Player Discussion Josh Norris C 6’1” - Part 2

[DaveMatthew]

Players can take themselves off the roster at anytime, if they don't feel 100% or whatever level they feel comfortable with, IF the think there is a good chance at re injuring themself.

We've seen goaltenders pull themselves from games, and you don't see the coach forcing them back in the crease.

To suggest that a team, knowing there is a high risk of re injuring a player, by putting them back into action is ludicrous.

Norris listened to whatever the training staff told him (no one on this site knows what that was) he knew how he felt after participating in full contact practice for weeks, and decided on his own to return to the line up.

100% on Norris.

Okay.

You have a center, who the coach admits is not healthy enough to take a faceoff, and you let him play in a full-speed NHL game. Surprise! He's injured in game 2.

Smart.

 

[DJB]

What a bunch of dumbasses. We seriously have THE worst medical and training staff.

When he couldn’t take a face off that was the serious red flag.

Dumb dumb dumb

 

[BankStreetParade]

It's obviously super disappointing to see him a) have season-ending surgery after being off on the IR since the start of the year and b) for it to happen again after last year with Pinto. What I don't understand is why people are so quick to judge this situation without any of the additional context needed. No one knows who he saw to get cleared, what the medical consultations looked like, what led to this decision, why they made the rehab/rest decision in the first place, etc.

The criticisms also seem to disregard the fact that Norris, ultimately, has autonomy over his body and final choice on medical decisions that impact his health. Criticizing the organization is certainly within your purview in this instance but some of you guys make it sound like Dorion & Co. were looking over Norris' medical records and making the final medical decision themselves.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

The Eichel situation is a good comparison. In that one, Buffalo tried to force the athlete to accept the treatment plan that they and their doctors wanted. In this scenario, Norris was allowed to choose, so he has no reason to be bitter towards the club. This sucks, but respecting the athlete's wishes and letting him try to rehab was the right call. It did no further damage, and the recovery timeline (season over, back for camp next September) ends up being the same.

 

[Senscore]

The idea that this was inevitable because the team has to let a guy they invested almost $50 million in do whatever he wants is insane.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Someone should get this thread on the main boards. We need more doctors.

 

[GCK]

Norris tried to rehab, it didn't take and now he needs to have surgery. This isn't on Norris or the org, surgery was going to kill his season even back at the end of October. I think this was handled fine by both the player and team.

 

[DaveMatthew]

It's obviously super disappointing to see him a) have season-ending surgery after being off on the IR since the start of the year and b) for it to happen again after last year with Pinto. What I don't understand is why people are so quick to judge this situation without any of the additional context needed. No one knows who he saw to get cleared, what the medical consultations looked like, what led to this decision, why they made the rehab/rest decision in the first place, etc.

The criticisms also seem to disregard the fact that Norris, ultimately, has autonomy over his body and final choice on medical decisions that impact his health. Criticizing the organization is certainly within your purview in this instance but some of you guys make it sound like Dorion & Co. were looking over Norris' medical records and making the final medical decision themselves.

The criticism stems from the fact that the team was pretty up-front about him not being fully healthy. DJ said he wasn't able to take faceoffs. And yet, he was dressed in a season where we are out of contention.

And surprise surprise, he's re-injured 2 games in.

It'd be one thing if they thought he was fully healthy and had no limitations. But they were up front that that was not the case.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Bad look for Dorion and Smith here.

Wanting to push for wins means more than anything else I guess; Health of players, .. State of the roster moving forward.. all come 2nd.
The depths of disappointment with these jokers knows no bounds

 

[Masked]

Like why cant dorion be bounced by the board and have young ryan bowness keep the gm box warm till summer

Because it's not about keeping the GM box warm. That does very little. It is about rebuilding the entire organization. You need someone that can come in and restructure the scouting staffs, the coaching staffs and figure out why the medical staff has allowed situations like Pinto and Norris to happen.

Bowness would still have the same people giving him advice as Dorion has.

Assen na yo!

 

[Slippy]

If he had got the surgery after the initial injury he would have lost this season anyway, right?

So Norris and the team decided to try rehab, but ultimately it was not affective enough.

I am disappointed he won't play anymore this year, but blaming the team's medical staff seems inaccurate.

 

[swiftwin]

It's obviously super disappointing to see him a) have season-ending surgery after being off on the IR since the start of the year and b) for it to happen again after last year with Pinto. What I don't understand is why people are so quick to judge this situation without any of the additional context needed. No one knows who he saw to get cleared, what the medical consultations looked like, what led to this decision, why they made the rehab/rest decision in the first place, etc.

The criticisms also seem to disregard the fact that Norris, ultimately, has autonomy over his body and final choice on medical decisions that impact his health. Criticizing the organization is certainly within your purview in this instance but some of you guys make it sound like Dorion & Co. were looking over Norris' medical records and making the final medical decision themselves.

DING DING DING DING

So many entitled shits in this thread who think they know better than Josh and his medical staff. It's his body, and his medical experts.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

DING DING DING DING

So many entitled shits in this thread who think they know better than Josh and his medical staff. It's his body, and his medical experts.

READ THIS: (from the link I provided above)

This should also theoretically give players more of a say in what happens to their bodies, however, this is not the case given that players cannot opt to have another course of treatment instead. While it may provide teams the opportunity to stop players from receiving unproven or unscientific treatments, it does not give players the agency to choose what happens to their own bodies. Sports is one of the only fields in the world where management has this level of involvement in their employees’ bodily choices.

If players were able to take their second opinion back to their team’s doctor for medical review, and should that doctor disagree, then take that ruling to a third independent medical professional to issue a binding ruling that one be one thing, but the fact that players cannot make choices for their bodies enters an ethical grey zone.

Teams also worry about the short-term impacts on their players while they are able to play, and may not worry as much about the long-term concerns post-playing career. However, players have to think about what happens to them following their time in hockey. Nobody wants to struggle down the road when they want to just enjoy their retirement but are languishing in pain from short-term medical thinking earlier in their career.

Team doctors are also not independent entities. They are paid by the teams, not the players, and as such have an implicit bias to follow the will and direction of the team’s management when making decisions. And while doctors have a duty to do no harm when engaged in a doctor-patient relationship, a 2016 study by Harvard University found this to be an issue in the NFL, where they called the relationship between team doctors, management and player wellness to be a “undeniable conflict of interest”. This study recommended that team doctors be jointly paid by both the players and the team so as to avoid this conflict. As well, it recommended that perhaps there should be a doctor to advise players as well as a separate doctor paid by the team to monitor player health for management. While this was a study at the NFL level, the findings absolutely beg the question as to whether athletes in other sports face similar issues.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

I can't believe people are using the "my body my choice" argument to excuse this whole mess.

Yes, he can't be forced to have surgery. NO, they don't have to rush him back to the lineup. They could have let him sit for the season or waited another month or two until he was 100% WHICH HE WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT.

I swear the internet has broken so many minds.

Players can take themselves off the roster at anytime, if they don't feel 100% or whatever level they feel comfortable with, IF the think there is a good chance at re injuring themself.

We've seen goaltenders pull themselves from games, and you don't see the coach forcing them back in the crease.

To suggest that a team, knowing there is a high risk of re injuring a player, by putting them back into action is ludicrous.

Norris listened to whatever the training staff told him (no one on this site knows what that was) he knew how he felt after participating in full contact practice for weeks, and decided on his own to return to the line up.

100% on Norris.

Lol. They did just that, but it's nice to have your contrarian ass back on the boards.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

The idea that this was inevitable because the team has to let a guy they invested almost $50 million in do whatever he wants is insane.

It is but people will twist themselves into pretzels on this board to excuse any blunders this org makes. It's quite pathetic.

 

[swiftwin]

If he had got the surgery after the initial injury he would have lost this season anyway, right?

So Norris and the team decided to try rehab, but ultimately it was not affective enough.

I am disappointed he won't play anymore this year, but blaming the team's medical staff seems inaccurate.

Bingo.

It sounded like surgery was always on the table, even as recently as this month. Who knows, he may have reinjured it if he had waited until next season too. We were probably getting close to the point where if he didn't try it out now, the eventual surgery may have started to impact training for next season.

 

[senswon]

Because it's not about keeping the GM box warm. That does very little. It is about rebuilding the entire organization. You need someone that can come in and restructure the scouting staffs, the coaching staffs and figure out why the medical staff has allowed situations like Pinto and Norris to happen.

Bowness would still have the same people giving him advice as Dorion has.

Assen na yo!

None of the things you're talking about are happening until the sale is over. In the meantime it's damage control for a zombie gm that's able to make more potentially damaging decisions// moves that hurt us after he's gone and frankly i trust bowness' eyeballs more than dorions itchy trigger finger at this point.
Trying to be pragmatic as the wheels are coming off. Something has to budge.

 

[swiftwin]

Yes, he can't be forced to have surgery. NO, they don't have to rush him back to the lineup. They could have let him sit for the season or waited another month or two until he was 100% WHICH HE WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT.

We don't know if he could ever reach 100% without surgery. Could have waited until next season, and the same result could have happened. It sounds like surgery was very seriously considered when the injury first happened.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Norris tried to rehab, it didn't take and now he needs to have surgery. This isn't on Norris or the org, surgery was going to kill his season even back at the end of October. I think this was handled fine by both the player and team.

This is idiotic.

"Oh the rehab didn't take so let's just let him play and potentially make the injury worse which will lead to surgery and possibly chronic long-term shoulder issues for our top center who is here for 8 years."

Good god.

 

[swiftwin]

It is but people will twist themselves into pretzels on this board to excuse any blunders this org makes. It's quite pathetic.

You're the one twisting yourself into a pretzel to blame the opinion of multiple medical experts who are not part of the organization on the organization.

 

[BondraTime]

If he had got the surgery after the initial injury he would have lost this season anyway, right?

So Norris and the team decided to try rehab, but ultimately it was not affective enough.

I am disappointed he won't play anymore this year, but blaming the team's medical staff seems inaccurate.

Nothing wring with the teams medical staff, nor in him not getting surgery (that he should have, but that's besides the point).

Having him come back, at the absolute bare minimum ~3 months after an injury like he sustained, in a season where the team is out of the playoffs, without a doubt, and in which we don't need to risk any kind of further injury, is the definition of negligent. It was a self-serving negligence.

No doubt Norris wants to play, of course he does.

The team, it's GM, coach and trainers, also have the ability to say "Josh, it's a lost season, we think you should rehab your shoulder for the rest of the year, and come back to start 2023 in 100% shape"

Our GM publicly said they don't see themselves as sellers. He's fighting for his life in the NHL.

The coach literally stated Norris isn't healthy enough for faceoffs, as a center. He's also fighting for his life, but I don't place blame on DJ here.

If a guy, who has a history of problems with his shoulder, has a very serious injury and is out for months, isn't 100% (IE he can't take faceoffs...) don't allow him to play in a season that has already been lost.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

This is idiotic.

"Oh the rehab didn't take so let's just let him play and potentially make the injury worse which will lead to surgery and possibly chronic long-term shoulder issues for our top center who is here for 8 years."

Good god.

chronic long term shoulder injury for a player whose main weapon is his shot and makes 8 mill for the next 7 years*

 

[Larionov]

So let's say we force him to take the surgery option back in late October. Now you have an angry player who wasn't given a voice in his own medical care, and his season is still likely over. The only difference is that he would have been back ready to play by late April as opposed to July as will be the case now.

By going the rehab route we listened to our player, gave him every chance to play this season, and he now heads to surgery knowing that it is the only possible option.

The only way that pressing our case on surgery would have made sense is if we were a strong Cup contender, and getting surgery in October might have meant getting him back in time for round two of the playoffs. Even then, though, I'm not sure we want to do that. Again, Buffalo gave a master class in how NOT to deal with an injured player. We gave our player the freedom to choose his own path for care and treatment, and now he knows that the club has his back no matter what. Disappointing outcome, absolutely, but I'm fine with the process.

 

[DrEasy]

Desperation move backfired... HARD. What a surprise!

 

[Alf Silfversson]

This is 100% on Norris. Not the organization.

The organization cannot force him to get surgery.

Any other narrative is hogwash.

But if your #1 C can't take faceoffs you scratch him. Period. Players will always want to play. They aren't always rational about it and it lies with the team to do the best thing for the organization and its players.

This sucks for Norris and hopefully he's 100% by training camp.