Player Discussion Josh Norris (C) 6’-1” - Part 3

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

LTIR requires a 10 game absence. Seems we’ll likely be 20% there after tomorrow’s game.

Should definitely have been put on LTIR to get Pinto in and give us time.

It's now been 23 days since:

"GM Pierre Dorion provided the update on Wednesday, adding that Norris would be taking part in camp but would wear the yellow sweater because the team is being "extra cautious" while Norris recovers from off-season surgery. Dorion added that the concern is not serious, and if the season started tomorrow, Norris would play."

 

[bert]

LTIR requires a 10 game absence. Seems we’ll likely be 20% there after tomorrow’s game.

Should definitely have been put on LTIR to get Pinto in and give us time.

Its pretty nuts that wasnt immediately the decision and get Pinto into the line up. With the way Joseph is playing teams will be lining up to take him. Thats why the LTIR was always the play because other options and opportunities could have opened up over the 10 game period.

Then you take into account Grieg looks absolutely ready, he was distributing the puck incredibly well game 1. He is a third line C at this level and I think Pinto is ready for 2 C duties.

 

[Beech]

Its pretty nuts that wasnt immediately the decision and get Pinto into the line up. With the way Joseph is playing teams will be lining up to take him. Thats why the LTIR was always the play because other options and opportunities could have opened up over the 10 game period.

Then you take into account Grieg looks absolutely ready, he was distributing the puck incredibly well game 1. He is a third line C at this level and I think Pinto is ready for 2 C duties.

Was this not the issue last year? Pinto in line 2 C was not exactly an overwhelming success!

Many on here argued that the Cat and Bat. had poor seasons because of Pinto's inability to be a #2c.

anyway...

 

[OD99]

I am not panicking but I am now uneasy with how this is playing out.

It is very, very curious. He can and has practiced fully for the majority of camp but still isn't ready? The reference to him not being mentally ready is beginning to look a bit more serious as well. How gun shy is he?

My hope is he came in ready to go, had a tweak and it is taking longer than expected for him to get over it.

The idea that he is out there taking full contact in practice but something is still wrong with the shoulder is the confusing part. Either he is healthy enough or he isn't, no?

Best case scenario is it is mix of conditioning and feeling mentally comfortable being in a game situation.

 

[Micklebot]

Was this not the issue last year? Pinto in line 2 C was not exactly an overwhelming success!

Many on here argued that the Cat and Bat. had poor seasons because of Pinto's inability to be a #2c.

anyway...

Pinto was a rookie last year, he's got a year under his belt and we can/should expect some progress from a young player like him.

He was certainly overslotted last year as a 2nd line center, but 2nd line center is where he projects imo, and whether he's ready for that now, or needs more time, he'll be better suiting for it this year than he was last year,

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Just LTIR him already. Need Pinto a player they can trust in the lineup.


Why would they do this when they have Pinto?!.......

Grieg is ready btw. Him in the 3 spot and Pinto in the 2 I'd enough.

Obviously a fully healthy Norris, with Pinto and Greig would be really nice for this team.
I agree though. I think Greig is ready to contribute at the NHL level and Pinto will be improved from last year, although young players missing camp is often a recipe for a disappointing season. I think they'd be a great duo on the third line but Norris's situation doesn't look promising at the moment.

One has to wonder if Dorion has considered any of this.

 

[vandelay]

To stay in shape his legs arent injured. If he was close he would have played in an exhibition game as he needs reps. I think were not using any deductive reasoning if anyone thinks he is healthy.

How does wearing a contact jersey fit into your deductive reasoning?

 

[bert]

Was this not the issue last year? Pinto in line 2 C was not exactly an overwhelming success!

Many on here argued that the Cat and Bat. had poor seasons because of Pinto's inability to be a #2c.

anyway...

In his rookie NHL season, with a winger who has openly admitted he wasnt putting in an honest effort. Yeah many apologists argued it was Pinto's fault which is absolutely wild. Lets blame the NHL rookie for the two veterans for not playing well. Batherson and Debrincat were the ones who should have been held accountable, they are the veterans its their responsibility to mentor the rookie and carry the load.

Players typically improve on their rookie seasons, its a crazy concept that doesnt seem to get much traction around here. Pinto was coming off a major injury and never played a season longer than 35 games. He is going to be bigger, stronger and more experienced.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Its pretty nuts that wasnt immediately the decision and get Pinto into the line up. With the way Joseph is playing teams will be lining up to take him. Thats why the LTIR was always the play because other options and opportunities could have opened up over the 10 game period.

Then you take into account Grieg looks absolutely ready, he was distributing the puck incredibly well game 1. He is a third line C at this level and I think Pinto is ready for 2 C duties.

I believe they can LTIR a player retroactively to the time they last played a game. If he can't make it in soon that is definitely the play. Pinto is going to need some practice before he gets into games. What a mess this is shaping up to be.

 

[bert]

How does wearing a contact jersey fit into your deductive reasoning?

Id rather go with not playing a game in the last 8 months since surgery. He's been wearing a non contact jersey for 3 weeks.

 

[Micklebot]

Id rather go with not playing a game in the last 8 months since surgery. He's been wearing a non contact jersey for 3 weeks.

I'm not sure I follow how that relates to the decision to wear a non-contact jersey or not.

He had surgery in January, him not playing games immediately after that isn't really relevant to his current health status, the plan was always for him to be rehabbing through the summer.

Now, him not playing any preseason games is different, it's actually relevant information to his current status, but it shows that there's some dissonance; he's not healthy enough to play, but not so bad that he can't take contact in practice.

So, is there a structural issue at play here, is he adapting to the new normal, is he trying to build up strength or get past a mental block? Hard to know what's going on based on what's public, if he certainly wasn't healthy, you'd think he'd be on LTIR already, but then why isn't he practicing in the normal rotations instead of as an extra? There's no clear answer imo.

 

[bert]

I'm not sure I follow how that relates to the decision to wear a non-contact jersey or not.

He had surgery in January, him not playing games immediately after that isn't really relevant to his current health status, the plan was always for him to be rehabbing through the summer.

Now, him not playing any preseason games is different, it's actually relevant information to his current status, but it shows that there's some dissonance; he's not healthy enough to play, but not so bad that he can't take contact in practice.

So, is there a structural issue at play here, is he adapting to the new normal, is he trying to build up strength or get past a mental block? Hard to know what's going on based on what's public, if he certainly wasn't healthy, you'd think he'd be on LTIR already, but then why isn't he practicing in the normal rotations instead of as an extra? There's no clear answer imo.

Fair enough, I just dont think that anyone can say he is healthy because he is wearing a non contact jersey. Actually playing games would suggest he is healthy and not just day to day.

 

[Micklebot]

Fair enough, I just dont think that anyone can say he is healthy because he is wearing a non contact jersey. Actually playing games would suggest he is healthy and not just day to day.

I could see missing a few preseason games while healthy, as you say, he's missed a lot of time, so before he gets back in the lineup, he needs to shake of some rust, get his timing back, but the team was open that he's had some tweaks, which implies not 100%, so here we are, it's not just about getting his timing back.

I'm trying to be optimistic wrt Norris, he should be a big part of this team moving forward, but there clearly more going on than just taking their time to make sure he's 100% here.

 

[Beech]

Pinto was a rookie last year, he's got a year under his belt and we can/should expect some progress from a young player like him.

He was certainly overslotted last year as a 2nd line center, but 2nd line center is where he projects imo, and whether he's ready for that now, or needs more time, he'll be better suiting for it this year than he was last year,

Mick,

you are way more into stats and data acquisition.

was his point productivity not higher in the first half, then the second half last year? I am operating on memory only. It may be inaccurate!! I am hoping you would know better.

But if accurate, it is not an indicator of trend and where he may go?

From memory, it seemed like: media (Sens media) suggested he is a 3c (possibly a 3c plus).. general sports media.. had him as a 3 c.. we, on here (yes I know, not exactly credible) had him as a 3c.

Norris playing on the first line in his first full year was 35 P in 56 games and was 21 years old.
Pinto playing second line was 35 p in 82 games and was 22 years old.

if we see Norris as a 2 C, a small leap of faith is needed to put Pinto in that same tier.

We are where we are.. If Norris does not get better.. Pinto is 2 C and they better get him in ASAP.

 

[Micklebot]

Mick,

you are way more into stats and data acquisition.

was his point productivity not higher in the first half, then the second half last year? I am operating on memory only. It may be inaccurate!! I am hoping you would know better.

But if accurate, it is not an indicator of trend and where he may go?

From memory, it seemed like: media (Sens media) suggested he is a 3c (possibly a 3c plus).. general sports media.. had him as a 3 c.. we, on here (yes I know, not exactly credible) had him as a 3c.

Norris playing on the first line in his first full year was 35 P in 56 games and was 21 years old.
Pinto playing second line was 35 p in 82 games and was 22 years old.

if we see Norris as a 2 C, a small leap of faith is needed to put Pinto in that same tier.

We are where we are.. If Norris does not get better.. Pinto is 2 C and they better get him in ASAP.

Pinto had 17pts in the first 41 games, and 18 in the final 41 games. He did have a really hot start though, with 7 in his first 8 most of which would have been as a 3rd line center since Norris played the first 5 and Brassard I believe was initially slotted in to fill the void.

Pinto scored 20 goals as a rookie center, that's not something a lot of guys have done in the last decade (18 including Pinto on NHL.com, and some are actually wingers mistakenly listed as centers), and none of the guys that did it are third line centers to my eye.

 

[Alex1234]

In his rookie NHL season, with a winger who has openly admitted he wasnt putting in an honest effort. Yeah many apologists argued it was Pinto's fault which is absolutely wild. Lets blame the NHL rookie for the two veterans for not playing well. Batherson and Debrincat were the ones who should have been held accountable, they are the veterans its their responsibility to mentor the rookie and carry the load.

Players typically improve on their rookie seasons, its a crazy concept that doesnt seem to get much traction around here. Pinto was coming off a major injury and never played a season longer than 35 games. He is going to be bigger, stronger and more experienced.

Scored 20 goals as a rookie adjusting to NHL AND to playing vs the 32 to 64 best Cs in the league while watching DBC on his line halfassing his backcheck because he was in dire need of Gingerale.
With a year more of experience I think he would do a superb job but hey we have Vladimir at 5MM$ who played 13min12s for us last game so ...

 

[Norris4Norris]

Report: Senators RFA Shane Pinto leaves Ottawa to return home | TSN

After spending the past few days with the team, Ottawa Senators restricted free agent Shane Pinto has left town, Bruce Garrioch of Postmedia reports.

www.tsn.ca

 

[KnockHobbler]

Fire Dorion, fire dj, fire garrioch, am I missing anyone?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

LTIR requires a 10 game absence. Seems we’ll likely be 20% there after tomorrow’s game.

Should definitely have been put on LTIR to get Pinto in and give us time.

Can they put him on retroactively?

 

[Big Muddy]

The thought has occurred to me that perhaps the Senators undersold the extent of Norris's injury to help create pressure on Pinto to sign. They didn't want to give the Pinto camp any more leverage. It's just a theory (guess).

 

[Micklebot]

The thought has occurred to me that perhaps the Senators undersold the extent of Norris's injury to help create pressure on Pinto to sign. They didn't want to give the Pinto camp any more leverage. It's just a theory (guess).

This hinges on the premise that Norris (and his agent) would be complicit in this act of underselling the extent and not letting Pinto or his agent become aware of the severity. I don't think that's likely, but who knows.

 

[Big Muddy]

This hinges on the premise that Norris (and his agent) would be complicit in this act of underselling the extent and not letting Pinto or his agent become aware of the severity. I don't think that's likely, but who knows.

Would Dorion or the Senators be obliged to tell Norris & his agent about this? Couldn't they just tell Norris to take his time and make sure he's fully healed? I guess you're assuming that Norris would eventually say (publicly) he's healthy I suppose. But, if Norris was having some doubts about his injury, perhaps under those circumstances Dorion could use this tactic. I admit I'm just wondering out loud what happened. Maybe I'm just allowing my imagination to run amok.

 

[Micklebot]

Would Dorion or the Senators be obliged to tell Norris & his agent about this? Couldn't they just tell Norris to take his time and make sure he's fully healed? I guess you're assuming that Norris would eventually say (publicly) he's healthy I suppose. But, if Norris was having some doubts about his injury, perhaps under those circumstances Dorion could use this tactic. I admit I'm just wondering out loud what happened. Maybe I'm just allowing my imagination to run amok.

Maybe im unclear on what you're suggesting, but the doctor would be obliged to disclose everything to Norris, the league and CBA have rules that allow the doctor to disclose Norris' medical info to the team, not the other way around, norris will always have access to his own diagnosis. I imagine his agent would be in the loop because Norris would disclose to him, but that's just an assumption on my part.

 

[Big Muddy]

Maybe im unclear on what you're suggesting, but the doctor would be obliged to disclose everything to Norris, the league and CBA have rules that allow the doctor to disclose Norris' medical info to the team, not the other way around, norris will always have access to his own diagnosis. I imagine his agent would be in the loop because Norris would disclose to him, but that's just an assumption on my part.

Well, yes Norris would be privy to his medical info.

I just wondered if there was a way that Dorion could keep it under wraps that Norris wasn't fully healed from his injury and wasn't expected to return soon thus being able to maintain more leverage on the Pinto camp.

Like you say Norris would know his medical condition and this strategy would also depend on Norris not saying publicly that he was out for the season or a long time. I was just trying to answer your question about whether Norris (& his agent) would have to be complicit. The hypothesis is maybe if Norris was still worried about being fully recovered Dorion could say let's just wait and give this more time and we'll see where you (Norris) are at in a few weeks i.e., no need to make a decision right now and go public with it.

It could just be an overactive imagination at work on my part.

 

[Bileur]

Fire Dorion, fire dj, fire garrioch, am I missing anyone?

Fire KnockHobbler