John Tavares Discussion

[therealkoho]

The Tavares / Nylander line has been a problem for a while now as both JT and Willy reached 8 games without a goal while leaking goals against at a alarming number. JT is up to 9 games now.

I don't understand why Keefe refuses to address this and at least try something different.

A simply solution would be to flip Marner and Nylander and go back to what has worked in the past.

It could be because Auston wants Mitch and not Willie and what Auston wants Auston gets. The Leafs mgmnt is scared to death he's going to walk as soon as other teams(read LA) has a chance to talk to him.

 

[IPS]

It could be because Auston wants Mitch and not Willie and what Auston wants Auston gets. The Leafs mgmnt is scared to death he's going to walk as soon as other teams(read LA) has a chance to talk to him.

3rd best offense in the league and Tavares and Nylander are not far off at all from a PPG. No need to make a mountain out of a molehill. Besides, who really gives a shit how the production goes in the regular season. If the postseason hits and Nylander puts up another PPG+ performance, all is well.

 

[Marmoset]

He isn't the game changing talent he's being paid/expected to be. He's a good center but not 11 million dollars good. If he was paid 7-8 million, I wouldn't have complaints.

I think this is something management should have been planning for when they signed him (and maybe they did). He's 31 approaching 32. There are many high level players who start to tail off at that age, and many who have that happen much younger. Like you say, if he was making closer to 7-8M there would be far fewer complaints, and we would have invested those dollars in improving the roster elsewhere.

You could give a player 15M per season but it wouldn't change that many players cannot maintain that elite level once they hit a certain age.

Maybe Tavares has another gear, but maybe this somewhat lesser version of play is the extent of what he is capable of now. Which is still a very good player, but not an elite one. I do think he was definitely playing at a higher level when he came to Toronto.

This is going to become very common in the NHL with so many big contracts being handed out to guys in their mid-late 20s that take them well into their thirties. Most of those guys will not be worth the dollars in the back half of the contracts. It's not the fault of the players for simply getting older and not being able to do what they used to be able to. It's the fault of the teams handing out the contracts. I won't be surprised if everyone is talking about Morgan Rielly the same way in a few years, although perhaps not since his dollar amount is quite a bit less than Tavares. But what are the odds Rielly is worth his salary towards the end of his deal?

 

[Dekes For Days]

"McDavid hasn't been great either" ..... doesn't really change the point.

The point is it's largely meaningless.

For the record, Tavares is tied for the 9th most 5v5 points among centers this season.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Back when Sundin was here, and turning in 78 points seasons each year, Leaf fans squealed with delight and called him "elite".

It's only now that we have both Matthews and Marner on the team, that 78 points looks bad. LOL. JT is more than fine.

 

[hotpaws]

Back when Sundin was here, and turning in 78 points seasons each year, Leaf fans squealed with delight and called him "elite".

It's only now that we have both Matthews and Marner on the team, that 78 points looks bad. LOL. JT is more than fine.

JT is tied for 48th in scoring , at 11m per I wouldn’t call that fine .

But hey it’s Johnny so it’s not his fault , it’s his teammates who let him down .

 

[ITM]

look at that an English Lit grad , lol

i'll make it easy for you , Dubas this season and if he's lucky next season to advance this team or he'll be out the door and no amount of spinning or deflecting will save him

Well, it would be Philosophy you might pick up a modest understanding of fallacious reasoning. Honestly, can't recall a whole lot of fallacies taught in Chaucer. And I bet you could make it easy for me where I'm going to be wrong there as well as part of that whole skewed Facts and Integrity of Academic Discipline Fan Club that needs to be corrected to your strong preference. But don't let little things like truth and facts and in my previous response, respect, get in the way of your cognitive dissonance.

Remember this if you like: Brendan Shanahan was part of a very difficult trade that solidified Bowman's Red Wings into champions. No one knows what it takes, from an experiential standpoint the twofold necessity of being patient for as long as it takes until it's apparent that the right change needs to happen. Your reasoning isn't the type of reasoning any GM would ever consider. Thank God. No, what will happen is that Shanahan will assess the club's performance against Dubas' provision. If the performance is egregious, moves will be made. But here's where remembering Shanahan's experience to Detroit and in Detroit should warrant your attention:

Shanahan was acquired after a record 62 win season in Detroit. Shanahan's also arguably the best power forward to ever play the game. That's a rare synthesis of experience we should have some faith in when it comes to championship building. Not saying blind faith, but it's equally blind to ignore history and the time and circumstance that has to happen in order to win the Cup.

Your wish isn't reality anymore than false comparisons are valid comparisons or English Lit. is Phil. But you're welcome to lol your way into what VR floats your boat, Sport. Who knows, maybe your wish will come true and irrespective of what Toronto does, Dubas will be fired?

Can only hope right?

 

[Holymakinaw]

JT is tied for 48th in scoring , at 11m per I wouldn’t call that fine .

But hey it’s Johnny so it’s not his fault , it’s his teammates who let him down .

Nylander has DEFINITELY been letting JT down all year long, playing with a total lack of interest half the time and disappearing for long stretches. Tavares is one of the hardest working guys out there every night, but he can't do it all by himself.

 

[hotpaws]

Nylander has DEFINITELY been letting JT down all year long, playing with a total lack of interest half the time and disappearing for long stretches. Tavares is one of the hardest working guys out there every night, but he can't do it all by himself.

Yup poor Johnny , I weep like a small child watching him work his ass off trying to keep up with the pace of the game only to be left behind .

He’s starting to play more and more like a slower Hyman and that’s not a good thing for 11m .

 

[ITM]

This all day.
Never seen a fan base accept losing so easily. It's like they've already convinced themselves of it and are already attempting to be at peace with it.
So weird.

Speaking for myself, I'm not comfortable with losing in the least. I wasn't comfortable watching the Gilmour led Leafs lose, or Sundin's. But we speak respectfully of both those iterations and we absolutely DO QUALIFY why they're both great players absent Stanley Cups in Toronto, do we not?

Gilmour: If Kerry didn't screw us over...
Sundin: Never gave him the depth he deserved...

I don't count that type of thinking as biased, I count that type of thinking as attentive to events outside of the club's control and valid reasons that contributed to loss.

I think there's another distinction to be made in that neither of those clubs had the raw foundation this club has. So if we couple the truth of the situation that is Maple Leafs history, we are in a different era with different circumstances. And if we happen to lose to a prime Lightning, and it takes three or four more years to punch through, just as their prime ebbs, that's not acceptance of loss, that's endurance and patience and foresight.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Yup poor Johnny , I weep like a small child watching him work his ass off trying to keep up with the pace of the game only to be left behind .

He’s starting to play more and more like a slower Hyman and that’s not a good thing for 11m .

Aw, poor spoiled Leaf fan. It's rough, eh?

 

[hotpaws]

Aw, poor spoiled Leaf fan. It's rough, eh?

Yup , too much playoff success breeds complacency.

 

[Mohar Ikram]

Speaking for myself, I'm not comfortable with losing in the least. I wasn't comfortable watching the Gilmour led Leafs lose, or Sundin's. But we speak respectfully of both those iterations and we absolutely DO QUALIFY why they're both great players absent Stanley Cups in Toronto, do we not?

Gilmour: If Kerry didn't screw us over...
Sundin: Never gave him the depth he deserved...

I don't count that type of thinking as biased, I count that type of thinking as attentive to events outside of the club's control and valid reasons that contributed to loss.

I think there's another distinction to be made in that neither of those clubs had the raw foundation this club has. So if we couple the truth of the situation that is Maple Leafs history, we are in a different era with different circumstances. And if we happen to lose to a prime Lightning, and it takes three or four more years to punch through, just as their prime ebbs, that's not acceptance of loss, that's endurance and patience and foresight.

Gilmour and Sundin bar despite no SCF with the team were high. They are "that close" to the final for each of them (1993 and 2002). I don't think even this core could match that.... for now.

 

[ACC1224]

Speaking for myself, I'm not comfortable with losing in the least. I wasn't comfortable watching the Gilmour led Leafs lose, or Sundin's. But we speak respectfully of both those iterations and we absolutely DO QUALIFY why they're both great players absent Stanley Cups in Toronto, do we not?

Gilmour: If Kerry didn't screw us over...
Sundin: Never gave him the depth he deserved...

I don't count that type of thinking as biased, I count that type of thinking as attentive to events outside of the club's control and valid reasons that contributed to loss.

I think there's another distinction to be made in that neither of those clubs had the raw foundation this club has. So if we couple the truth of the situation that is Maple Leafs history, we are in a different era with different circumstances. And if we happen to lose to a prime Lightning, and it takes three or four more years to punch through, just as their prime ebbs, that's not acceptance of loss, that's endurance and patience and foresight.

It’s poor building IMO.

 

[ITM]

It’s poor building IMO.

There's merit to that, I agree. I don't know if my posts pre-Tavares are accessible but I recall noting the danger to chemistry (not anticipating a problem in a pre-Covid NHL) never mind the cost to our bottom line.

On paper our defense - now - is the best - I think - since Quinn. Health, timing and seizing opportunity in fractions (eg injuries to our opponent, not taking bad penalties) are going to play heavy factors for success.

But we've got too many in the fanbase pushing a different fatalism that discounts things outside of our control. That should be an unequally unwelcome bias in the room along with any other bias.

 

[ITM]

Gilmour and Sundin bar despite no SCF with the team were high. They are "that close" to the final for each of them (1993 and 2002). I don't think even this core could match that.... for now.

Agreed. But we qualify them as being great Maple Leafs without Cup success. That type of reasonable qualification should be afforded to this group as should the time to mature that other great teams have had.

 

[zeke]

Sundin didn't make it out of the 1st round until he was 27.

 

[hotpaws]

Sundin didn't make it out of the 1st round until he was 27.

Johnny’s 31 and has the fifth highest cap hit in the league , shouldn’t we expect him to get to at least the conference finals by this stage in his career ?

 

[Stephen]

Back when Sundin was here, and turning in 78 points seasons each year, Leaf fans squealed with delight and called him "elite".

It's only now that we have both Matthews and Marner on the team, that 78 points looks bad. LOL. JT is more than fine.

Back in 2001-02, Sundin scored 80 points and placed 4th in league scoring.

 

[Stephen]

Sundin didn't make it out of the 1st round until he was 27.

I think a lot of the anxiety with the 5 straight playoffs exits forgets the Leafs were somewhat ahead of schedule early on. So in 2017, they could have easily spent another year in the basement, picked up another too 5 pick and started their climb in 2018 or 2019. But because they were early and added Tavares and Marleau there was the hope they could be Chicago Part 2.

 

[zeke]

Johnny’s 31 and has the fifth highest cap hit in the league , shouldn’t we expect him to get to at least the conference finals by this stage in his career ?

I guess what bothers me here is that I'm fairly certain you were one of the ones celebrating the Tavares signing and saying it was nice to finally have a real #1C unlike the flawed Matthews.

Some of us knew from the start that the price tag was never going to be efficient even in year one of the deal, let alone year 4.

 

[hotpaws]

I guess what bothers me here is that I'm fairly certain you were one of the ones celebrating the Tavares signing and saying it was nice to finally have a real #1C unlike the flawed Matthews.

Some of us knew from the start that the price tag was never going to be efficient even in year one of the deal, let alone year 4.

go back and you’ll see I was never a JT fan and that was long before he signed with the Leafs

Didn’t think he’d sign here and I don’t think I said much when he did over fear of being attacked , lol .

 

[Holymakinaw]

I guess what bothers me here is that I'm fairly certain you were one of the ones celebrating the Tavares signing and saying it was nice to finally have a real #1C unlike the flawed Matthews.

Some of us knew from the start that the price tag was never going to be efficient even in year one of the deal, let alone year 4.

As far as I'm concerned, who gives a sh*t what he makes? Who cares what ANY of our players make? Are we not one of the best teams in the league? Do we not have one of the best 1/2 punches at Centre out there? Are we not 40-18-5? It seems to be WORKING. The bean counters that MLSE employs can worry about the salary cap stuff.

 

[zeke]

go back and you’ll see I never a JT fan and that was long before he signed with the Leafs

Didn’t think he’d sign here and I don’t think I said much when he did over fear of being attacked , lol .

Fair enough.

Myself I always knew the signing was always going to be borderline value wise.

Heck, the fact is he's still giving us legit solid 1st line production in year 4 of the deal....that's actually probably better than I thought.

 

[hotpaws]

Yup.

And as far as I'm concerned, who gives a sh*t what he makes? Who cares what ANY of our players make? Are we not one of the best teams in the league? Do we not have one of the best 1/2 punches at Centre out there? Are we not 40-18-5? It seems to be WORKING. The bean counters that MLSE employs can worry about the salary cap stuff.

Have we not been knocked out in the first rd the last 5 years ? f*** yeah , go leafs go