who just wants to play get back into the lineup early? He can't even take faceoffs yet you don't believe he'll get hurt by falling or taking a simple hit?
Ridiculous.
They say players will lie about how they feel to get back to the ice ASAP and that York himself ended his career by coming back too quickly and ruining his knee.
Like, it seems pretty damn clear to me in cases like this that surgery is the only real way to avoid long-term issues yet they just let a 22 year-old kid who just wants to play get back into the lineup early? He can't even take faceoffs yet you don't believe he'll get hurt by falling or taking a simple hit?
Ridiculous.
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Whether he was rushed or simply allowed to play according to his wishes doesn’t matter. The Sens knew he wasn’t healthy enough for draws, clearly not 100%, and still put him in harm’s way.
The Sens control lineup decisions. They could have said, « you’re not ready yet Josh » and given it more time. After more rehab they could have said « man, you still can’t take draws, maybe we should go back to the drawing board on the surgery option ». If he still didn’t want surgery they could have told him he’d sit out until he was ready.
Sometimes people in a professional role have to have difficult discussions with their clients or employees. Sometimes you have to convince them to come to the light. Sometimes you have to be the adult in the room and tell these young men with invincibility complexes that they need to think about their future and protect their investment. Hopefully they had those conversations.
Whether or not they did, the result was a failure which could negatively impact Norris’ preparation for 2023-2024.
It’s the same situation as last season with Pinto.
It is embarrassing to pretend there is nothing the Sens could have done differently and this was completely out of their control.
The Sens control lineup decisions. They could have said, « you’re not ready yet Josh » and given it more time. After more rehab they could have said « man, you still can’t take draws, maybe we should go back to the drawing board on the surgery option ». If he still didn’t want surgery they could have told him he’d sit out until he was ready.
Sometimes people in a professional role have to have difficult discussions with their clients or employees. Sometimes you have to convince them to come to the light. Sometimes you have to be the adult in the room and tell these young men with invincibility complexes that they need to think about their future and protect their investment. Hopefully they had those conversations.
Whether or not they did, the result was a failure which could negatively impact Norris’ preparation for 2023-2024.
It’s the same situation as last season with Pinto.
It is embarrassing to pretend there is nothing the Sens could have done differently and this was completely out of their control.
swiftwin
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- Jul 26, 2005
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Surgery is a very intrusive procedure. I don't blame the player for wanting to try every avenue possible before resorting to surgery. It's as simple as "he didn't want surgery because he wanted to return to the lineup as fast as possible". Forcing a player to have surgery against their wishes is an ugly road to take.
This is what I can't wrap my head around. I don't think people are being "arm-chair doctors" by questioning it.
Hockey is not a sport where you can attempt to isolate movements to protect a joint. Someone is going to rail you into the boards, shoulder-first.
The fallacy is that Norris had some injury that allowed his shoulder to get plastered into the boards but did not allow for faceoffs. You simply don't put a player in that position unless it's like game 7 of a playoff series. We are in the middle of a mean-nothing, throw-away regular season. Total garbage judgement shown by management.
Pretty much this.
It doesn't matter if Giroux or someone else who is good on faceoffs is on the wing. It doesn't make sense to have Norris come back if faceoffs compromise his shoulder. Regardless of what he says or feels, Norris clearly isn't at 100% if he can't take faceoffs without pain.
Surgery isn't an easy option to accept. It's always risky when you literally cut someone open to repair something because you can have post-surgical complications, you can have setbacks during recovery, and you will have a loss of quality of life in the interim. You guys just say "he should have had surgery" like you walk down to the surgery store and pick up a surgery before going out for lunch. There's a lot to consider to make that decision and even the most simple surgeries carry risks.
He spoke to 5 doctors and 2 surgeons, got multiple opinions on his injury and had a care team looking after his long-term wellbeing. They weren't shooting him up with painkillers and throwing him out there to continue mangling his shoulder.
My guess is that they would have continued keeping him out of the lineup for as long as the team was doing well. But then the Sens lost a couple of games and the team got desperate.
I'm not in any way an apologist, which is a term I despise btw.
But I haven't gone out of my way to criticize the team for the past 5 years, like some here have. Nor have I chosen to flimsily make up scandals, even pointing out on many occasions that there's enough content to legitimately criticize the team without needing to make shit up.
I posted that information because it was interesting.
Mendes is regarded rather highly in these parts for balanced journalism. You can choose to read his article or not. That's your choice. You can choose to continue to remain you, which in my view is ignorant of reality and go on posting about something that you really don't know much about
Agent Zuuuub
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- Jan 2, 2015
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who cares about surgery. he couldn't take faceoffs. how does that indicate he's ready?
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
I agree with this. The human element here is huge. There is something ominous about surgery to some people and just being put under carries risk. I'd be the type to want to try rehab first too.
When I destroyed my leg/ankle playing hockey, the first thing that popped in to my head after the paramedics arrived and laughing gas started flowing was that I knew I had to have surgery and was going to have to deal with the anxiety and rehab. It was all as awful as I anticipated, if not worse.
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