Johnny Gaudreau: 2015/16 expectations?
- Thread starter WhiskeyYerTheDevils
- Start date
- Apr 27, 2005
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So in the 84 minutes he's played, Giordano has been -17 relative to Gaudreau?
Regardless of situations, a +17 differential in just 30 games between two players on the same team who both play over 20 mins per game is significant. And it's not like Johnny gets easy matchups. He's the sole focus of other team's defensive strategies.
- Oct 12, 2012
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You are seriously kidding yourself if you think that the Flames don't match him against lesser players at home, there is a reason why Gaudreau has 25 points at home and only 7 on the road (and 3 of those 7 came in the Flames first road game). But of course you don't factor that into your over the top observations. Or how about the fact that Gaudreau is -10 on the road when opposition coaches get to match lines?
Funny what happens you look at things objectively.
I love Gaudreau and I think he is one of the most exciting players in the game but good grief man, you need to give it a rest.
Volica
Papa Shango
- May 15, 2012
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I think it's started a new strategy/trend. When the game was tied Nashville, were the Flames even pressing in the last two minutes of the game? I know at the end of the game there was, what, 25 seconds left in the game; the Flames felt more comfortable just passing it back and forth to themselves rather than pushing it up the ice.
Johnny is like a ridiculous weapon in OT.
Guido Sarducci
Registered User
Maybe he should trademark Gaudrovertime.
My expectations for Johnny Hockey are to lead the Flames in scoring, regular season and playoff, Lady Byng and a few Hart votes. And some huge bank coming his way in the summer.
- Apr 27, 2005
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And you are likewise kidding yourself if you think that opposing teams match up their stars against lesser players while at home, while making sure they give Johnny extra attention with defensive match ups.
Firstly, Gaudreau has 8p and is -9 on the road in 15gp, but +15 at home, so you might want to check your facts. Giordano is -11 on the road, and even at home.
Objectively, Gaudreau is taking advantage of the more favorable matchups while at home, while Giordano is losing his easier match ups on the road.
And it's not just Giordano. Look at Hudler. Look at Wideman. Colborne. Russel.
The +/- differential he's got is certainly notable. That tends to happen when you drive your team's offense.
- Oct 12, 2012
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as I have been trying to drill home +/- is the most flawed stat in the game, using it to compare different players of different positions that play in different roles is beyond useless. Gaudreau is a great player, he no longer needs you tooting his horn and blowing things out of proportion
Gosh dude seriously? Maybe this isn't the thread for you.
On a different note: another assist tonight.
- Oct 12, 2012
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- Oct 12, 2012
- 56,716
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Maybe it's not for you if you can't handle someone not willing to praise someone over nothing. As I have said I love Gaudreau, he's my favorite player on the Flames right now and maybe the most exciting player we've had in franchise history. But I'm sorry comparing +/- between a forward that plays sheltered minutes at home and a defenseman that plays alot more at ES and always against the best competition is downright pointless and proves nothing.
If you want to compare Gaudreau's +/- to the likes of Monahan and Hudler, sure go ahead. But comparing it to people that play different roles makes no sense. It'd be like saying Engelland is better than Giordano because he's a +3 and Giordano is -12, like with Gaudreau it is just not an apt comparison.
Johnnybegood13
Registered User
- Jul 11, 2003
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+/- has always meant "something." ALWAYS. For the 34+ years I've been watching the Flames and the NHL. It's brought up when talking about Bobby Orr. When talking about Bob Gainey. Or Pavel Datsyuk. Or whomever wins the Selke trophy. I get that there's a difference between a defenseman and a forward to some degree. But historically the defenseman are known for the giant + numbers (Bobby Orr and Larry Robinson for examples).
For Johnny to be noted for leading the team at this point is more than okay. Sportsnet commented on it yesterday too. Just because there are more stats today doesn't mean it's a meaningless stat.
- Oct 12, 2012
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Defensemen are also known for giant minus numbers, don't leave that out of the equation. They get the opportunity for bigger numbers plus and minus because of how much more they play at even strength. It's always been the case and always will be the case.
Gaudreau has had a good season, Giordano struggled for a while. You don't need +/- to figure that out. Bringing it up does nothing at all.
Anglesmith
Setting up the play?
I agree with both sides here. +/- can be used to make a point if you wish, but it's so easily affected by other factors such as matchups and linemates that even in the most relevant context- comparing players from the same team- it's tough to show anything without a healthy dose of salt.
The team was a defensive trainwreck early in the year, and Giordano was on the ice for half the game, with goals going in consistently. However, Giordano's +/- wasn't suffering because he was causing goals against by himself, it was struggling because every five-man unit was struggling every single shift, and he was on for half of them (the half with the tougher matchups). Without question, Giordano also was playing less than stellar hockey early on, but he's playing better now and lo, the team has improved with him. Gaudreau has been providing offence all season with the offensive opportunity given to him, and that's been able to mitigate any damage in terms of minuses from early in the year when the team was a defensive trainwreck. It seems like Gaudreau's line gets to play with Hamilton's pairing more than Giordano's pairing lately as Giordano is tasked with shutting down the other team's stars.
At the end of the day, they're both great players currently playing great hockey. +/- isn't going to tell you anything more than confirming that Gaudreau definitely generates offence for his team at an elite level.
The team was a defensive trainwreck early in the year, and Giordano was on the ice for half the game, with goals going in consistently. However, Giordano's +/- wasn't suffering because he was causing goals against by himself, it was struggling because every five-man unit was struggling every single shift, and he was on for half of them (the half with the tougher matchups). Without question, Giordano also was playing less than stellar hockey early on, but he's playing better now and lo, the team has improved with him. Gaudreau has been providing offence all season with the offensive opportunity given to him, and that's been able to mitigate any damage in terms of minuses from early in the year when the team was a defensive trainwreck. It seems like Gaudreau's line gets to play with Hamilton's pairing more than Giordano's pairing lately as Giordano is tasked with shutting down the other team's stars.
At the end of the day, they're both great players currently playing great hockey. +/- isn't going to tell you anything more than confirming that Gaudreau definitely generates offence for his team at an elite level.
SmellOfVictory
Registered User
- Jun 3, 2011
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It's not equally flawed; +/- is the single worst stat you can use to compare skaters, while sv% is the only somewhat useful one you can use for comparing goaltenders. It's not a great one, but in terms of usefulness it's miles ahead of +/-.
yogintheaveragebears
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- May 23, 2015
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SmellOfVictory
Registered User
- Jun 3, 2011
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It means something in relation to your team, but beyond that it's really hard to interpret without a lot of context. A guy who spends his career playing in front of Lundqvist is going to have better +/- numbers than he would if he spent his career playing in front of Osgood, for one example.
blankall
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2007
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Even on the team, there is a lot of context. The shut down centre with the defensive zone starts is going to have a worse +/- than the offensive centre with the offensive zone starts.
On Calgary the stat is especially useless, as the biggest problem is the special teams. PP points are not taken into account in +/- stats. So to say the team has "x" goal differential, but Gaudreau is +6 is a pretty meaningless stat. The vast majority of Calgary's players are within a few points of zero anyways. It could literally be a few tough matchups that would decide whether you are 4 above (nearly leading the team) or 4 below zero.
Tkachuk Norris
Registered User
- Jun 22, 2012
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I don't get why people pick on plus minus so much.
Yes it is a team stat. But it still has some very good info if you look at it in a context.
Two years ago: Gio was +\- of 0 and our team finished fourth last. He was playing against the toughest match ups in the league on a bad team, and still had a zero plus minus. To me that says he's a really good player.
This year. Dougie was minus 11 his first 15 games and plus 11 in his last game. Those both coincide with times that Dougie was playing bad, and then good.
Johnny Hockey. This year he's maintained a plus most of the year. Not a surprise when you consider he was basically the only forward doing anything early on. He was able to produce, especially 5 on 5, which helped him maintain a plus, while the rest of our team sucked and collected minuses.
Plus minus is not an absolute stat, but really no stat is an absolute stat. Like most stats it needs context or it tells you nothing.
Yes it is a team stat. But it still has some very good info if you look at it in a context.
Two years ago: Gio was +\- of 0 and our team finished fourth last. He was playing against the toughest match ups in the league on a bad team, and still had a zero plus minus. To me that says he's a really good player.
This year. Dougie was minus 11 his first 15 games and plus 11 in his last game. Those both coincide with times that Dougie was playing bad, and then good.
Johnny Hockey. This year he's maintained a plus most of the year. Not a surprise when you consider he was basically the only forward doing anything early on. He was able to produce, especially 5 on 5, which helped him maintain a plus, while the rest of our team sucked and collected minuses.
Plus minus is not an absolute stat, but really no stat is an absolute stat. Like most stats it needs context or it tells you nothing.
Can we not talk about +/- anymore? I think I preferred this thread when it was full of people predicting Gaudreau would score 29 points this season and get a career-ending injury.
OvermanKingGainer
#BennettFreed #CurseofTheSpulll #FreeOliver
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