John Tortorella Named (Part Time) Head Coach Discussion

[Hollywood Cannon]

I want to be Toronto. There I said it.

 

[Magua]

I want to be Toronto. There I said it.

It’s like a Charlotte Hornets fan saying, “Would you really want to be like the Sixers?” Top 5ish team every season, MVP stud, competent management, albeit needs to get over a playoff hurdle.

Uh, f*** yes? Imagine being a fan of a dead end team and not wanting to be like any contender. Couldn’t be me.

 

[kudymen]

Top 5ish team every season

Jeeez sorry but do you realise that this means they can’t hang the “4th / 5th most improved team” every season?

 

[tucson83]

Show me where I said "let's be Toronto."



I remember when this was said about TB. And Pittsburgh. And Colorado. And Carolina. And Edmonton. And Washington.



I do.



I would like to watch a team that isn't near the bottom of the league in scoring. You win by scoring.



Incorrect. That is not what I want. You have no idea what anyone wants.

Also, usually teams that are scoring a lot are possessing the puck. The other team cannot score while you have the puck. It's the most effective and foolproof form of defense there is.

It has been working. 2003 is over. The Dead Puck Era is over.

no defense wins cups, that's exactly what you said

latest final winner scores

2022 tampa bay vs colorado finals game 6 colorado defeating the lightning 2-1 to win the cup, yeah there's no defense in that.

2021 tampa bay lightning vs montreal defeating montreal 1-0 to win the cup, i guess there's no defense in that either

2020 tampa bay lightning vs dallas 2-0 defeats dallas to win the cup, no defense either.

 

[Beef Invictus]

no defense wins cups, that's exactly what you said

Show me where I said, exactly, "no defense wins Cups."

You cannot. Do you know why you cannot? Because you are lying. I never said that.

latest final winner scores

2022 tampa bay vs colorado finals game 6 colorado defeating the lightning 2-1 to win the cup, yeah there's no defense in that.

2021 tampa bay lightning vs montreal defeating montreal 1-0 to win the cup, i guess there's no defense in that either

2020 tampa bay lightning vs dallas 2-0 defeats dallas to win the cup, no defense either.

You're missing so much context this is worth ignoring. You're also showing an extremely simplistic understanding of defense.

Did you know that focusing on offense and possession is, on its own, a form of defense? Certainly vastly more effective than the sort Tortorella preaches.

 

[deadhead]

No no no no no no. None of this makes a lick of sense. You have combinations of opinions that can't coexist reasonably. On one hand, Jarmo is an idiot. On the other, he built the core of a contender up from the studs over ~4 years.

They were already in the playoffs by the time we're talking about. They went out and added a true difference-making star for 2 years at the cost of an excellent complimentary Winger, a marginal Goalie prospect, and a pick you would (and have) tell me doesn't matter over and over and over again. And the star was only one year older. I'm a huge proponent of Saad as an underrated player, but that was a PHENOMENAL trade for a team that can't attract stars.

*Edit* We have reached the end of the timeline. Deady thinks a GM is an idiot and I can see what he was thinking.

Timing is everything. Panarin, like Tavares, isn't the kind of player that makes you a winner, he's a luxury item. He didn't turn the Rangers around, they didn't win until his 3rd season there, when Shesterkin won 36 games with a .935 Sv%. They also added Fox, Trouba, etc..

Point is adding Panarin was never a needle mover, and you can make a case it disrupted team chemistry. CBJ was years away from being good enough that adding a little offense could put them over the top.

Nor was he a great drafter:
2013: Weenberg #14, Rychel #19, Dano #27, Bjorkstrand #89
2014: Milano #16, Merzlikins #76
2015: Werenski #8, Carlsson #29, Bittner #38, Gavrikov #159, Nitivaara #176
2016: Dubois #3, Peeke #34
2017: , no 1st rd pick, Texier #45
2018: Foudy #18
2019: no 1st, 2nd, 3rd rd picks
2020: Chinakhov #21, no 2nd rd pick
2021: Kent Johnson #5, Sillinger #12, Ceulemans #25
2022: Jiricek #6, Mateychuk #12

Trades of note
3/5/14 Tyrell for Marchessault
3/2/15 R Bourque, Karlsson, 2nd for Wiesniewski & 3rd
6/30/15 Saad for Dano, Anisimov
1/6/16 S Jones for Johansen
6/23/17 Panarin for Saad, A Forsberg
2/22/19 Duchene for 2019 1st
2/22/19 Dzingel for Duclair, 2020 2nd, 2021 2nd
10/6/20 Domi, 3rd rd pick for Anderson
4/10/21 TB 1st, 3rd for Lashoff
4/11/21 2021 1st, 4th for Foligno
7/23/21 Bean for 2021 2nd rd
7/23/21 Boqvist, 2021 1st rd swap, 2021 2nd, 2022 1st for S Jones
7/22/22 2022 3rd, 4th for Bjorkstrand

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I can’t have a discussion where acquiring 2 seasons of a 1 year older Artemi Panarin for Brandon Saad is anything but a home run. I’m sorry. It’s below the line to acknowledge.

What I can say is that if Panarin wanting to leave as a UFA disrupts chemistry so much that it becomes a major franchise issue, your coach handled the situation incompetently. I’m not making that claim. But if you are, don’t ever tell me how flawless that coach is again and expect me to take you seriously.

 

[Striiker]

You don't win by adding >P/PG players.

You win by adding guys like Manson. Before him, the Avs were hopeless trash.

Maybe Columbus should've added Risto, Hagg, or someone similar. Then Torts could've quickly won a cup before leaving.

 

[deadhead]

I can’t have a discussion where acquiring 2 seasons of a 1 year older Artemi Panarin for Brandon Saad is anything but a home run. I’m sorry. It’s below the line to acknowledge.

What I can say is that if Panarin wanting to leave as a UFA disrupts chemistry so much that it becomes a major franchise issue, your coach handled the situation incompetently. I’m not making that claim. But if you are, don’t ever tell me how flawless that coach is again and expect me to take you seriously.

I don't think Torts is flawless, I just think the CBJ GM is clueless.

He made some good trades, some bad trades, but like the Flyers, no long-term strategic vision.
Even his current tank is by accident, due to injuries, not intent - he didn't sign JG to finish with the 2nd worst record in the NHL.
Now part of the problem is CBJ isn't a prime destination, but your strategy has to take that into account.

Compare to Carolina who had a similar coach driven turnaround.
Since Waddell took over, Carolina traded (1) late 1st rd pick, but for a 24 year old D-man (Skjeii).
They also picked up a 1st rd pick in a salary dump, And a lot of 2nd and 3rd rd picks.
They keep their cap under tight control, and are willing to trade veterans or let them walk rather than overpay their "out" years.
They've never let success fool them into mortgaging the future for a slight increase in the odds of advancing in the playoffs in any season.
The only really questionable move was the long term deal given to Kotkaniemi. But at 22, he's an upside play.

It's obvious that Carolina has a blueprint for success, they execute it well, but they're also consistent in their strategic direction, managing the roster and assets to stay competitive over the long-term haul. And Waddell gets players who fit with Brind'Amour's schemes and philosophy.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't think Torts is flawless, I just think the CBJ GM is clueless.

He made some good trades, some bad trades, but like the Flyers, no long-term strategic vision.
Even his current tank is by accident, due to injuries, not intent - he didn't sign JG to finish with the 2nd worst record in the NHL.
Now part of the problem is CBJ isn't a prime destination, but your strategy has to take that into account.

Compare to Carolina who had a similar coach driven turnaround.
Since Waddell took over, Carolina traded (1) late 1st rd pick, but for a 24 year old D-man (Skjeii).
They also picked up a 1st rd pick in a salary dump, And a lot of 2nd and 3rd rd picks.
They keep their cap under tight control, and are willing to trade veterans or let them walk rather than overpay their "out" years.
They've never let success fool them into mortgaging the future for a slight increase in the odds of advancing in the playoffs in any season.
The only really questionable move was the long term deal given to Kotkaniemi. But at 22, he's an upside play.

It's obvious that Carolina has a blueprint for success, they execute it well, but they're also consistent in their strategic direction, managing the roster and assets to stay competitive over the long-term haul. And Waddell gets players who fit with Brind'Amour's schemes and philosophy.

You think Tortorella is someone that he isn't.

 

[dragonoffrost]

I don't think Torts is flawless, I just think the CBJ GM is clueless.

He made some good trades, some bad trades, but like the Flyers, no long-term strategic vision.
Even his current tank is by accident, due to injuries, not intent - he didn't sign JG to finish with the 2nd worst record in the NHL.
Now part of the problem is CBJ isn't a prime destination, but your strategy has to take that into account.

Compare to Carolina who had a similar coach driven turnaround.
Since Waddell took over, Carolina traded (1) late 1st rd pick, but for a 24 year old D-man (Skjeii).
They also picked up a 1st rd pick in a salary dump, And a lot of 2nd and 3rd rd picks.
They keep their cap under tight control, and are willing to trade veterans or let them walk rather than overpay their "out" years.
They've never let success fool them into mortgaging the future for a slight increase in the odds of advancing in the playoffs in any season.
The only really questionable move was the long term deal given to Kotkaniemi. But at 22, he's an upside play.

It's obvious that Carolina has a blueprint for success, they execute it well, but they're also consistent in their strategic direction, managing the roster and assets to stay competitive over the long-term haul. And Waddell gets players who fit with Brind'Amour's schemes and philosophy.

LOL yet you defended Fletcher as he did exactly the opposite of Carolina.... Now you want us to be Carolina....

 

[deadhead]

LOL yet you defended Fletcher as he did exactly the opposite of Carolina.... Now you want us to be Carolina....

I didn't defend Fletcher for doing that, I castigated Holmgren for mandating that.
Holmgren hired Fletcher to "win now," then Barber counseled Scott that they could "aggressively reload."

Fletcher didn't do a great job of executing that mandate, but no GM would have succeeded over the long haul trying to win with that 2018-19 roster and talent pipeline. It's not like former Flyers are running around, dominating the NHL (there's G, Ghost is the #5 D-man on Carolina, Gudas #5 on Fla, NAK and Lindblom 4th liners, who else from that 2018-19 team is still in the NHL?).

 

[dragonoffrost]

I didn't defend Fletcher for doing that, I castigated Holmgren for mandating that.
Holmgren hired Fletcher to "win now," then Barber counseled Scott that they could "aggressively reload."

Fletcher didn't do a great job of executing that mandate, but no GM would have succeeded over the long haul trying to win with that 2018-19 roster and talent pipeline. It's not like former Flyers are running around, dominating the NHL (there's G, Ghost is the #5 D-man on Carolina, Gudas #5 on Fla, NAK and Lindblom 4th liners, who else from that 2018-19 team is still in the NHL?).

Half that team is still here because FLETCHER resigned them!!!!

And Fletcher had 4 seasons to help improve the pipeline you say is so lacking....

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I don't think Torts is flawless, I just think the CBJ GM is clueless.

He made some good trades, some bad trades, but like the Flyers, no long-term strategic vision.
Even his current tank is by accident, due to injuries, not intent - he didn't sign JG to finish with the 2nd worst record in the NHL.
Now part of the problem is CBJ isn't a prime destination, but your strategy has to take that into account.

Compare to Carolina who had a similar coach driven turnaround.
Since Waddell took over, Carolina traded (1) late 1st rd pick, but for a 24 year old D-man (Skjeii).
They also picked up a 1st rd pick in a salary dump, And a lot of 2nd and 3rd rd picks.
They keep their cap under tight control, and are willing to trade veterans or let them walk rather than overpay their "out" years.
They've never let success fool them into mortgaging the future for a slight increase in the odds of advancing in the playoffs in any season.
The only really questionable move was the long term deal given to Kotkaniemi. But at 22, he's an upside play.

It's obvious that Carolina has a blueprint for success, they execute it well, but they're also consistent in their strategic direction, managing the roster and assets to stay competitive over the long-term haul. And Waddell gets players who fit with Brind'Amour's schemes and philosophy.

Waddell mostly handles the business stuff these days from what I've read. He's more of a traditional PHOps.

So what I'm saying here is that I think you have an excellent idea. Eric Tulsky should be the Flyers' GM. After all these years, we've landed on the same ridiculous head of hair. I'll remember this day fondly forever.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I didn't defend Fletcher for doing that, I castigated Holmgren for mandating that.
Holmgren hired Fletcher to "win now," then Barber counseled Scott that they could "aggressively reload."

Fletcher didn't do a great job of executing that mandate, but no GM would have succeeded over the long haul trying to win with that 2018-19 roster and talent pipeline. It's not like former Flyers are running around, dominating the NHL (there's G, Ghost is the #5 D-man on Carolina, Gudas #5 on Fla, NAK and Lindblom 4th liners, who else from that 2018-19 team is still in the NHL?).

Shifting the blame away from the person responsible is defending them.

Every single solitary source we have had out of this extremely leaky organization fails to me tion Holmgren as being very responsible for team direction. He certainly wasn't handing out mandates.

 

[Nizzle]

I didn't defend Fletcher for doing that, I castigated Holmgren for mandating that.
Holmgren hired Fletcher to "win now," then Barber counseled Scott that they could "aggressively reload."

Fletcher didn't do a great job of executing that mandate, but no GM would have succeeded over the long haul trying to win with that 2018-19 roster and talent pipeline. It's not like former Flyers are running around, dominating the NHL (there's G, Ghost is the #5 D-man on Carolina, Gudas #5 on Fla, NAK and Lindblom 4th liners, who else from that 2018-19 team is still in the NHL?).

It's certainly true that a team's success depends on a number of factors beyond just the actions of the GM. In the case of the 2018-19 Flyers team, it's possible that no GM could have succeeded in turning them into a long-term contender, given the roster and talent pipeline at the time.

However, it's also important to recognize that a GM's job is to evaluate the talent available and make decisions that maximize the team's chances of success both in the short and long term. While a GM may be constrained by factors such as ownership mandates or limited assets, it's ultimately up to them to make the most of the situation and build a team that can be competitive over the long haul.

In the case of Fletcher and the 2018-19 Flyers, it's fair to question whether his decisions and moves were the best possible ones given the team's circumstances. While it's true that former Flyers players aren't necessarily dominating the NHL, it's also possible that a different approach to building and developing the team could have yielded better results in the long run.

 

[Rebels57]

It's certainly true that a team's success depends on a number of factors beyond just the actions of the GM. In the case of the 2018-19 Flyers team, it's possible that no GM could have succeeded in turning them into a long-term contender, given the roster and talent pipeline at the time.

However, it's also important to recognize that a GM's job is to evaluate the talent available and make decisions that maximize the team's chances of success both in the short and long term. While a GM may be constrained by factors such as ownership mandates or limited assets, it's ultimately up to them to make the most of the situation and build a team that can be competitive over the long haul.

In the case of Fletcher and the 2018-19 Flyers, it's fair to question whether his decisions and moves were the best possible ones given the team's circumstances. While it's true that former Flyers players aren't necessarily dominating the NHL, it's also possible that a different approach to building and developing the team could have yielded better results in the long run.

Translation: Fletcher is a stupid asshole that did a shitty job.

 

[Curufinwe]

Flyers name ex-Wild exec Fletcher as new GM

Chuck Fletcher was hired as executive vice president and general manager of the Philadelphia Flyers on Monday, one week after Ron Hextall was fired.

www.espn.com

"At the conclusion of a rigorous review of GM candidates, Chuck Fletcher clearly stood out from the field of talented and capable executives we considered," Dave Scott, chairman and CEO of Comcast Spectacor and Flyers governor, said in a statement. "Chuck has earned success throughout his impressive NHL career and offers the right mix of expertise, business acumen and leadership qualities that the Flyers need today as we work to achieve our ultimate goal, the Stanley Cup championship."

"The Flyers are proud to have Chuck Fletcher as the new general manager of our hockey club," Flyers president Paul Holmgren said. "Throughout his career he has helped shape teams that have consistently competed in the playoffs. In addition, Chuck's tireless work ethic, wealth of knowledge and experience in the hockey community will be instrumental in leading our team into the future."

"It is an honor to join the Flyers, an iconic NHL franchise, and I would like to thank Dave Scott and Paul Holmgren for entrusting me to guide the team forward," Fletcher said. "Adding to my excitement is the high level of talent that is in place, which sets this opportunity apart and will pay dividends as we move the organization ahead and ultimately compete for a championship."

 

[dragonoffrost]

Flyers name ex-Wild exec Fletcher as new GM

Chuck Fletcher was hired as executive vice president and general manager of the Philadelphia Flyers on Monday, one week after Ron Hextall was fired.

www.espn.com

"At the conclusion of a rigorous review of GM candidates, Chuck Fletcher clearly stood out from the field of talented and capable executives we considered," Dave Scott, chairman and CEO of Comcast Spectacor and Flyers governor, said in a statement. "Chuck has earned success throughout his impressive NHL career and offers the right mix of expertise, business acumen and leadership qualities that the Flyers need today as we work to achieve our ultimate goal, the Stanley Cup championship."

"The Flyers are proud to have Chuck Fletcher as the new general manager of our hockey club," Flyers president Paul Holmgren said. "Throughout his career he has helped shape teams that have consistently competed in the playoffs. In addition, Chuck's tireless work ethic, wealth of knowledge and experience in the hockey community will be instrumental in leading our team into the future."

"It is an honor to join the Flyers, an iconic NHL franchise, and I would like to thank Dave Scott and Paul Holmgren for entrusting me to guide the team forward," Fletcher said. "Adding to my excitement is the high level of talent that is in place, which sets this opportunity apart and will pay dividends as we move the organization ahead and ultimately compete for a championship."

Awaits the inevitable... What did you expect him to say? Did you expect him to shit on his predecessor and the organization that hired him?

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

that's what's crazy, look at toronto so much talent and yet still cant get it done, as some point soft coaches dont work and that team needs an accountable coach that understands what needs to be done to get to the next round, instead of the word cater, cater, cater, cater, it never works.

DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Flyers name ex-Wild exec Fletcher as new GM

Chuck Fletcher was hired as executive vice president and general manager of the Philadelphia Flyers on Monday, one week after Ron Hextall was fired.

www.espn.com

"At the conclusion of a rigorous review of GM candidates, Chuck Fletcher clearly stood out from the field of talented and capable executives we considered," Dave Scott, chairman and CEO of Comcast Spectacor and Flyers governor, said in a statement. "Chuck has earned success throughout his impressive NHL career and offers the right mix of expertise, business acumen and leadership qualities that the Flyers need today as we work to achieve our ultimate goal, the Stanley Cup championship."

"The Flyers are proud to have Chuck Fletcher as the new general manager of our hockey club," Flyers president Paul Holmgren said. "Throughout his career he has helped shape teams that have consistently competed in the playoffs. In addition, Chuck's tireless work ethic, wealth of knowledge and experience in the hockey community will be instrumental in leading our team into the future."

"It is an honor to join the Flyers, an iconic NHL franchise, and I would like to thank Dave Scott and Paul Holmgren for entrusting me to guide the team forward," Fletcher said. "Adding to my excitement is the high level of talent that is in place, which sets this opportunity apart and will pay dividends as we move the organization ahead and ultimately compete for a championship."

"rigorous review of GM candidates"

Ron Hextall was fired on November 26th and Chuck Fletcher was hired on December 3rd. That's a week.

I'm sure they worked very very hard to find Fletcher and left no stone unturned.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

We're outsiders. We can't possibly know what did and didn't happen in whatever time period.

Someone find Billy King to tell us what to think.

 

[Beef Invictus]

"rigorous review of GM candidates"

Ron Hextall was fired on November 26th and Chuck Fletcher was hired on December 3rd. That's a week.

I'm sure they worked very very hard to find Fletcher and left no stone unturned.

They rigorously did what Clarke said to do

 

[ajgoal]

I want to be Toronto. There I said it.

You'd be full of Torontonians though.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

"rigorous review of GM candidates"

Ron Hextall was fired on November 26th and Chuck Fletcher was hired on December 3rd. That's a week.

I'm sure they worked very very hard to find Fletcher and left no stone unturned.

I remember they interviewed Bill Zito & Dave Nonis on top of obviously Fletcher. IIRC Fletcher’s name was consistent from the start when the job first opened which probably leads credence it was always his to lose from the on start.