Kings News: Jonathan Bernier to TML for Matt Frattin, Ben Scrivens, & 2nd ('14 or '15) (pst#276)

[MSSLYNX]

Pretty fair in general but Voracek numbers in Philly are better than Carter's in Philly. .753 vs .744 and i would argue defensive play has to go to Voracek. And off ice attitude too if you believe reports. Not sure how this translate to adding 8th overall and another pick.

Now for the Cup argument, if you say that the deal worked better for LA short-term, i can go along with it. Would have worked better without the Cup too because still not getting full benefits fom the young guys (Couturier + Schenn) + picks. And Phila was not winning a cup with Richards and Carter for 6 years apparently.

 

[MSSLYNX]

Robbery? I wouldn't call it robbery but Dean had his hands tied. It's the best deal he could've gotten but remember Frattin had 7 goals last year lol, wouldn't go as far as calling it robbery.

Hands tied: no
Wanting to do the right thing and give a guy a chance to play in the NHL more than part-time: yes

LA was in a no-win if doing the right thing so probably the 2nd pick will get them the better result because the 2 roster players will not help much.

 

[AKAY47]

Hands tied: no
Wanting to do the right thing and give a guy a chance to play in the NHL more than part-time: yes

LA was in a no-win if doing the right thing so probably the 2nd pick will get them the better result because the 2 roster players will not help much.

He had his hands tied because everyone knew that Bernier was available. That's what I'm trying to say.

 

[MSSLYNX]

We totally agree then!
But some gms would hold on to the guy in that same situation. Now imagine if Quick goes down... Trade would now look real bad.

Kudos to DL even if Bernier becomes a good starter. Man he can even win a Vezina for all i care. DL still did the nice thing.

Becomes a total genius if Bernier doesnt beat Reimer.

 

[AKAY47]

We totally agree then!
But some gms would hold on to the guy in that same situation. Now imagine if Quick goes down... Trade would now look real bad.

Kudos to DL even if Bernier becomes a good starter. Man he can even win a Vezina for all i care. DL still did the nice thing.

Becomes a total genius if Bernier doesnt beat Reimer.

It is what it is. Just like Lombardi said, in our cap system it is impossible to have both Andy Moog and Grant Fuhr (for example). It just doesn't happen, can't have two star goalies and he ran into the same problem in San Jose. He got a 2nd for Kipper, which is way better than what we got in return for Bernier.

The biggest aspect of this deal is the money it saves us, we acquire 2 guys who cost less than what Bernier would've and then we got 500K in space to help re-sign Scuderi and hopefully pry Holloway. It wasn't about Matt Frattin being a 30 goal scorer, hell, he'll maybe score 15 this season but the finances is what we have to look at as the most positive in this deal. Scrivens was a throw in, the 2nd will be decent (everyone says look at Lombardi's track record with 2nd round picks.... how about Chris Gibson lol). Anyways, I've been a Lombardi supporter since day one and I trust everything he does, in Lombardi we trust!

 

[kingsfan]

I don't know if many remember Poorman from his KROQ days in LA, but he's been a die hard Bernier fan since day one. Not a happy camper today.

To bad. What did he really think would happen? We'd keep a guy whose never started a playoff game or been an NHL starter yet over a guy whose won a cup, Conn Smythe and been nominated for the Vezina?

Last 2 trades we made:
We got Reger Frattin, Scrivens, TO 2nd round 2014 or 15 and 492,000 in cap space retention.

We gave Bernier and a 2nd in 2014 and 2015.

Not sure if its all that good for us. If Frattin is a bust and only slightly better than Lewis we will be scratching our heads on what DL did here.

Why lump the last two deals together? Regehr deal we all know we over paid for, but it was a trade deadline deal too, which is when you overpay. This trade on its own was a well done deal that gives LA great overall flexibility going forward.

Exactly. Pointed this out earlier.

What exactly were the conditions again on the pick? My site to track draft picks hasn't updated it yet. It's just Toronto's choice, right? At least I think that's what I saw.

The condition I want to know about is when does Toronto have o tell LA if they are taking the 2014 pick or giving it to LA. At that draft? Ahead of it? Right at the pick?

 

[bmr]

He got a 2nd for Kipper, which is way better than what we got in return for Bernier.

How do you figure that?

 

[cyclones22]

How do you figure that?

Frattin, Scrivens and 500k in cap space has a negative value. Duh.

 

[takk]

It wasn't Dean who traded Kipper. Also how the heck is a 2nd better than a 2nd plus a servicable RFA winger? If Scrivens won't be able to respond to task he'll step off the books just next year and Jones will be ready to fill the back up role. Also Toronto will ate 500K. How the **** is what SJ got "way better" than Kings get? Some people here are being.. just fans I guess.

 

[Natey]

Habs fan here - I've seen a lot of Frattin. I always wanted to like him, but I tend to hate most Leaf players.

Glad I'll be able to cheer for him now. He's a quick and feisty player in the offensive zone. He's got a solid shot too. He's great at protecting the puck and driving the net. Also not scared to take abuse in front of the net either.

His defensive game needs improvement but the good thing is that he's a got a solid work ethic, so he'll continue to improve.

PS. Scrivens is more than capable to be an NHL backup.

Robbery? I wouldn't call it robbery but Dean had his hands tied. It's the best deal he could've gotten but remember Frattin had 7 goals last year lol, wouldn't go as far as calling it robbery.

You talk about 7 goals like it's poor.

You know his 7 goals pro-rates to 23 goals over a full season. Add in the fact that he had no powerplay time and played mostly with Grabovski/McClement - you're talking about a kid that could score 30 in a full year.

 

[Neil Hamburger]

Lol. Main board, of course, a lot of Leafs fans saying Frattin and Scrivens were just spare parts on the Leafs.

They certainly weren't key pieces to the Leafs last year. Fratt's missed only 12 games to injury last year, and was scratched for 11. Scrivens played only 12 games last year. Frattin has the potential to be a 20/20 physical and speedy second-line scorer, and Scrivens is what he is: a nice guy and a decent back-up. It wouldn't exactly be wrong to call them spare parts.

It's a good trade for both teams as you guys get some assets and cap flexibility in exchange for a player who isn't going to do much good for you anyway as you have Quick. We get a highly touted young goalie who could break-out when given a real chance without giving up too much value.

 

[Ewan McGregor*]

Lol. Main board, of course, a lot of Leafs fans saying Frattin and Scrivens were just spare parts on the Leafs.

How is a backup goalie and a 3rd liner not spare parts?

 

[MsMeow]

The overwhelming majority of Flyers fans had nothing but bad things to say about Carter. Lazy, streaking, floater, only scores in blowouts, isn't there when it matters, bad attitude, etc. It was utterly ****ing ridiculous and most Flyer fans are still little ****ing babies when Carter comes up. The guy might have had his issues in Philly at times but he's a hell of a player and it seems that the opinion most give couldn't be farther from what Carter is today. They can't blame their system, coaches, or anything else. It's all Carter's fault.

Oh I agree, but they never liked Carter. And a lot of them turned on Richards because they believed the crap the media was spewing out. But there are a lot of us who believed it was garbage from the start.

 

[MsMeow]

-
Getting Voracek alone for Carter worked out well for Philly. Adding Couturier and Cousins makes it sweeter.
Same goes for the Richards deal. Simmonds + 2nd would have been nice return. Getting Schenn means a very good trade.

Dont get all the Holmgren hate. Even Bryzgalov has a winning record in Philly: 52 wins in 99 games. His .525 gets you in the playoffs the last 2 years. 208-149 lifetime. .582

The Holmgren hate is simple: first of all, he has no clue how to manage the cap or hold on to his assets. He is now stuck with Bryz unless he buys him out but he's going to need a goalie before buying him out, otherwise the price will be very high. He hasn't learned from any of his mistakes where the cap is concerned. He also seems to think it's okay to give Streight a 4 year contract at $5.25 million a year which is an insane overpayment. He needed a goalie like Bernier and would have done better to get him than an over the hill defenceman.

 

[jml87]

Oh I agree, but they never liked Carter. And a lot of them turned on Richards because they believed the crap the media was spewing out. But there are a lot of us who believed it was garbage from the start.

*raises hand*

I guess Carter and Richards decided to stop partying and doing drugs after they came to LA, where there's even more places to go party than Philly. Crazy

 

[Ari91]

We totally agree then!
But some gms would hold on to the guy in that same situation. Now imagine if Quick goes down... Trade would now look real bad.

Kudos to DL even if Bernier becomes a good starter. Man he can even win a Vezina for all i care. DL still did the nice thing.

Becomes a total genius if Bernier doesnt beat Reimer.

If Quick goes down, Scrivens is a serviceable back-up but I will say that while he got the job done on many nights, it usually didn't look pretty but that's something that some time and maturation can change. Also, you might be screaming at him to stay in his net when the opposition is in your zone. I'd say his puck handling isn't the greatest. He has a habit of trying to play the puck behind the net and in more than one occasion has coughed it up and got scored on because he didn't have enough time to get into position after having to hustle back to his net. Like I said, he can get the job done but it may make you feel uneasy watching him do it. However, your D is awesome and so that should help...and again, some more development and experience and those things can be improved.

 

[onlyalad]

How is a backup goalie and a 3rd liner not spare parts?

Using that logic: Kings gave up a spare part for a second round pick and half a mil in cap space and more spare parts then they gave up

 

[Inner Turbulence]

How is a backup goalie and a 3rd liner not spare parts?

Using that analogy, We got 2 "spare parts" and a 2nd round picks for 1 "spare part" in Bernier.

You could also dig deeper and say that there was actually saved quite a bit of cap-space (Frattin+Scrivens costs 1 mill total, replaces Bernier+possibly Richardson on the roster who cost the Kings 2.5 mill). Those 1.5 mill spared might mean the difference between retaining Scuderi and letting him go.

 

[Ewan McGregor*]

Using that logic: Kings gave up a spare part for a second round pick and half a mil in cap space and more spare parts then they gave up

I should've said career back up goalie. Are we equating Bernier's potential to that now?

 

[agentfouser]

Frattin, Scrivens and 500k in cap space has a negative value. Duh.

Really cool avatar, man. Did you make that?

 

[Captain Mittens*]

How is a backup goalie and a 3rd liner not spare parts?

Spare parts are 13th and 14th forwards and 7th defensemen

 

[Ari91]

Using that logic: Kings gave up a spare part for a second round pick and half a mil in cap space and more spare parts then they gave up

Well technically Bernier was a spare part in your system. A spare doesn't mean that the player has no value, it means that an organization has the depth in that particular position that they can afford to use a current roster player as trade bait to upgrade in an area where they don't have a lot of depth. As great as Reimer has played, there are reasons why he hasn't been able to solidify his place - injuries, a shortened season...these are things that have either affected his play or hasn't allowed him the opportunity to carry a real starter's workload so moving forward, there are still questions around Reimer. Quick has answered all of those questions for your team and has a Cup ring and a Conn Smythe to go along with it so that has made Bernier a spare part to your team's future. You have at least one other promising goalie prospect coming through the pipes. Bernier is redundant within your organization.

 

[Inner Turbulence]

-
Getting Voracek alone for Carter worked out well for Philly. Adding Couturier and Cousins makes it sweeter.
Same goes for the Richards deal. Simmonds + 2nd would have been nice return. Getting Schenn means a very good trade.

Dont get all the Holmgren hate. Even Bryzgalov has a winning record in Philly: 52 wins in 99 games. His .525 gets you in the playoffs the last 2 years. 208-149 lifetime. .582

Looks solid for the Flyers. On paper.
A GM can do ever so well "managing asset" trading for youth and 'potential'. But eventually the team have to take significant steps forward to become a contender. Adding pieces that fits the team and the team needs to get them over the hump and into a position as contender.

Before apparantly "losing trades" to get Carter and Richards the Kings were unspectacularly bumped from the playoffs in the first round in back-to-back years.

Since then, Stanley Cup + Western Conference Finals. While still having a top-5 young squad in the NHL that should contend for the next few years.

There's just no way to look at it that doesn't make the Los Angeles Kings a winner in these trades. That doesn't mean there has to be losers in the trades though. The trades might be mutually benefitial.

I think DL is doing an admirable job both asset managing and cap managing the Kings. The team is a contender and the pipeline is flowing with youth. The kind of "assets" that have been moved out were not Cap friendly. Ryan Smythe was a big salary item that made the Kings better just by leaving. Brayden Schenn, for all his potential and early draft position, was an expensive unproven player when he was moved out. His cap-hit, I believe, was 3+ million. Tricky to bring those kind of players along when you're trying to compete.

 

[deeshamrock]

Pretty fair in general but Voracek numbers in Philly are better than Carter's in Philly. .753 vs .744 and i would argue defensive play has to go to Voracek. And off ice attitude too if you believe reports. Not sure how this translate to adding 8th overall and another pick

Carter has the edge in numbers. Voracek just completed his 5th year in the NHL. Through 5 years for both players.
GP G A Pts +/-
Voracek 367 79 150 229 +5
Carter 381 145 132 277 +24
Live in Philly, Flyers fan for over 40 years and have been a Kings fan since the mistake of trading Richards, and having seen all of Carter’s games and all of Voraceks as a Flyer, Carter is the better defender in all 3 zones by a margin. Voracek is an outstanding and explosive offense talent who is a lot of fun to watch. A great offensive player. But Carter is just as talented offensively, has a much deadlier wrist shot is a very very strong 2 way player, very solid on both sides of the puck. Jake, not so much , average to adequate.

Now for the Cup argument, if you say that the deal worked better for LA short-term, i can go along with it. Would have worked better without the Cup too because still not getting full benefits fom the young guys (Couturier + Schenn) + picks. And Phila was not winning a cup with Richards and Carter for 6 years apparently

The Flyers were in very capable hands with Carter and Richards, who as young players helped drive the team to 2 Conference finals (2008, 2010) and a SCF in 2010. The Flyers haven’t won a cup because of GOALTENDING, not Carter and Richards
.
And great at Clarke was, without Bernie Parent, no Cup then either. The Flyers Achilles heel for almost 30 years now has been goaltending. Homer’s poor management of the team, drafts and trades has put them in a bad position, esp CAP wise. They had a very good team in 2010, all they needed was to trade Leino (asking for $$$$) and get a top notch goalie. They chose not to , gutted the team instead and set themselves back years.

The Kings win the trade short term and long term. Without Richards, no Cup last year and an early exit this year. Dean has crafted a very good team, one of the youngest in the league and identified on the day of the Richards trade that he now had what he called the ‘four foundations’ of what a team needs to win and be a contender (positionally). A stud goalie, an elite defensemen and 2 stud centers. Because of that trade and the Carter trade, they’ll be contending for the Cup for years.
The Flyers are an incomplete team, no map, no outline or path, always a crap shoot, a ‘quick fix’ to ‘win now’ and swinging for the fences gets you more strikeouts then homeruns.

 

[cyclones22]

^^^ Thank you for putting in the effort that I couldn't and giving it a more valid perspective as well.

Also, for those keeping score, that pair has now seen 2 SCF appearances and 2 other seasons ending with Conference Finals appearances. Pretty good track record.