John Tortorella Named (Part Time) Head Coach Discussion

[Beef Invictus]

Effort without talent is just spinning wheels. BC knew that. He put in the effort but he and his BB teammates had a heck of a lot of skill and speed to go with their size, strength and energy. The image of them being a team of knuckle dragging goons sold tickets around the League but did them no service.

Clarke doesn't know that anymore. He long ago deluded himself into believing he and his team got by on effort and work alone. Not talent. The team (and him, the ultimate source of this mindset) very clearly views talent as a cheap and lazy shortcut.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Can we go back to the part where deadhead was minimizing how good Marty St Louis was in 2004 in order to prop up Torts in 2023?

He got 97% of the votes for MVP that season.

2003-04 NHL Awards Voting | Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

@JojoTheWhale

Can we?

 

[deadhead]

I believe you think he had no choice. I believe he thought he had no choice. But it had no upside for the franchise. It was trading developmental time for a few meaningless marginal wins.

There's no way to spin that as anything but a strong negative for me.

To me that's an organizational problem, and the reason Torts keeps repeating the mantra "build it right." I think if CBJ had stayed the course after his second season, and continued to build instead of making win now moves, they'd have been a top team in a couple more seasons.

The GM didn't start a rebuild until Torts left, had he committed to a rebuild earlier, I'm sure Torts would have left two years earlier, not that he's opposed to rebuilding, but after watching the idiot blow up what he built . . .

Which is probably why he was so vocal about rebuilding last fall, he saw the same issue, CF trying to hold onto his job by mortgaging the future and asking Torts to save his bacon. I'm sure he's discussed what went wrong in CBJ with Briere, and wanted a commitment to a long-term rebuild. Notice they've dismissed signing a high priced free agent in the near future. They're singing the same tune.

 

[Beef Invictus]

To me that's an organizational problem, and the reason Torts keeps repeating the mantra "build it right." I think if CBJ had stayed the course after his second season, and continued to build instead of making win now moves, they'd have been a top team in a couple more seasons.

The GM didn't start a rebuild until Torts left, had he committed to a rebuild earlier, I'm sure Torts would have left two years earlier, not that he's opposed to rebuilding, but after watching the idiot blow up what he built . . .

Which is probably why he was so vocal about rebuilding last fall, he saw the same issue, CF trying to hold onto his job by mortgaging the future and asking Torts to save his bacon. I'm sure he's discussed what went wrong in CBJ with Briere, and wanted a commitment to a long-term rebuild. Notice they've dismissed signing a high priced free agent in the near future. They're singing the same tune.

Tortorella's idea of "building right" is purging all offensive creativity and talent from the roster and dodecalling down on grinding.

He has already said that's what he wants. More grinders.

The problem is that's actually building wrong. It's 2023, not 2003. Things have changed, and Tortorella is screaming about how things were back in his day while the rest of the league leaves the Flyers even further behind.

 

[ponder719]

Clarke doesn't know that anymore. He long ago deluded himself into believing he and his team got by on effort and work alone. Not talent. The team (and him, the ultimate source of this mindset) very clearly views talent as a cheap and lazy shortcut.

If they're watching the Flyers, they don't view talent at all.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I think if CBJ had stayed the course after his second season, and continued to build instead of making win now moves, they'd have been a top team in a couple more seasons.

That is so insane I really don't know how to respond.

Werenski, Jones, Saad, Wennberg, Atkinson, Jenner, Foligno, Anderson, Savard, Bjorkstrand, Murray, and PLD is the most dead-end core you can possibly imagine. You couldn't even keep it all together because the physical secondary players would get overpaid on the market. And you'd combust the second you ran into a real contender over 7 games.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Wait, Wilson is connected to Lombardi. Ugh never mind, no interest in him at all.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That is so insane I really don't know how to respond.

Werenski, Jones, Saad, Wennberg, Atkinson, Jenner, Foligno, Anderson, Savard, Bjorkstrand, Murray, and PLD is the most dead-end core you can possibly imagine. You couldn't even keep it all together because the physical secondary players would get overpaid on the market. And you'd combust the second you ran into a real contender over 7 games.

Ok, but what if you ignore that and pretend Tortorella is a magical wizard who is the opposite of what he is? How does that turn out?

 

[ponder719]

Ok, but what if you ignore that and pretend Tortorella is a magical wizard who is the opposite of what he is? How does that turn out?

The Balrog's whip snaps out at the last second and drags him into the abyss of Khazad-dûm.

 

[tucson83]

Cooper is a "soft coach."

Remind me, how has Tampa done under him?

The Flyers have been relentless petty hardasses to their players for ages. How has that worked out?

why is everything about what you want and not what works? you dont seem to care about this team winning at all. you dont support anything this fo does. we changed coaches, we kept the same players for over ten years and nothing, you hate torts because you dont want to changes to the roster.
you just to keep the same roster and expect it to become a contender, it's not working.

 

[Curufinwe]

why is everything about what you want and not what works? you dont seem to care about this team winning at all. you dont support anything this fo does. we changed coaches, we kept the same players for over ten years and nothing, you hate torts because you dont want to changes to the roster.
you just to keep the same roster and expect it to become a contender, it's not working.

The team has gotten significantly worse since they got rid of the only two players other than Couturier who were actually here for 10 years, Giroux and Voracek.

2011-2021: .563 (14th)

2021-2023: .415 (28th)

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Ok, but what if you ignore that and pretend Tortorella is a magical wizard who is the opposite of what he is? How does that turn out?

Hockey is stupid. So instead, can we just take a minute to appreciate the kinds of life lessons Houdini gave us? You really can just bribe your way out of Alcatraz and have people believe you're magical. The world works like that.

 

[Beef Invictus]

why is everything about what you want and not what works? you dont seem to care about this team winning at all. you dont support anything this fo does. we changed coaches, we kept the same players for over ten years and nothing, you hate torts because you dont want to changes to the roster.
you just to keep the same roster and expect it to become a contender, it's not working.

You're elite at being wrong, because you just make up nonsense that nobody thinks or believes and then you pretend they do.

You know what doesn't work? What the Flyers have been doing. Tortorella is just more of that. It will continue not working.

I don't support anything they do because it has been a very long time since they've done anything good. I shouldn't support bad moves, right? I've been right.

We have not kept the same players for 10 years. That's just flat lunacy. The roster has turned over repeatedly in the last decade.

I "hate" Tortorella because he wants to fill the roster with more grinders. He is anti-scoring. He is the antithesis of winning hockey in 2023. He is a mistake who has failed everywhere for 20 years and will continue failing because he refuses to adapt. He doesn't even do his job.

 

[deadhead]

That is so insane I really don't know how to respond.

Werenski, Jones, Saad, Wennberg, Atkinson, Jenner, Foligno, Anderson, Savard, Bjorkstrand, Murray, and PLD is the most dead-end core you can possibly imagine. You couldn't even keep it all together because the physical secondary players would get overpaid on the market. And you'd combust the second you ran into a real contender over 7 games.

That was a start, not a finish.

Like I said, idiot GM. Just b/c your HC turns your team around, you don't assume you're ready to play with the big boys, then rent Panarin for two years (he had made it clear he wanted to go to NYC), and make a bunch of desperate TDL trades.

If Couts and Atkinson return 100% and Torts gets them into the POs next year, I hope Briere would have the sense to stay the course and keep rebuilding - what we saw last decade was continual overreaction to good seasons instead of a patient process of building a team. In any sport, a .500 team can have a .550 season (or .450), a FO key is to be honest about your actual talent and not be fooled by an anomalous season.

 

[Beef Invictus]

They are not making the playoffs next year. They don't have the talent to score enough. They have a coach who aggravates that problem. The coach's lack of understanding of current offense means he can't effectively scheme defenses for it, either.

Tortorella did not "turn CBJ around."

 

[kudymen]

I wonder if Idiot GM was a victim of some Ohio Dave Scott

 

[Beef Invictus]

I wonder if Idiot GM was a victim of some Ohio Dave Scott

No no, he is solely to blame. Poor sad Tortorella is the aggrieved victim. He bears no blame for a crushingly outdated approach to the game. He had no choice, as always.

Hakstol had no choice. AV had no choice. Fletcher had no choice. Tortorella had no choice. He still doesn't.

Amazing how all these people are completely hostage to their situations without any agency at all.

 

[freakydallas13]

Actually, I think he lasts longer than most HCs (except for Vancouver).
TB - 7 seasons
NYR - 5 seasons
CBJ - 6 seasons (and that was more the idiot GM who destroyed that team).

Now if you want a HC who wears out his welcome, Gallant is exhibit #1
CBJ - 2+ years
FLA - 2+ years
Vegas - 2+ years
fired mid-season at each of these stops. Twice after making the POs the previous season. Wow!
NYR - ???

I agree, when you ignore evidence that conflicts with what you are trying to prove, it does sound like what you are saying.

It was trading developmental time for a few meaningless marginal wins.

Despair.jpeg

 

[tucson83]

You're elite at being wrong, because you just make up nonsense that nobody thinks or believes and then you pretend they do.

You know what doesn't work? What the Flyers have been doing. Tortorella is just more of that. It will continue not working.

I don't support anything they do because it has been a very long time since they've done anything good. I shouldn't support bad moves, right? I've been right.

We have not kept the same players for 10 years. That's just flat lunacy. The roster has turned over repeatedly in the last decade.

I "hate" Tortorella because he wants to fill the roster with more grinders. He is anti-scoring. He is the antithesis of winning hockey in 2023. He is a mistake who has failed everywhere for 20 years and will continue failing because he refuses to adapt. He doesn't even do his job.

yeah let's be toronto, they cant get out of the first round with offense first players, you dont watch the playoffs, you would rather watch an all offensive first team, that gets shut down the playoffs knocked out again and again because they cant play defense, it just doesnt work. there's too many trap teams in the playoffs for that scheme to work.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I am ded.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

That was a start, not a finish.

Like I said, idiot GM. Just b/c your HC turns your team around, you don't assume you're ready to play with the big boys, then rent Panarin for two years (he had made it clear he wanted to go to NYC), and make a bunch of desperate TDL trades.

No no no no no no. None of this makes a lick of sense. You have combinations of opinions that can't coexist reasonably. On one hand, Jarmo is an idiot. On the other, he built the core of a contender up from the studs over ~4 years.

They were already in the playoffs by the time we're talking about. They went out and added a true difference-making star for 2 years at the cost of an excellent complimentary Winger, a marginal Goalie prospect, and a pick you would (and have) tell me doesn't matter over and over and over again. And the star was only one year older. I'm a huge proponent of Saad as an underrated player, but that was a PHENOMENAL trade for a team that can't attract stars.

*Edit* We have reached the end of the timeline. Deady thinks a GM is an idiot and I can see what he was thinking.

 

[dragonoffrost]

 

[ponder719]

No no no no no no. None of this makes a lick of sense. You have combinations of opinions that can't coexist reasonably. On one hand, Jarmo is an idiot. On the other, he built the core of a contender up from the studs over ~4 years.

They were already in the playoffs by the time we're talking about. They went out and added a true difference-making star for 2 years at the cost of an excellent complimentary Winger, a marginal Goalie prospect, and a pick you would (and have) tell me doesn't matter over and over and over again. And the star was only one year older. I'm a huge proponent of Saad as an underrated player, but that was a PHENOMENAL trade for a team that can't attract stars.

*Edit* We have reached the end of the timeline. Deady thinks a GM is an idiot and I can see what he was thinking.

Jojo, please, for the sake of your sanity, you must step away from the keyboard and touch grass, right now. We cannot lose you to the morass of Authentic madness.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Jojo, please, for the sake of your sanity, you must step away from the keyboard and touch grass, right now. We cannot lose you to the morass of Authentic madness.

Got it covered.

 

[Beef Invictus]

yeah let's be toronto,

Show me where I said "let's be Toronto."

they cant get out of the first round with offense first players,

I remember when this was said about TB. And Pittsburgh. And Colorado. And Carolina. And Edmonton. And Washington.

you dont watch the playoffs,

I do.

you would rather watch an all offensive first team,

I would like to watch a team that isn't near the bottom of the league in scoring. You win by scoring.

that gets shut down the playoffs knocked out again and again because they cant play defense,

Incorrect. That is not what I want. You have no idea what anyone wants.

Also, usually teams that are scoring a lot are possessing the puck. The other team cannot score while you have the puck. It's the most effective and foolproof form of defense there is.

it just doesnt work. there's too many trap teams in the playoffs for that scheme to work.

It has been working. 2003 is over. The Dead Puck Era is over.