John Tavares Discussion

[ULF_55]

So what’s the value of not as good?
If Matthews makes 13/14 million next time, I’d Nylander demanding 9.5 equivalent enough as not as good. Nylander is now putting up Tavares points.

Trading Nylander is nothing equivalent to trading Kadri. Even Kadri trade doesn’t matter if we got a solid long term piece back. Which we didn’t.

People freak about trading x and losing. It depends what key piece you are smart enough to trade for. We aren’t winning now with it.
The only thing I worried about Kadri winning the Cup is how much more paranoid it would make an already paranoid fanbase.

Yeah, the return and impact on the team is the only thing that matters.

The players, all of them, are rentals, and they aren't the goal, the Cup is the goal.

If you could trade for Shesterkin who is off limit? Matthews, that about it. He's the goal producer, assists are nice but they don't determine the winner.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Matthews team probably wanted as short as possible, so my guess is Dubas wanted 8 years but Matthews had to agree and wouldn't.

I get that part...but why were we not able to get any real concessions? Why not say if you want short term we can't also give you a NMC? When people try and defend Dubas they keep saying his hands were tied because of offer sheets yet they were absent except for montreal and the Canes little fiasco. If anything they showed it was a waste of time.

 

[ULF_55]

I get that part...but why were we not able to get any real concessions? Why not say if you want short term we can't also give you a NMC? When people try and defend Dubas they keep saying his hands were tied because of offer sheets yet they were absent except for montreal and the Canes little fiasco. If anything they showed it was a waste of time.

I'm not defending Dubas, he has nothing to do with my point.

The player has to agree, you can't force a player to sign something at least not in North America yet.

I doubt Matthews got everything he asked for, but we'll never know that will we?

About the only thing I take out of these contracts is you trade them as soon as it becomes clear their intentions are only about personal benefits without showing any commitment to the franchise.

McDavid took an 8 year deal, to play in Edmonton. He made a commitment to his team.
Draisaitl took an 8 year deal, to play in Edmonton.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I'm not defending Dubas, he has nothing to do with my point.

The player has to agree, you can't force a player to sign something at least not in North America yet.

I doubt Matthews got everything he asked for, but we'll never know that will we?

About the only thing I take out of these contracts is you trade them as soon as it becomes clear their intentions are only about personal benefits without showing any commitment to the franchise.

McDavid took an 8 year deal, to play in Edmonton. He made a commitment to his team.
Draisaitl took an 8 year deal, to play in Edmonton.

If Matthews didn't get everything he asked for possibly, it just shows the team is in trouble on the next deal. I agree with the Oilers example...They wanted to be there for the long haul not worrying too much about every dollar. It just bothers me that we happen to luck out in a way and have these talented players but they don't seem to care enough about the rest of the team when they ask for the moon.

 

[ULF_55]

If Matthews didn't get everything he asked for possibly, it just shows the team is in trouble on the next deal. I agree with the Oilers example...They wanted to be there for the long haul not worrying too much about every dollar. It just bothers me that we happen to luck out in a way and have these talented players but they don't seem to care enough about the rest of the team when they ask for the moon.

Tavares just has to be utilized in a manner where the team gains the most benefit.

If that is the 1st. or 3rd. line so be it.

His best season was with the RW marner.

 

[Racer88]

It's been 4 years with JT...are we that much better than we were in the 2017 playoffs?

We have the same results since the 2017 playoffs so I would say that any improvement really doesn’t mean much………they haven’t learned to win in the playoffs when the intensity ramps up

Our ability to re-up Matthews and Nylander will also be tied to Jake Muzzin and TJ Brodie exiting that same summer, so it's still doable. Then the next year Tavares comes off the books and if there's any appetite to keep him I'd imagine he's coming back at only a steep discount. Crisis averted.

It might be doable but unless we show some improvement and some sort of success is there really any point in giving these guys an increase in pay

 

[notDatsyuk]

I don't know how they made these offers when JT specifically said he did not want to pick the team based on salary but its future. I read an article that the leafs didn't even talk money until AFTER he told them he was coming here. So where exactly did these other teams have a chance to make those offers? I think it's just PR from someone at MLSE trying to make $11M seem like a bargain.

It also entirely likely that those offers were made largely as PR by the other teams, as I think pretty much everyone knew he was coming here.

Particularly as far as Islanders were concerned, since he had told them he would re-sign there after the season, then promptly declared as a free agent. Lou could have offered $15M, knowing he wouldn't have to pay up.

 

[Martin Skoula]

what else can they do with the limited cap space due to signing JT and overpaying the 3 rfa's but half ass the rest of roster ?

NYR is paying Panarin more money for less playoff production and seems to be doing fine. Florida is paying Bob 10 mil for nothing and added several expensive pieces like Giroux this deadline.

You're acting like its 11 mil in dead cap when it's maybe a 3 mil overpayment for what Tavares brings to the table.

 

[hotpaws]

NYR is paying Panarin more money for less playoff production and seems to be doing fine. Florida is paying Bob 10 mil for nothing and added several expensive pieces like Giroux this deadline.

You're acting like its 11 mil in dead cap when it's maybe a 3 mil overpayment for what Tavares brings to the table.

i'm acting like having 33m tied up in 3 forwards is a major hinderance in filling out a quality lineup especially since one of them is no where close to delivering on his cap hit

you're acting like we've been winning cups since JT was signed

 

[Trapper]

i'm acting like having 33m tied up in 3 forwards is a major hinderance in filling out a quality lineup especially since one of them is no where close to delivering on his cap hit

you're acting like we've been winning cups since JT was signed

People don’t get it.
As I’ve said in another post look at it this way.

Toronto: Matthews Marner Nylander vs.
Tampa: Stamkos Point Kucherov

Toronto: Tavares vs.
Tampa: Palat, Killorn, Cirelli, Gourde (gone), Paul (paid mid tier)

The rest of the forwards not A or B tier.

In a cap flat world, you can pay 3 guys for Tavares.
It might have been a good move at the start, but the situation and cap changed.
It was borderline to begin with but is no longer feasible.

 

[A1LeafNation]

So what’s the value of not as good?
If Matthews makes 13/14 million next time, I’d Nylander demanding 9.5 equivalent enough as not as good. Nylander is now putting up Tavares points.

Trading Nylander is nothing equivalent to trading Kadri. Even Kadri trade doesn’t matter if we got a solid long term piece back. Which we didn’t.

People freak about trading x and losing. It depends what key piece you are smart enough to trade for. We aren’t winning now with it.
The only thing I worried about Kadri winning the Cup is how much more paranoid it would make an already paranoid fanbase.

Trad3 him if value is there, but it's exactly like trading a high-end secondary scorer.

Kessel, Bozak, Kadri all went on to win cups in secondary roles. The problem wasn't the player, it was the Leafs.

 

[Menzinger]

If Matthews didn't get everything he asked for possibly, it just shows the team is in trouble on the next deal. I agree with the Oilers example...They wanted to be there for the long haul not worrying too much about every dollar. It just bothers me that we happen to luck out in a way and have these talented players but they don't seem to care enough about the rest of the team when they ask for the moon.

With a player of Matthews caliber you basically just have to offer what they want, and hope they end up giving you a break.

I get being frustrated when they don't; I certainly am. But it's just the way it goes sometimes. Either pay the guy or let him walk.

 

[Menzinger]

People don’t get it.
As I’ve said in another post look at it this way.

Toronto: Matthews Marner Nylander vs.
Tampa: Stamkos Point Kucherov

Toronto: Tavares vs.
Tampa: Palat, Killorn, Cirelli, Gourde (gone), Paul (paid mid tier)

The rest of the forwards not A or B tier.

In a cap flat world, you can pay 3 guys for Tavares.
It might have been a good move at the start, but the situation and cap changed.
It was borderline to begin with but is no longer feasible.

The way around this, even with a re-signed Nylander is to just ride things out a season and then let Tavares walk (or signed to a much cheaper extension).

 

[Racer88]

The way around this, even with a re-signed Nylander is to just ride things out a season and then let Tavares walk (or signed to a much cheaper extension).

Don’t we have 3 more years to ride it out before Tavares is done

 

[Trapper]

The way around this, even with a re-signed Nylander is to just ride things out a season and then let Tavares walk (or signed to a much cheaper extension).

That could solve the JT but again what is Nylander going to want UFA?

Don’t forget, his cap is 6.9 but his salary is 7.5. He missed 2 month and was paid 10 million in his first year.

So you are starting at 7.5. Do you really want to go back to 3 10 million again? I also wouldn’t want to deal with him.

In addition to waiting out Tavares, I would be looking for a new core player for Nylander I can get signed for 6 years now. Like a 2C Cirelli. Like a Nichushkin. 4/5 x 6 years.

 

[ER89]

Yeah, the return and impact on the team is the only thing that matters.

The players, all of them, are rentals, and they aren't the goal, the Cup is the goal.

If you could trade for Shesterkin who is off limit? Matthews, that about it. He's the goal producer, assists are nice but they don't determine the winner.

I love William but I'd trade him for a shesty, sorokin, Helly etc. Any piece we trade we gotta get back an equivalent player not dimes for a dollar

 

[hotpaws]

People don’t get it.
As I’ve said in another post look at it this way.

Toronto: Matthews Marner Nylander vs.
Tampa: Stamkos Point Kucherov

Toronto: Tavares vs.
Tampa: Palat, Killorn, Cirelli, Gourde (gone), Paul (paid mid tier)

The rest of the forwards not A or B tier.

In a cap flat world, you can pay 3 guys for Tavares.
It might have been a good move at the start, but the situation and cap changed.
It was borderline to begin with but is no longer feasible.

they don't want to get it , they look at JT's contract , believe he's unmovable so they'll die on the stance the signing was perfect and he's not a problem

 

[CelticDruid]

Don’t we have 3 more years to ride it out before Tavares is done

Can't wait till his contract is done and Matty is Captain.

 

[ULF_55]

they don't want to get it , they look at JT's contract , believe he's unmovable so they'll die on the stance the signing was perfect and he's not a problem

Actually, I'd guess more look at his contract and see the NMC and understand the team is powerless to do anything.

Whatever happens is up to Tavares, with his buy-out proof contract.

 

[hotpaws]

Actually, I'd guess more look at his contract and see the NMC and understand the team is powerless to do anything.

Whatever happens is up to Tavares, with his buy-out proof contract.

the team isn't powerless since few if any players would want to stay in a situation where there no longer wanted and this isn't the market to be making 11m and regressing while the team keeps getting knocked out early

if Dubas doesn't have the balls to speak to JT then Shanny needs to step in and have that conversation with him , if he doesn't want to give a list then get the company paid insiders to start subtly dumping on him , the fans are already souring on him and it wouldn't take much to get them to start riding him during the game

 

[Trapper]

Actually, I'd guess more look at his contract and see the NMC and understand the team is powerless to do anything.

Whatever happens is up to Tavares, with his buy-out proof contract.

Just because you can’t do something today doesn’t mean you’re powerless.
This team should absolutely be preparing for the next phase now.
I would commit to 2 high priced forwards.
Matthews and Marner.
Nylander is fine today but I have no desire to pay his next contract. I would be looking for a 2C Cirelli type and lock him up long term at less than Nylander now. 5 mil/6year?

Then address goaltending and be on the lookout for a core D piece .

Then you have:
Matthews - Marner
2C

Rielly - New D
Goal

3 up front, 3 in the back.
Draft some D, prepare players like Knies,Amirov and Robertson to assume future roles and wait for JT contract to expire. That’s what I would be doing.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

the team isn't powerless since few if any players would want to stay in a situation where there no longer wanted and this isn't the market to be making 11m and regressing while the team keeps getting knocked out early

if Dubas doesn't have the balls to speak to JT then Shanny needs to step in and have that conversation with him , if he doesn't want to give a list then get the company paid insiders to start subtly dumping on him , the fans are already souring on him and it wouldn't take much to get them to start riding him during the game

If anything positive were to come out of forcing JT off the team it would be that maybe we won't be in the running again for an over priced UFA from somewhere else. It just might be an insurance policy against stupidity. Also, if Dubas gets fired at some point the new GM can say that's not the way we do business now. Our word is our bond...blah blah.
That's why I like the NFL....you suck? you're out. None of this albatross contract stuff for ages. If you're not pulling your cap weight...bye.

 

[Stephen]

If anything positive were to come out of forcing JT off the team it would be that maybe we won't be in the running again for an over priced UFA from somewhere else. It just might be an insurance policy against stupidity. Also, if Dubas gets fired at some point the new GM can say that's not the way we do business now. Our word is our bond...blah blah.
That's why I like the NFL....you suck? you're out. None of this albatross contract stuff for ages. If you're not pulling your cap weight...bye.

I don't mind a massive UFA add in theory but the hockey fit has to be right. With John Tavares, his play style just doesn't mesh all that well with what they're trying to do throughout the lineup and the fit was more about the brand name and homecoming storyline.

 

[ULF_55]

Just because you can’t do something today doesn’t mean you’re powerless.
This team should absolutely be preparing for the next phase now.
I would commit to 2 high priced forwards.
Matthews and Marner.
Nylander is fine today but I have no desire to pay his next contract. I would be looking for a 2C Cirelli type and lock him up long term at less than Nylander now. 5 mil/6year?

Then address goaltending and be on the lookout for a core D piece .

Then you have:
Matthews - Marner
2C

Rielly - New D
Goal

3 up front, 3 in the back.
Draft some D, prepare players like Knies,Amirov and Robertson to assume future roles and wait for JT contract to expire. That’s what I would be doing.

But none of that has anything to do with Tavares' contract.

As far as commiting the Backstrom and Ovechkin sure, as long as Ovechkin keeps scoring it works out.

 

[hotpaws]

If anything positive were to come out of forcing JT off the team it would be that maybe we won't be in the running again for an over priced UFA from somewhere else. It just might be an insurance policy against stupidity. Also, if Dubas gets fired at some point the new GM can say that's not the way we do business now. Our word is our bond...blah blah.
That's why I like the NFL....you suck? you're out. None of this albatross contract stuff for ages. If you're not pulling your cap weight...bye.

Players don't give a damn what happens to an underperforming teammate , even if they're buddies they've been conditioned since kids to know that the weak get cut or in Johnny's case the over paid need to be moved to benefit the team ,

The players want to win and i'll guarantee not one would shed a tear if JT is forced out and his cap hit makes the team better , Dubas has turned this team into a touchy feely woke country club and he's wasting the best young Leafs core i've seen since the Sittler days .