Player Discussion Josh Norris C 6’1” - Part 2

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I just think the Batherson and Tkachuk contracts kind of screw us in terms of negotiations. Tkachuk is overpaid by a bit, Batherson is underpaid by a bit, and then Norris will have to get paid big because of those contracts, even though he is not necessarily better or worse, just different.

Batherson should be making 6.5, so he is underpaid by about a million and a half. Tkachuk is overpaid by about 1 million, and he should be in around 7.5 instead of 8.

Which means Norris in a perfect world would probably net about 7 million long term, but now I am concerned he will demand close to 8.

Batherson must feel like crap if he ends up outscoring both Tkachuk and Norris next season while making almost 3 million dollars less per year. Hoping that does not cause any locker room issues.

Yea, Tkachuk situation really screwed us. Should be making no more than 7.5 and even that's quite generous. Norris can literally demand 8 million and still say he's not highest paid. I think he settles in at 7.5. If Dorion gets him at 7 that would be amazing, because I think it will weigh in Stutzle extending at 7.5 too.

8.25 Brady. 8 Chabot. 7.5 Norris. 7.5 Stutzle. 7.25 Fiala. 7 Sanderson. 5 Batherson. 5 Zub. 5 Brown. 4 Pinto. 4 Formenton.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

It's hard to find a comparable on the team for Norris. He's not as good as Batherson in my opinion, but probably a better player than Brady. I'd say 6-7 is fair.

We're really putting all of our chips on these guys getting better, though. There's a world where we spend near the cap with this core and all we're left with is a bubble team. I do hope we continue to see an evolution in his game after he's signed a big contract.

You can point to the hold-out being a reason for it, but I don't think Brady has looked like a first line, 8 million player this year. I've said it before - it's not just about spending the money, it's about spending it on the right guys.

That's what worries me, as well. It feels like we're trending towards a bubble team status, which is basically what we had before the tear down. These kids had better have one hell of a lot more potential within them to go beyond what the previous core had....and I'm not convinced they have that in them to do it.

 

[Sensinitis]

That's what worries me, as well. It feels like we're trending towards a bubble team status, which is basically what we had before the tear down. These kids had better have one hell of a lot more potential within them to go beyond what the previous core had....and I'm not convinced they have that in them to do it.

Our forward group is looking WAYYY more promising than the previous core

Stone was amazing but other than that everyone was wildly inconsistent. Even Stone was underwhelming during our run albeit he was probably injured (I’m not sure if that was ever confirmed).

The previous core was all Karlsson…

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Our forward group is looking WAYYY more promising than the previous core

Stone was amazing but other than that everyone was wildly inconsistent. Even Stone was underwhelming during our run albeit he was probably injured (I’m not sure if that was ever confirmed).

The previous core was all Karlsson…

How I feel too.

Remember, Stone wasn't elite until after the 2017 playoff run. I'd argue Tkachuk and Batherson are both better than pre 2018 Stone, and Norris and Stutzle should become better too.

 

[bert]

Our forward group is looking WAYYY more promising than the previous core

Stone was amazing but other than that everyone was wildly inconsistent. Even Stone was underwhelming during our run albeit he was probably injured (I’m not sure if that was ever confirmed).

The previous core was all Karlsson…

Stone was absolutely injured he couldn't even walk.

How I feel too.

Remember, Stone wasn't elite until after the 2017 playoff run. I'd argue Tkachuk and Batherson are both better than pre 2018 Stone, and Norris and Stutzle should become better too.

This is false.

He was elite right from his rookie year. He was the main reason they went on the Hamburglar run. No forward on this team has performed at that level yet. Expecting any or all of them to be a top 5 player in their positions is wishful thinking. It's promising but man there is some strange revisionist history about players after they leave here.

That being said Norris looks great, Joseph's speed is making some new room for him out there and he is thriving.

 

[Sensinitis]

Stone was absolutely injured he couldn't even walk. He was elite right from his rookie year too. He was the main reason they went on the Hamburglar run.

I love Stone but he wasn’t elite right away. He was very good as a 60 pt guy for a couple of years but really reached elite level in 17-18. For me he was 3rd in main reasons behind Karlsson and Hamburglar for that run. He did score those big goals against Pittsburgh and the one to seal the deal against Philly though

 

[bert]

I love Stone but he wasn’t elite right away. He was very good as a 60 pt guy for a couple of years but really reached elite level in 17-18. For me he was 3rd in main reasons behind Karlsson and Hamburglar for that run. He did score those big goals against Pittsburgh and the one to seal the deal against Philly though

He scored over a ppg in the second half of the season in his rookie year leading the league in takeaways per game. Playing selke level two way game. Your description is not accurate.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Batherson should be making 6.5, so he is underpaid by about a million and a half. Tkachuk is overpaid by about 1 million, and he should be in around 7.5 instead of 8.

That doesn't make any sense.

I think everyone acknowledges Drake is the better player and has higher upside. Like there's no debate right now.

So how is Drake fair value 6.5 and Brady 7.5?

 

[Wallet Inspector]

If Norris is a 60+ point center, then 7 million is fair, especially since he is quite solid defensively as well.

 

[Crosside]

Norris, I see him in the category of Kreider, Nelson and Manguipane. Lots off goal but not too much assist. 6.5 - 7m Maybe let Calgary fix the price

 

[Sensinitis]

He scored over a ppg in the second half of the season in his rookie year leading the league in takeaways per game. Playing selke level two way game. Your description is not accurate.

Of course my description is accurate, you’re exactly proving my point. He lacked the consistency elite players have until he achieved that level in 17-18. His defensive game was elite since he broke into the league, agreed.

 

[bert]

Of course my description is accurate, you’re exactly proving my point. He lacked the consistency elite players have until he achieved that level in 17-18. His defensive game was elite since he broke into the league, agreed.

He got limited time that season at the start because he was a rookie. 64 points in 80 games as a rookie is the opposite of inconsistent. He simply just got better and more icetime. yes he got better in 18 but he was also better prior to that season than you are suggesting.

 

[Ice-Tray]

don't know what Dorion was thinking on holding off on contract talks with this guy after Brady was done. Likely could have got Norris at that time around 7X6.5-7.0 now we are looking at something over 8m....

No dude, that’s not how it works. Have you forgotten who Norris’s agent is? Do you really think we could have ‘just signed him’ earlier?

They have had chats all season, but there was zero chance that Norris was going to be signed on the cheap earlier in the season. That’s pure fan fiction to bash Dorion obviously.

I expect Norris to sign for close to Brady’s cash per year, and he’ll be worth his contract, which is all we can really hope for as fans.

 

[TheDebater]

That doesn't make any sense.

I think everyone acknowledges Drake is the better player and has higher upside. Like there's no debate right now.

So how is Drake fair value 6.5 and Brady 7.5?

Of course it does not make sense to you, but if you put your prejudice aside for a moment, you will realize some of us think much more highly of Tkachuk than you do.

We have had this argument before, being "more skilled" does not automatically mean better player or deserving of a bigger contract.

In my personal opinion, Tkachuk will be much much more valuable of a player down the road than Batherson, because Tkachuk has much more to offer when he is not scoring...unfortunately the same cannot be said about Batherson as he is almost invisible when he is not putting up points.

Unless Batherson starts consistently putting up point per game seasons, then it is going to be tough to argue that he is worth more than Brady.

 

[Ice-Tray]

That doesn't make any sense.

I think everyone acknowledges Drake is the better player and has higher upside. Like there's no debate right now.

So how is Drake fair value 6.5 and Brady 7.5?

Not me. Drake is skilled, but hockey is about so much more than that.

Brady has a ton of skill as well, and is more valuable to the team than either Drake or Josh. He’s being compensated for the whole package. The boys will get theirs as well.

 

[OD99]

Of course it does not make sense to you, but if you put your prejudice aside for a moment, you will realize some of us think much more highly of Tkachuk than you do.

We have had this argument before, being "more skilled" does not automatically mean better player or deserving of a bigger contract.

In my personal opinion, Tkachuk will be much much more valuable of a player down the road than Batherson, because Tkachuk has much more to offer when he is not scoring...unfortunately the same cannot be said about Batherson as he is almost invisible when he is not putting up points.

Unless Batherson starts consistently putting up point per game seasons, then it is going to be tough to argue that he is worth more than Brady.

Disagree and dont think slamming Drake makes Brady seem any better.

They are both very good and important but let's not forget how great Drake was before his injury - he was straight up dominant and was well over PPG. I don't see that changing any time soon as his skills and compete are high end.

His physicality is underrated as well IMO and don't think he goes invisible if he doesnt score.

Lastly he gets a full pass the rest of this season from me as those high ankle sprains take a long time to heal and recover from.

 

[bicboi64]

I heavily disagree with anyone that says Brady is more valuable than Drake.

Brady will never be an elite offensive threat the way Drake already is. Some might make the argument that Brady is the kind of guy you want in the playoffs, but the issue is, guys like Batherson that can score are the ones that help you get the wins to qualify. Drake is also better than Brady defensively. On a team that has a -40 goal differential, Batherson is a positive player while playing the same tough minutes as Brady.

Hockey is complex, and I think there's room to recognize that Batherson is underpaid while Brady is overpaid while still liking both.

Anyhow, I hope Norris is paid accordingly and doesn't fleece Dorion. A 7-8 year deal for $7.5 million is fair for both sides imo.

 

[Ice-Tray]

!

I heavily disagree with anyone that says Brady is more valuable than Drake.

Brady will never be an elite offensive threat the way Drake already is. Some might make the argument that Brady is the kind of guy you want in the playoffs, but the issue is, guys like Batherson that can score are the ones that help you get the wins to qualify. Drake is also better than Brady defensively. On a team that has a -40 goal differential, Batherson is a positive player while playing the same tough minutes as Brady.

Hockey is complex, and I think there's room to recognize that Batherson is underpaid while Brady is overpaid while still liking both.

Anyhow, I hope Norris is paid accordingly and doesn't fleece Dorion. A 7-8 year deal for $7.5 million is fair for both sides imo.

I don’t think any team in the league would take Batherson over Brady if they could take one of the two off the roster. Not even Dubas.

Brady is the straw that stirs the drink here, and that affects everyone on the team.

In my opinion the only person on the team that compares in importance to our team as Brady, is Chabot. Two generals, the rest are soldiers of varying ranks.

 

[sens13]

!

I don’t think any team in the league would take Batherson over Brady if they could take one of the two off the roster. Not even Dubas.

Brady is the straw that stirs the drink here, and that affects everyone on the team.

In my opinion the only person on the team that compares in importance to our team as Brady, is Chabot. Two generals, the rest are soldiers of varying ranks.

Every team in the league would take Drake and Brady. It's not even a debate.

 

[Micklebot]

Of course my description is accurate, you’re exactly proving my point. He lacked the consistency elite players have until he achieved that level in 17-18. His defensive game was elite since he broke into the league, agreed.

Put Stones performance into the context of the league,

This year there are ~45 guys scoring easily over a point per game, Stone's rookie year there were ~8. Stone was 30th OA in scoring and 37th in pts per game (30+ games), Tkachuck is currently 91st and 104 per game, Norris 118, 84th per game, Stützle 129th and 155 per game, and Batherson 170th and 36th per game.

Batherson is the only one that gets into the top 30 when to go per game but he didn't have the selke caliber play to go along with it.

 

[JD1]

Stone was absolutely injured he couldn't even walk.

This is false.

He was elite right from his rookie year. He was the main reason they went on the Hamburglar run. No forward on this team has performed at that level yet. Expecting any or all of them to be a top 5 player in their positions is wishful thinking. It's promising but man there is some strange revisionist history about players after they leave here.

That being said Norris looks great, Joseph's speed is making some new room for him out there and he is thriving.

You used the phrase top 5 at their position and revisionist. We all watch hockey. We all have opinions. Mine is that at no point was Mark Stone a top 5 winger in hockey. Mark Stone had some very good stretches. He had a lot of injuries and a lot of time where he wasn't very effective after returning from injury.

I don't recall hearing anything about Stone being banged up in the 2017 playoff run. Wouldn't surprise me though, as I noted above he's slow to return to full productivity after an injury.

Even the playoffs against Montreal. I was embarrassed by the phrase micro fracture. That's called a sore wrist for most.

I seem to recall that the kickoff point for the Hamburglar run was a west coast trip with Zibanejad getting the better of Thornton, Kopitar and Getzlaf with Ottawa getting 5 of 6 points

 

[bert]

You used the phrase top 5 at their position and revisionist. We all watch hockey. We all have opinions. Mine is that at no point was Mark Stone a top 5 winger in hockey. Mark Stone had some very good stretches. He had a lot of injuries and a lot of time where he wasn't very effective after returning from injury.

I don't recall hearing anything about Stone being banged up in the 2017 playoff run. Wouldn't surprise me though, as I noted above he's slow to return to full productivity after an injury.

Even the playoffs against Montreal. I was embarrassed by the phrase micro fracture. That's called a sore wrist for most.

I seem to recall that the kickoff point for the Hamburglar run was a west coast trip with Zibanejad getting the better of Thornton, Kopitar and Getzlaf with Ottawa getting 5 of 6 points

You're a noted Stone hater though. Which only began after he was traded. This entire post proves it. Your opinion contradicts every statistical category including him being up for the selke. Everyone knows he was hurt in 2017. This post is terrible overall. Not even worth responding to. Pretty tired of the tendency of so many sens fans on this site that flip the switch on a player after they leave. It's very petty.

 

[Micklebot]

You used the phrase top 5 at their position and revisionist. We all watch hockey. We all have opinions. Mine is that at no point was Mark Stone a top 5 winger in hockey. Mark Stone had some very good stretches. He had a lot of injuries and a lot of time where he wasn't very effective after returning from injury.

I don't recall hearing anything about Stone being banged up in the 2017 playoff run. Wouldn't surprise me though, as I noted above he's slow to return to full productivity after an injury.

Even the playoffs against Montreal. I was embarrassed by the phrase micro fracture. That's called a sore wrist for most.

I seem to recall that the kickoff point for the Hamburglar run was a west coast trip with Zibanejad getting the better of Thornton, Kopitar and Getzlaf with Ottawa getting 5 of 6 points

Idk about top 5 in his position, there's a lot of subjectivity to a claim like that, but prior to what someone else was calling his breakout year in 2017-18, he had the 8th most points (tied with Marner for 7th in per game) and 10th in Goals (tied for 13th per game) among RW from 14-15 to 16-17 while playing a pretty well rounded game. The top 3 producing RW for those years was pretty established with Kane, Tarasenko and Kucherov being ahead of the pack in scoring, after that there was Wheeler then a dozen other RW in the same area as Stone. Don't recall if Stamkos had transitioned to wing or was still playing center at that point.

Anyways, it's getting off topic here, but to bring it back, I think we'd be very lucky if Norris and Batherson become better players than Stone, I'm not sure either is trending any better than him so far, but they aren't far off. If Batherson, Norris, Tkachuk and Stu end up anywhere close to as good as Stone was for us and since leaving, we're going to be a very strong team up front

 

[Loach]

That's what worries me, as well. It feels like we're trending towards a bubble team status, which is basically what we had before the tear down. These kids had better have one hell of a lot more potential within them to go beyond what the previous core had....and I'm not convinced they have that in them to do it.

I said it before...Dorion is building the same team as before. A couple really good guys, a couple ok guys, a bunch of depth guys of middling ability and some trash. Hope for the playoffs, anything can happen. He doesn't know anything else.

 

[Sensinitis]

He got limited time that season at the start because he was a rookie. 64 points in 80 games as a rookie is the opposite of inconsistent. He simply just got better and more icetime. yes he got better in 18 but he was also better prior to that season than you are suggesting.

He also put up two other 60pt pace seasons after that one, with more prime time minutes… His rookie year form is what he settled in as for a couple of years. So, what am I suggesting? My opinion is that he was always a 1st liner but only became an elite one in 17-18. Do you disagree with that?